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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    what would you like to see Ret get in place of our support abilities and survivability? (Which is effectively, what is being nerfed the hardest here)
    Pre Nerf old Sacred Shield baseline spell for Ret.

    Call it, Divine Calling or whatever.
    Proc. Below 35% health you get an absorb shield equal to 1 + (2.8 * AP) for 15sec.
    Self Healing is increased by 20% while the shield holds. Once every 45sec.


    Major. Glyph of the Last Word - Retribution.

    Your WoG has an extra 60% chance to crit on targets at or below 35% health.


    Major. Glyph of Expelled Sins - Retribution. (replacing turn evil glyph)

    Your Turn Evil and Repentance spells are now instant cast but their CD is increased by 8 seconds.


    Minor. Glyph of Absolute Justice.

    Your PoJ no longer increases your speed by 15% (still does 5, 10 and 15 extra based on holy power), instead you cant be slowed below 85% of running speed.

    Holy Prism, Light's Hammer and Execution Sentence damage increased by mastery, haste lowers their CD.
    Last edited by Veliane; 2012-11-10 at 10:47 PM.

  2. #42
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Remind me of how pvp is being balanced around 3s and not 1v1.

  3. #43
    Its like the 3d or 4th time im talking about this.One think it came to my mind is to remove healing bonus from pvp power since some classes are unbalanced offhealers BUT to increase or sp via str so we wont go down to 30k heal we got many talents and glyphs and skills that gives us healing mechanics,and lets face it self healing was our advandage in pvp since Vanillia, now that some1 made pvp power and destroyed some classes it will be pathetic and no-brain to ruin self healing for us and enh shamans too

  4. #44
    This very same nerf makes healers beyond useless when it comes to help out DPSing.

  5. #45
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb88 View Post
    As a ret, I can crit heal my mate with selfless healer and wings for 200k+
    If they nerf paly heal then it should be selfless healer.
    Just because a class can pull crazy things with a 15-20 second setup and burning a major DPS/healing CD, doesn't mean they need nerfed. If anything, being able to pull something like that is the whole point of CDs and abilities that take time to set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazaxist View Post
    hell yeah they need a nerf... i hope their ranged attacks also affected by that..... i have been killed by RET from 20 yards away... such BS. ret is a MELEE class damn it..
    So how long were you standing there staring at him while he pelted you with Judgment and Exorcism? The only way you were killed by a Ret at range is if you were trying to get away from a fight that had already gone bad for you. Ret has improved ranged capacity than most melee, it's true. But we also don't have what would be called a "true" (i.e. instant) gap closer, so a larger ranged toolkit plus our ability to clear movement impairing effects makes up for that (in theory).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Just because a class can pull crazy things with a 15-20 second setup and burning a major DPS/healing CD, doesn't mean they need nerfed. If anything, being able to pull something like that is the whole point of CDs and abilities that take time to set up.



    So how long were you standing there staring at him while he pelted you with Judgment and Exorcism? The only way you were killed by a Ret at range is if you were trying to get away from a fight that had already gone bad for you. Ret has improved ranged capacity than most melee, it's true. But we also don't have what would be called a "true" (i.e. instant) gap closer, so a larger ranged toolkit plus our ability to clear movement impairing effects makes up for that (in theory).
    Right, and rets cannot deal out damage or take damage like other plate classes can. It's a tradeoff: while they cannot faceroll up close like a warrior or a DK, they have the opportunity to kite.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Right, and rets cannot deal out damage or take damage like other plate classes can. It's a tradeoff: while they cannot faceroll up close like a warrior or a DK, they have the opportunity to kite.
    dks are very effective kiters as well.

    they are just as fragile as rets, but have vastly better sustained.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  8. #48
    this just in.

    pvppower nerf for ret is justified because of lay on hands and us being balanced around a 5 minute defensive cooldown.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5847988073#3
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8073?page=2#33
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8073?page=3#48

    more proof blizz devs have NO idea what they are doing.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  9. #49
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I really hate this. Indirectly nerfing/buffing something that doesnt need it makes pvp balance a hell.

    Spriest healing is too much? Nerf all hybird healing!
    Warrior tanks take too much damage? Buff all warrior survival!

  10. #50
    I actually wouldn't mind this change if they did something with our damage. And they can't say shit about divine protection and lay on hands and all that shit..

  11. #51
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    this just in.

    pvppower nerf for ret is justified because of lay on hands and us being balanced around a 5 minute defensive cooldown.

    more proof blizz devs have NO idea what they are doing.
    They also said that this is just something that is being tested, and is in no way final as of yet.

