1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    The fact you are casting LoD copiously with EF slotted already tells me that you don't have sufficient knowledge about the optimal hpally rotation.

    When someone posts here asking for help, yet declares he has absolutely nothing else to learn and that his cup is already full, I don't think he is trying to do anything except blaming uncontrollable circumstances for his performance, or lack thereof.
    So what you are saying is when 5 people need a heal I should EF one person instead of using LoD? Esp when I already have both tanks flamed up

    Because that's the only time I use LoD. Is it still better to use flame just because the beacon transfer amount or what

  2. #2002
    Yes, you should cast EF in that situation. Also, if you're using LoD that much (or for whatever reason you feel the need to use it), that's a hint that you probably need to switch to the talent that currently is designed to use LoD as its finisher (which is SH). Crit is a Holy Pally's worst stat. You should be gemming/reforging mastery, not crit. Switch to Holy Avenger. Take off Avenging Wrath glyph and use Hand of Sac glyph. The only reason to be in EF in 25 man is if you're on Malk or your tanks are taking stupid amounts of damage (which obviously isn't happening).
    Last edited by Hainiryuun; 2014-04-20 at 01:25 AM.

  3. #2003
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dondivine View Post
    So what you are saying is when 5 people need a heal I should EF one person instead of using LoD? Esp when I already have both tanks flamed up. Because that's the only time I use LoD. Is it still better to use flame just because the beacon transfer amount or what
    Because the HoT lasts for 30 seconds and the initial heal is large, and LoD just doesn't heal for very much by comparison. Not to mention any overhealing on ticks is transferred via the healing cloak. The Beacon Transfer is icing.

  4. #2004
    So healing went a lot better tonight with the changes you guys recommend thanks being able to holy flame 10 people thanks to holy avenger is powerful. I 2 more questions

    1) How much haste should i go for I remember reading there is an ideal haste for EF to gain a tick
    2) if an item has Haste and Spirit should I reforge off the haste for mastery or reforge off the spirit for mastery?

    how does my setup look now
    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/korgath/Dondivine/advanced
    Last edited by Dondivine; 2014-04-20 at 09:32 AM.

  5. #2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dondivine View Post
    great thanks guys I will make all those changes for tonights raid!! I appreciate all your help.


    -Don

    - - - Updated - - -

    So healing went a lot better tonight with the changes you guys recommend thanks being able to holy flame 10 people thanks to holy avenger is powerful. I 2 more questions

    1) How much haste should i go for I remember reading there is an ideal haste for EF to gain a tick
    2) if an item has Haste and Spirit should I reforge off the haste for mastery or reforge off the spirit for mastery?
    The extra tick haste point is 7170.

    I use Askmrrobot.com to optimise my gear but I tweak it ofc as they think I should stack spirit and spirit only lol. I guess if you need the haste, reforge the spirit?

  6. #2006
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinaa View Post
    The extra tick haste point is 7170. I use Askmrrobot.com to optimise my gear but I tweak it ofc as they think I should stack spirit and spirit only lol. I guess if you need the haste, reforge the spirit?
    You can change AMR stat weights. Personally I use Mastery > 7170 Haste > Spirit > Excess Haste > Crit, but keep in mind my gear level is at a point where I still have comfortable Spirit that way.

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    You can change AMR stat weights. Personally I use Mastery > 7170 Haste > Spirit > Excess Haste > Crit, but keep in mind my gear level is at a point where I still have comfortable Spirit that way.
    Whats the link to your pally Nighfalls? I wanna perve if thats okay?

  8. #2008
    @pretiwhitboy: You're still in ret gear on your armory, so I can't speak to your gems or whatnot.

    Looking at Heroic Shamans... your uptime on IH should ideally be at 100% (98% is acceptable); your EF up-time is fine, but your IH sitting sub 80% is not a good sign. 2.1% healing with LoD is 2.1% too much; there is never any reason to use LoD with EF specced (with a few minor exceptions and none of those happen on H Shamans).

    Your Holy Prism usage is wayyy too low for that fight; needs to be used on cd ideally. And you're not getting as much use out of Holy Avenger as you should-- 3 HoPo gain from ToR over the course of that fight is way too low. If Infusion of Light doesn't proc for HR, usually a good idea to FoL the Beacon so you don't waste the 18sec HA duration.

    Your cd usage is a bit low as well; AW and GoaK could have been used twice during that fight--you used both only once.

    Seeing as you got Toxic Mist once, I assume you were healing the bottom? While this isn't strictly necessary (esp in a 25man w/ more healers), glyphing Divine Protection and using UBS (if tank on bottom doesn't get hard enough to make Clemency necessary) really helps in dealing with the Iron Prison for your own personal survivability.


    Looking at Heroic Galakras... your Holy Shock usage is way too low; 51 casts of HS in a 9:25 minute fight is ~half the HS you should do in that time (little over half). HS should be used on cd every time, no matter which play-style you use. You really don't utilize Tower of Radiance very well in either spec, since you used SH in this one and EF in the last fight I looked at.

    SH allows for more ToR HoPo gain, esp on a fight like Galakras where the only true raid damage is at the end with the boss himself. You need to get used to casting FoL/DL on your beaconed targets when it's needed b/c a 2 HoPo gain from ToR on this fight and the 3 HoPo gain from ToR from Shamans is rather pathetic.

    That being said... your HS/Judgment casts are about equal--which is good--but since HS is too low by far, that means Judgment is also way too low. Your IH uptime is sub 90% and with SH it should rarely ever be below 100% considering SH's mechanics.

