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  1. #321
    Field Marshal Athura's Avatar
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    Help our paladin(s)

    Hello Paladins,

    This is your friendly monk Roschar not known for anything on these boards. (But that is beside the point)
    Today I've come to the paladins forums for a plea of help, about one of our paladins.
    The paladin's name is Mitsukai and he has been in our guild for a long time. Due to guild events, Mitsukai rerolled back to his Paladin from cata.
    He's been 90 a while now and has started on heroic progress with our guild.

    However...
    His damage is nearly always the lowest of the group. That's isn't bad per se, since somebody has to be the lowest but Mitsukai's dps is simply too low according to our officers. Since I personally like Mitsukai, I thought I'd come to the mmo champion pally forums for help.

    Here is a log of yesterday
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-waxk12qzd4omf13u/

    And this is a log of his armory
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...itsukai/simple

    The questions:
    1. Is there a way for Mitsukai to improve his dps? (Rotation wise, not using an abillity to often, using wrong abillity's)
    2. Is the dps of a ret pally super dephendent of his weapon and does that explain the dps?
    3. Or, is his dps normal for his gear and the guild officers should simply leave him be and judge if he gets his weapon (assuming 2 is a major point witch, according to mitsukai, it is)

    I would like to thank you all for taking the time to read this and if you can help out.

    -Beer throw monk
    Roschar


    P.S. If you see something for Kahuna that he can improve or doing well, feel free to post.
    Better regret something that you have done, then regretting something you haven't

  2. #322
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    I don't see anything wrong with their gear aside from the weapon being low ilvl (about 70% or so of dmg for ret is based on weapon dmg so it is extremely important), I did poke around to compare gear between your rogue and pally and found some odd things...the rogue is over expertise cap with some extra expertise reforged in and they are using a tanking leg enchant. According to armory your prot paladin doesn't exist...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
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  3. #323
    Field Marshal Athura's Avatar
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    The paladin name changed yesterday. So that might be the reason why he doesn't exist.
    But if he gets lucky with a weapon we should see the big increase in dps?

    (Nice catch of our raid rogue btw! Told him to fix that :P . )
    Edit: The other paladin http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ariare/simple
    Better regret something that you have done, then regretting something you haven't

  4. #324
    Hello everyone,
    As a JC should i be using the Haste or Str JC-specific gems? Thanks!

  5. #325

    Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Athura View Post
    Hello Paladins,
    His damage is nearly always the lowest of the group. That's isn't bad per se, since somebody has to be the lowest but Mitsukai's dps is simply too low according to our officers. Since I personally like Mitsukai, I thought I'd come to the mmo champion pally forums for help.

    The questions:
    1. Is there a way for Mitsukai to improve his dps? (Rotation wise, not using an abillity to often, using wrong abillity's)
    2. Is the dps of a ret pally super dephendent of his weapon and does that explain the dps?
    3. Or, is his dps normal for his gear and the guild officers should simply leave him be and judge if he gets his weapon (assuming 2 is a major point witch, according to mitsukai, it is)

    I would like to thank you all for taking the time to read this and if you can help out.

    -Beer throw monk
    Roschar

    P.S. If you see something for Kahuna that he can improve or doing well, feel free to post.
    Caught him in his PvP gear so I can't comment on that, as to talents, switching Tier 5 to SW should be a small dps increase, atleast according to the number crunchers. Using glyph of AW shouldnt be needed. For fights like Ji kun with adds, using Glyph of Mass Exorcisme will be better for overall damage if he's on adds.
    Glyph of Templars Verdict is also favorable from a damage reduction PoV. Glyph of Double Jepordy is a dps incrase when more then one target is present, in fights where where are some running, Glyph of Harsh Words will make sure that you can use HP on bosses.

    but from looking at the logs there are some pointers:
    1. Inquisition is up most up the time, but there are some periods where he drops it of for a longer periode of time 10-15 seconds from what I can see. It might be due to some encounter reasons, but having Inq up is important for our damage.

    2. Usage of AW, GoAK and HA can be timed to get the most out of it. If he chooses to stay with HA as tier 5 talent, he should hold AW and HA untill there`s 20second left of GoAK, to get the most out of every buff. Also Execution Sentence(ES) should be used when trinkets are procced and he has close to full stack on Ancient Power(AP). ES hits hard if you get the it lined up with AW, trinket proccs and AP. He does a good job to time his exorcisme at the end of ES for more damage output(T15 2set bonus).