    That being said, I know they've pushed through bad changes that people have pointed out previously. For the game as a whole, not just paladins. But really, this over-the-top hyperbole isn't going to help anybody.

    As for what can fix it if this change goes through (and leaves our healing somewhat lacking), we already have the relevant knob to turn. They can just up the healing bonus that Sword of Light provides us.

    Any other thoughts or ways to fix this if it causes an issue?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    They also said that this is just something that is being tested, and is in no way final as of yet.

    That being said, I know they've pushed through bad changes that people have pointed out previously. For the game as a whole, not just paladins. But really, this over-the-top hyperbole isn't going to help anybody.

    As for what can fix it if this change goes through (and leaves our healing somewhat lacking), we already have the relevant knob to turn. They can just up the healing bonus that Sword of Light provides us.

    Any other thoughts or ways to fix this if it causes an issue?
    i guess we are reading this differently. from what i understand the dev is saying that the healing output of ret paladins is as big of a balance issue as the healing output of shadowpriests. which is completely ludicrous. and that our offhealing devalued our defensive cooldowns, one of which can't even be used in arena and the other is on a 5 minute cooldown?!

    cata ret's offhealing wasn't by intention, it was because of shoddy spec design on blizz's part which ret's adapted and worked with. right now we ARE designed to offheal, and our offheal comes with limitations based on cooldowns, ramp up and resource cost, as it should. caster hybrids have no such limitations. we need some kind of compensation for this blanket nerf, either survivability wise ( un nerf sacred shield, give us cata sacred shield back) or damage wise since our survivability is also based around our active systems of self healing and since our damage is kind of mediocre our off healing is half our worth to a team.

    tuning sword of light higher to offset the loss of healing from pvppower might work, but i very much doubt it.

    raising the mana costs of heals for non healer specs, that would particularly allow caster hybrids to keep their potent heals, but also punish them resource wise if they used it to much would make far more sense.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    more proof blizz devs have NO idea what they are doing.
    Plate, heals and bubble? OMG

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i guess we are reading this differently. from what i understand the dev is saying that the healing output of ret paladins is as big of a balance issue as the healing output of shadowpriests. which is completely ludicrous. and that our offhealing devalued our defensive cooldowns, one of which can't even be used in arena and the other is on a 5 minute cooldown?!

    cata ret's offhealing wasn't by intention, it was because of shoddy spec design on blizz's part which ret's adapted and worked with. right now we ARE designed to offheal, and our offheal comes with limitations based on cooldowns, ramp up and resource cost, as it should. caster hybrids have no such limitations. we need some kind of compensation for this blanket nerf, either survivability wise ( un nerf sacred shield, give us cata sacred shield back) or damage wise since our survivability is also based around our active systems of self healing and since our damage is kind of mediocre our off healing is half our worth to a team.

    tuning sword of light higher to offset the loss of healing from pvppower might work, but i very much doubt it.

    raising the mana costs of heals for non healer specs, that would particularly allow caster hybrids to keep their potent heals, but also punish them resource wise if they used it to much would make far more sense.
    Yes, I'm really disturbed with this planned PvP power nerf; it reeks of lazy design. Are they seriously expecting us to believe that all offhealers need their healing nerfed by the exact same amount, and that all healers need their damage nerfed by the exact same amount.... lol unlikely at best. I really hope that tweaks to compensate the less overpowered parties involved are announced at the same time as the nerf; I would be sorely disappointed if the nerf goes live and then several months later the overnerfed specs gets some help... increasing mana cost for caster offhealers and for damage abilities of healers who are doing too much damage is drastically smarter solution.

  15. #55
    I'm starting to feel like WoW is damaged, I miss how everything used to be less cookie cutter and more customized

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    They also said that this is just something that is being tested, and is in no way final as of yet.
    It looks pretty final.

    Besides it doesn't matter, it is justified. Ret is fine in pvp.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @JeffLukka because we think Ret in PvP is fine, just with too much healing. Often players don't want a response - they want to argue.

    This statement alone means its pointless coming up with ways to compensate ret, the nerf is going to go live (the builds have started being tagged as release) and they believe that ret is in such a good place that a nerf to their main reason to exist in pvp will have little effect. Hey I guess if your at the bottom, nerfing them some more wont make a difference, not like they can get any lower?

    If ret is fine in pvp I guess on a scale of 1 - 10 warrior and fmages are over 9000.
    Last edited by Palatinus; 2012-11-18 at 03:24 PM.

  17. #57
    Oh come on manthalis u already know how blizz thinks , Nerf off heal paladins no buff for his sustain dmg , Patch is live , Paladins Rages , blizz : Retribution paladin seems fine right now , 2 weeks after Stealth buff + blue post

  18. #58
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petro View Post
    I'm starting to feel like WoW is damaged, I miss how everything used to be less cookie cutter and more customized
    "Customized" does not mean "viable". In the previous talent designs (i.e. the "trees"), there were a number of talents that you were required to take in order to be viable, as well as quite a few 'trap' talents that looked good, but would really be wasted (depending on your chosen role). The current design is better, because you would essentially have to completely skip a talent tier in order to make a 'wrong choice'. I'm not saying the talents on each tier are equal, but the theory is sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    It looks pretty final.

    Besides it doesn't matter, it is justified. Ret is fine in pvp.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @JeffLukka because we think Ret in PvP is fine, just with too much healing. Often players don't want a response - they want to argue.

    This statement alone means its pointless coming up with ways to compensate ret, the nerf is going to go live (the builds have started being tagged as release) and they believe that ret is in such a good place that a nerf to their main reason to exist in pvp will have little effect. Hey I guess if your at the bottom, nerfing them some more wont make a difference, not like they can get any lower?

    If ret is fine in pvp I guess on a scale of 1 - 10 warrior and fmages are over 9000.
    I honestly don't PvP much, so my general knowledge of Paladin PvP issues come from these forums. If something is a common trend, I usually consider it an issue with merit (I take that with a grain of salt, because everything on the internet tends to be a bit exaggerated).

    However, I do know that the 'defensive cooldowns' enumerated in the forum thread is a bit bunk. I'm going to look at this from a completely unrestricted point of view.

    Divine Shield, quite honestly, needs to be removed from the game. A total immunity ability that also enables you to still act? Ice Block is more balanced in the fact that you render yourself unable to act. But as of now, it's not something that can be utilized offensively due to the 50% reduced damage caused while it's active.

    Lay on Hands might be good to surprise people. But I honestly can't see it being used to counter burst that well. Burst, as I know of it, is focused on one target. LoH would bring a person back to (or close to) full, so all the enemy would have to do is focus for another few seconds. Please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Hand of Protection only offers full immunity from physical damage, can be dispelled by standard offensive dispels, and renders physical attacks impossible for the duration.

    Of the above three abilities, one of them is pure healing, the other two facilitate healing because they either lock out our primary damaging abilities or reduce our damage output. They also apply Forbearance, preventing a target from receiving the two target-able spells from any other paladin you're grouped with.

    The only other personal defensive CD that we have available would be Divine Protection. Which I think is a good personal CD. Hand of Sacrifice is a good external CD, despite the fact that it can be dispelled.

    If my analysis of our defensive CDs in PvP is wrong at all, please let me know where I went wrong. Might our off-heals be too good? Perhaps. But flat-out removing PvP Power from our healing I think is a bit too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrlx View Post
    Oh come on manthalis u already know how blizz thinks , Nerf off heal paladins no buff for his sustain dmg , Patch is live , Paladins Rages , blizz : Retribution paladin seems fine right now , 2 weeks after Stealth buff + blue post
    But jumping down their throats about it doesn't get us anywhere constructive, does it? They're far more likely to just dismiss our concerns that way.
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2012-11-19 at 02:52 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    I honestly don't PvP much, so my general knowledge of Paladin PvP issues come from these forums. If something is a common trend, I usually consider it an issue with merit (I take that with a grain of salt, because everything on the internet tends to be a bit exaggerated).

    However, I do know that the 'defensive cooldowns' enumerated in the forum thread is a bit bunk. I'm going to look at this from a completely unrestricted point of view.

    Divine Shield, quite honestly, needs to be removed from the game. A total immunity ability that also enables you to still act? Ice Block is more balanced in the fact that you render yourself unable to act. But as of now, it's not something that can be utilized offensively due to the 50% reduced damage caused while it's active.

    Lay on Hands might be good to surprise people. But I honestly can't see it being used to counter burst that well. Burst, as I know of it, is focused on one target. LoH would bring a person back to (or close to) full, so all the enemy would have to do is focus for another few seconds. Please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Hand of Protection only offers full immunity from physical damage, can be dispelled by standard offensive dispels, and renders physical attacks impossible for the duration.