    3. He can use his CD better aswell, there are some jumps when he decides to use them. During the Ji'Kun encounter there's a window of over 3 minuts where he doesnt use AW. Personally I like to:
    1. Prepot.
    2. Gain 3 HP.
    3. Get Inq up.
    4. AW and GoAK.
    5. The Shado-Pan trinket will procc during this and just as the trinket buff is to fall of, I pop ES and try to time the exorcisme debuff for the last 6 seconds of the ES ticks. This should cause ES to do a massive amount of damage, you have 8800str from the trinket, 4000str from pot, between 16-20% str increase from AP and perhaps dancing steel proc for 1650 str.

    4. Basicly he should just get the rotation and CD usage down, he has alot to gain from that.

    Somewhat accurate Timeframe:
    0-1 min: Blow all CD and continue with normal rotation
    1-2 min: Hold ES untill Shado-Pan trinkets proccs, should be about 5-10 seconds after ES comes of CD and he should have the str procc from the seconds trinket aswell here.
    2-3 min: Pop AW and continue with his rotation, use ES when it comes of CD. Shadow-Pan trinket will be proccing at the 2:20 mark, so no need waiting on it.
    3-4 min: Trinkets can be align with ES, he'll just have to test it out him self.
    4-5 min: Consider holding AW untill Goak comes of CD. Use Es of CD
    5-6 min: Start the rotation over again, pop all CD and use pot again.

    Some will probably say other things, but I find this to work good enough for now.

    And to answer the question about Ret DPS, it's far from the best, but the 5.3 patch buff is noticable and we do good enough dps. And weapons are our bread and butter.

  6. #326
    High Overlord vacor's Avatar
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    hello, I've been looking over logs and I just cant find where I can do more damage, just hoping someone can help me tighten up whatever im missing
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Vacor/simple
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iaih01o5j3s6km54/
    God forbid I see a cast bar on my target. I'm going to interrupt that cast out of fucking existence. I will rebuke that spell out of the game data, that's how I'm going to roll with my pally now.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by vacor View Post
    hello, I've been looking over logs and I just cant find where I can do more damage, just hoping someone can help me tighten up whatever im missing
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Vacor/simple
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iaih01o5j3s6km54/

    From the log you posted, I really don't see a problem with your dps. Yeah its not super high compared to some classes, but that's just how ret is. You've still got a normal weapon, no feather, and your guild is killing bosses on the slow side, so its pretty natural that your dps won't match the top ranks.

    As for advice, I'd say drop sacred shield and use selfless healer when you need it; not only is it great healing but you can use it to save other people once you get good at it. Also, Pursuit of justice really isnt very good for ret, Personally I use long arm on every fight (when i dps, which isnt often). Not a huge deal, but it might help you. As for your rotation, I'm confident you're doing it right because you wouldn't be doing that much damage if you weren't.

  8. #328
    Just wanted to share the rotation I have been using, seems to work very good.

    TV or DS 5hp
    HOTR 7 targets - sims better in my gear, focusing on haste. 34.5k atk power self buff
    HoW
    ES or LH
    Exo
    Judgment Target < 20% health or aw, don't use if crusader strike is available or we have the cs buff from t15
    TV or DS 3-4hp Target < 20% health or aw
    CS or HOTR
    TV or DS 3-4hp
    judgment

    tv is better at 2-3 targets with the cs buff

    Would like to see what other people have, always looking for increases.
    Last edited by averykey; 2013-05-28 at 03:28 PM.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    From the log you posted, I really don't see a problem with your dps. Yeah its not super high compared to some classes, but that's just how ret is. You've still got a normal weapon, no feather, and your guild is killing bosses on the slow side, so its pretty natural that your dps won't match the top ranks.

    As for advice, I'd say drop sacred shield and use selfless healer when you need it; not only is it great healing but you can use it to save other people once you get good at it. Also, Pursuit of justice really isnt very good for ret, Personally I use long arm on every fight (when i dps, which isnt often). Not a huge deal, but it might help you. As for your rotation, I'm confident you're doing it right because you wouldn't be doing that much damage if you weren't.
    PoJ is really good lol. It allows you to use 175 haste enchant on boots instead of panderan step.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    PoJ is really good lol. It allows you to use 175 haste enchant on boots instead of panderan step.
    Yeah, don't see a huge reason to use anything else.

    During SW is it still preferred to HoW - CS - How - TV repeat?

  11. #331
    ok i,m doing pretty good but i,m sure i can improve some more can a experianced pally look at my logs to see if i,m doing anything wrong that i could improve plz. pallys name is nirvkornica http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...e/?s=102&e=754 and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...e/?s=102&e=754 amoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rnica/advanced

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by pinchit View Post
    ok i,m doing pretty good but i,m sure i can improve some more can a experianced pally look at my logs to see if i,m doing anything wrong that i could improve plz. pallys name is nirvkornica http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...e/?s=102&e=754 and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...e/?s=102&e=754 amoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rnica/advanced
    What're doing with Divine Purpose ??