    Of the above three abilities, one of them is pure healing, the other two facilitate healing because they either lock out our primary damaging abilities or reduce our damage output. They also apply Forbearance, preventing a target from receiving the two target-able spells from any other paladin you're grouped with.

    The only other personal defensive CD that we have available would be Divine Protection. Which I think is a good personal CD. Hand of Sacrifice is a good external CD, despite the fact that it can be dispelled.

    If my analysis of our defensive CDs in PvP is wrong at all, please let me know where I went wrong.
    Yes all of that is correct. Though I would note that Lay on hands cannot be used in rated PvP. (It is getting removed from RBGs in 5.1).

    I don't think you can flat out remove Divine shield, its too iconic. One step they could take though is to maybe increase the cd to 10 minutes. This would remove it from rated PvP, while keeping it the same for pve. Add in a glyph (cd reduction glyphs still dont allow spells into rated pvp) to reduce cd back to 5 minutes. At least this way it is still the game, hardly effects pve and would finally allow blizzard to start balancing paladins properly in rated pvp rather than around one all-mighty defensive spell that keeps getting new counters every expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Might our off-heals be too good? Perhaps. But flat-out removing PvP Power from our healing I think is a bit too far.
    This. It is quite a big change, for everyone saying that they should be allowed to do it because you can't rely on something they deem broken to balance the spec, well there is nothing to stop them fixing both things at once, but they aren't. They believe ret in pvp is fine, which it clearly isn't - even the best ret paladins are close to quitting/re-rolling if they haven't already done so (e.g. vanguards and playing enhance more if this change goes live). There's very little we can do tbh. They won't use ladders as feedback, since ret is pretty much nowhere on that front, they haven't listened to any of our feedback since cata about how bad relying on off-healing to be competitive in pvp is and it's pretty obvious from the state of PvP now how much they use betas and PTR's to balance the game.

    I guess the only option, which I will not pay them for (sub) is for them to somehow see it during 5.1-5.2, or worse, this whole expansion as a 're-design' of how the spec plays will need a new expansion.
    Last edited by Palatinus; 2012-11-19 at 03:39 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Yes all of that is correct. Though I would note that Lay on hands cannot be used in rated PvP. (It is getting removed from RBGs in 5.1).

    I don't think you can flat out remove Divine shield, its too iconic. One step they could take though is to maybe increase the cd to 10 minutes. This would remove it from rated PvP, while keeping it the same for pve. Add in a glyph (cd reduction glyphs still dont allow spells into rated pvp) to reduce cd back to 5 minutes. At least this way it is still the game, hardly effects pve and would finally allow blizzard to start balancing paladins properly in rated pvp rather than around one all-mighty defensive spell that keeps getting new counters every expansion.



    This. It is quite a big change, for everyone saying that they should be allowed to do it because you can't rely on something they deem broken to balance the spec, well there is nothing to stop them fixing both things at once, but they aren't. They believe ret in pvp is fine, which it clearly isn't - even the best ret paladins are close to quitting/re-rolling if they haven't already done so (e.g. vanguards and playing enhance more if this change goes live). There's very little we can do tbh. They won't use ladders as feedback, since ret is pretty much nowhere on that front, they haven't listened to any of our feedback since cata about how bad relying on off-healing to be competitive in pvp is and it's pretty obvious from the state of PvP now how much they use betas and PTR's to balance the game.

    I guess the only option, which I will not pay them for (sub) is for them to somehow see it during 5.1-5.2, or worse, this whole expansion as a 're-design' of how the spec plays will need a new expansion.
    Yeah, without our current off-healing, Ret is almost quite literally back to its Burning Crusade status... an occasionally bursty mediocre dps with some decent defensive abilities many of which, however, are meant for other people only like HoS. This entire expansion brought nothing but better off-heals.

    Our CC stayed the same at best: Repent, was taken from us after 6 years, to be made into an amazing Holy Paladin ability, which we can occasionally use in some comps. Blinding Light is a joke... a CC that breaks on damage with only a 10 yards range... what are we supposed to do a ask the enemy healer to walk over to us every 2 min and stand there, while our entire teams stops cleaving or multi DoTing?

    We finally have our snare which of course comes with a dps loss or a cc loss, which is of course painfully laughable considering snares have been given out to everybody and their pet by now. As usual, the spec is spinning its wheels, and what little viability we have once again turns out to be considered over-powered, and we will be nerfed into oblivion, and will perhaps get some mediocre resurrection in future patches as they realize that 3 HP WoGs are healing for 5% of our health.

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