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    PoJ is really good lol. It allows you to use 175 haste enchant on boots instead of panderan step.
    There has already been a pretty thorough comparison of that tier of talents, and as I recall it basically boiled down to:

    LaotL is almost always better, except when you VERY occasionally need a sprint (SoL) or don't really have to move much anyway so the constant small increase of PoJ is fine.

    If you're not running between mobs, 100% speed is always enough
    If you are running between mobs, 145% is better than 130%

    If you're going to pick one and stick to it, it should really be LaotL; PoJ is simply inadequate. You can still enchant your boots with haste if you care about dps so much, it doesn't change the fact that LaotL is better in almost every real-world scenario.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 05:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    Yeah, don't see a huge reason to use anything else.

    During SW is it still preferred to HoW - CS - How - TV repeat?
    Prioritizing exo is safe, prioritizing CS is 'riskier' but they're pretty similar in dps.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 05:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRaven View Post
    What're doing with Divine Purpose ??
    Theres nothing wrong with divine purpose. Its not the highest possible dps but its not that far behind.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 05:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pinchit View Post
    ok i,m doing pretty good but i,m sure i can improve some more can a experianced pally look at my logs to see if i,m doing anything wrong that i could improve plz. pallys name is nirvkornica http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...e/?s=102&e=754 and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...e/?s=102&e=754 amoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rnica/advanced
    You're doing exactly as good as I'd expect a good player to be doing in the gear you have. Without some context of a problem or notably low dps its really hard to go into logs and find problems out of the blue. If you're wondering why you arent ranking, tighten up your rotation slightly, get a heroic weapon, get your guild to kill bosses faster, and then get a little lucky with procs. If your dps is actually low on a specific fight (it wasn't on the ones I looked at) I'd be glad to look into it, but your single target dps (magaera, twins) is perfectly fine - or at least good enough that it'd be impossible for me to find a problem in the logs.

  14. #334
    Well, concerning tier 1 talents, with 4p and exo + SW, you can see yourself not casting a single Judgment for 10sec+ easily during periods of the fight where you need to move (horridon, ji'kun, tortos etc...).

    Beeing compelled to use a Judgement instead of a harder-hitting ability to save your ass really isn't optimal.
    You either go for boot speed + SoL for steady fight with on-demand get-out-here-quick mechanics (jin'rokh, ji'kun) and use PoJ for movement heavy fights.

    At least, that's what I do but agree to disagree

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Well, concerning tier 1 talents, with 4p and exo + SW, you can see yourself not casting a single Judgment for 10sec+ easily during periods of the fight where you need to move (horridon, ji'kun, tortos etc...).

    Beeing compelled to use a Judgement instead of a harder-hitting ability to save your ass really isn't optimal.
    You either go for boot speed + SoL for steady fight with on-demand get-out-here-quick mechanics (jin'rokh, ji'kun) and use PoJ for movement heavy fights.

    At least, that's what I do but agree to disagree
    You have a point but here's the thing - you ONLY have a point if 100% speed isn't enough but 130% is... and how often is that?
    Also, how often do you time AW during periods where you're running from one mob to another?
    When you're running between things out of melee range, how often DONT you use judgment?
    If the movement speed is so important that you absolutely have to have a speed increase, doesn't a higher speed increase trump the miniscule damage loss of one judgment instead of one exo?

    I'm not saying don't use PoJ, its not a big enough difference to matter. All I'm saying is that logic points to LaotL being almost universally better.

  16. #336
    On heavy movement fights (tortos, maegara, ~qon, twins fire phase, horridon, durumu, council) getting your ass out of those AOE, voids, pools'n'shit doesn't mean being out of melee range at all. Like, never. But a passive 30% is superior to avoid additionnal ticks from fire on the ground than a reactive sprint of 45% likely to screw your rotation.

    If I have to judge to avoid a poison pool on horridon, this <=1sec reaction time to use judge is enough to just be....dead. That's where LAotL is meh imo. it's reactive, hence delayed.. you're likely to move quicker, yes, but later. Unless you're lucky enough to have just judged right before your movement requirement. And survivability should never be trusted with luck

    Durumu and tortos are the perfect examples where you constantly move and are never out of range. horridon, between mobs, with PoJ, you barely have 1 GCD before reaching the next mob, which you can use to FOL (SH assumed here) a raid member etc...

    If you must use Judgement to move, you are locking a GCD-delay on reactive shit you must avoid, a GCD-delay to utility spells that can save a life etc..
    If you have to choose between your sprint to survive and LoH your tank/Purity a Cinders/sac a frostbite etc... those gcd can save from some wipes. LAotL conflicts not only with your dps, but utility also.

    Whereas the few fights where SoL is "mandatory" or just better (ji'kun/leishen/qon for stormwind..) you use it when the entire raid has to move, so you're less likely to miss those spot-on GCD where our raid utility shines

    And to conclud my love for PoJ/SoL, keep in mind that I have a 10-man raider logic, in 25man maybe all my arguments are invalid because of much more raid healing and raid utility given by holydin etc..

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    On heavy movement fights (tortos, maegara, ~qon, twins fire phase, horridon, durumu, council) getting your ass out of those AOE, voids, pools'n'shit doesn't mean being out of melee range at all. Like, never. But a passive 30% is superior to avoid additionnal ticks from fire on the ground than a reactive sprint of 45% likely to screw your rotation.

    If I have to judge to avoid a poison pool on horridon, this <=1sec reaction time to use judge is enough to just be....dead. That's where LAotL is meh imo. it's reactive, hence delayed.. you're likely to move quicker, yes, but later. Unless you're lucky enough to have just judged right before your movement requirement. And survivability should never be trusted with luck

    Durumu and tortos are the perfect examples where you constantly move and are never out of range. horridon, between mobs, with PoJ, you barely have 1 GCD before reaching the next mob, which you can use to FOL (SH assumed here) a raid member etc...

    If you must use Judgement to move, you are locking a GCD-delay on reactive shit you must avoid, a GCD-delay to utility spells that can save a life etc..
    If you have to choose between your sprint to survive and LoH your tank/Purity a Cinders/sac a frostbite etc... those gcd can save from some wipes. LAotL conflicts not only with your dps, but utility also.

    Whereas the few fights where SoL is "mandatory" or just better (ji'kun/leishen/qon for stormwind..) you use it when the entire raid has to move, so you're less likely to miss those spot-on GCD where our raid utility shines

    And to conclud my love for PoJ/SoL, keep in mind that I have a 10-man raider logic, in 25man maybe all my arguments are invalid because of much more raid healing and raid utility given by holydin etc..
    I may have missed it somewhere (or I'm just a bad ret...MS holy :P)...but when are you going to be pooling 3-hp? POJ gives 15% base and then 5% per hp...so in all scenarios you described, you make it seem like you're always sitting at 3-hp for the 30% speed increase.
    I know I'm always spamming whatever I can as ret...again maybe my issue…but I don’t have 3-hp sitting there at all times allowing me to move when I desire…its more situational…hence the plus for LaotL.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Prioritizing exo is safe, prioritizing CS is 'riskier' but they're pretty similar in dps.[COLOR="red"]
    Yeah, I meant to add that in there. IF exo is available, I use that, if not I use CS...basically ignoring judgment to maximize HoWs and TVs, right? (While using the highest DPE builder?)

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Theres nothing wrong with divine purpose. Its not the highest possible dps but its not that far behind.
    Considering the other 2 alternatives, yes it is wrong. He's not doing LFR and/or being a noob, he's asking for the finest of details when pursuing improvements...

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRaven View Post
    Considering the other 2 alternatives, yes it is wrong. He's not doing LFR and/or being a noob, he's asking for the finest of details when pursuing improvements...
    Yea I'm not denying SW is better, but DP isn't that far behind and in rare scenarios can actually be better. One example is magaera- my group kills the heads so fast I'm sitting there with wings and nothing to attack. Even on fights where SW is definitively better, its still only by a couple percent. I just don't want people to get the idea that they can't use DP, but yes they probably *should* use SW.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 11:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    Yeah, I meant to add that in there. IF exo is available, I use that, if not I use CS...basically ignoring judgment to maximize HoWs and TVs, right? (While using the highest DPE builder?)
    Yes, but you can even prioritize CS over exo which is what I was referring to. Both definitely over judge though

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 12:20 AM ----------

    @metasaigneur

    OK a couple points:
    - LaotL is not *only* reactive, it has a fairly high uptime during our non-SW rotation, and the uptime only gets higher with more haste.
    - when was the last time ~120% movement speed saved you from something you couldn't avoid with 100%? If your reaction time is slow maybe this is an issue but there has never been a time I've thought "if only I was 20% faster"
    - LaotL is fine for ji'kun and I don't know what you need a sprint for on lei shen, yes it is the worst talent on iron qon I'll give you that
    - you're thinking about judgment wrong, which is why you feel like its taking the space of a utility ability when in reality all it is is our normal rotation.


    I raid 10m as well, but I don't think raid size has much impact on the comparison of these talents. warlocks can avoid every ground-targetted mechanic moving at 70% speed so I think its a little silly to suggest that you'd need 130% for it. The purpose of our t1 talents should be as a gap closer, for which LaotL is superior on average. Again I love PoJ and use it on every fight as holy, and see no problem with using it as ret; its perfectly viable... But is LaotL better? I guess that depends on whether you need the safety net of a higher base speed.

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