    And you cast AW/DF/GoaK 1x each in a fight that easily allows 3 usages of GoaK/AW and 4 usages of DF. Also, assuming you have 4set--why the hell are you using Divine Purpose? Holy Avenger is better than DP for both EF AND SH.

    Last thing on this fight...if you are going to spec into Light's Hammer, then use Light's Hammer on cd when you can. There's no weird timing requirements for LH on Galakras, so you should definitely be dropping it on cd.


    Heroic Nazgrim.... Holy Shock usage is a little low. You used SH and gained 15 HoPo in 6:15 minutes. If you're not going to judge on cooldown, don't use SH! Again, ToR usage is practically non-existent. IH uptime is good on this fight, at least. Divine Purpose = pointless; don't use it for SH. Pop your cooldowns more often! Using a 2min cooldown 1x and 3min cooldowns 1x in a fight where you could use them 3x and 2x respectively is a healing loss. And if you're going to use Holy Prism, use it on cd.


    Overall thoughts:

    Your Holy Shock usage is all over the place. HS should be on cd at all times in all specs. HA should be used over DP for both EF/SH.

    When you use SH, JUDGE!!!! That's the whole point of SH. If you're not going to Judge on cooldown, stay EF.

    Utilize Tower of Radiance more. Pop your cooldowns more often. Don't use LoD when you are specced into EF.

    Your IH uptime should be higher/equal to your EF uptime when you use EF. In either spec, IH should be at/above 98% (preferably 100%).

    And Light's Hammer/Holy Prism--- use your 90 talents!-- some fights require timing for LH usage, but Holy Prism should always be on cooldown when you're using it.

    And, like I said, I can't comment on your gear because you're in Ret. But that's what I gleaned from your logs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPrimigenia View Post
    Hey all, we just downed 10m heroic protectors last night (got a really late start in SoO.. just started like 4 weeks ago), and I was wondering if you all wouldn't mind looking over my logs from that fight. Only things I'll say is that it was a long fight (9:32), and I was definitely orienting my CD usage towards progression over throughput (i.e. saving some of them for oh-shit moments instead of consistently stacking them). Also tips on my Armory appreciated, but I think for the most part it's solid. Also, are those numbers reasonable/good for my gear level? Note the Neck and Off-Hand dropped after the kill (subtract 2ish ilvls from Armory).

    Log Report
    Armory

    Thanks!
    Your breakdown for Heroic Protectors looks pretty good. But there are a few things you could do better. Like X's said, you're casting far too many Holy Lights. If you're having mana issues on that fight, I'd suggest bumping your spirit up to 15k-ish b/c casting HL takes away from using ToR or HR to gain HoPo.

    That said, excellent HS usage--always nice to see that. IH is a *little* low at 92.9%--want to aim for 98% or higher, ideally 100%.

    You could use your cooldowns more often, too. The fight lasted long enough for you to cast HA/DF 4x; you cast them both 2x. And instead of the 3x you could have cast GoAK/AW, you cast them both 1x. Use all those more often

    I'm not 100% sure why you're taking Light's Hammer for Protectors-- Holy Prism is much stronger, since the only stacked phase is the dark meds and you can generally roll a cd through those and be fine without LH.


    Looking at your gear, you have items with crit reforged to mastery and items with mastery reforged to haste. While sometimes you have to reforge mastery gear to haste, you should never do so without first reforging crit to haste if it's possible. Also, with EF, you should never reforge out of spirit, esp. now that you are starting to do heroics.

    Gemming/glyphs/talents/stat weights are all fine, but you might want to bump up to 15-17k spirit for heroic content. Definitely don't need that much on normal, but it's a nice cushion for heroics.


    My gear isn't much better than yours-- I'm at 568-- but I'll link my armory and the breakdown of my latest Heroic Protectors kill. Ignore the Nazgrim trinket >.> Siegecrafter refuses to drop Dysmorphic for me.

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Kyazah/simple
    Heroic Protectors: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/39f4FcJbKNHqzDhY#type=healing&source=8&fight=6

    ...Just ignore the bad Holy Prism usage on that >.> Mostly wanting to demonstrate the uptimes on IH/EF.
    Last edited by Kyaza; 2014-04-20 at 04:01 PM.

  9. #2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaza View Post
    My gear isn't much better than yours-- I'm at 568-- but I'll link my armory and the breakdown of my latest Heroic Protectors kill. Ignore the Nazgrim trinket >.> Siegecrafter refuses to drop Dysmorphic for me.

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Kyazah/simple
    Heroic Protectors: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...urce=8&fight=6

    ...Just ignore the bad Holy Prism usage on that >.> Mostly wanting to demonstrate the uptimes on IH/EF.
    The Nazgrim trinket is bad. Go get an Horridon trinket or even the Thok cleave trinket. If you've been coining Siegecrafter on normal/heroic and flex every week I find it hard to believe (but not strictly impossible) that you've never seen it.

    On the Protectors log you linked, your EF uptime and IH uptime on yourself is awful. Due to the 50% increased healing of EF when you cast it on yourself and the Beacon transfer from the increased heal you should always have it rolling on yourself in addition to the tanks. You also only used your GoAK once when it could have been used twice and effectively stacked with AW. I'm also not seeing any HP gain from ToR even though you picked on LSPrimigenia for not generating HP with it. It might just be that I'm not as good with WCL as I am with WoL but I can't be fucked to try and find your WoL to double check. Feel free to show me the error of my ways on that one.
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  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    The Nazgrim trinket is bad. Go get an Horridon trinket or even the Thok cleave trinket. If you've been coining Siegecrafter on normal/heroic and flex every week I find it hard to believe (but not strictly impossible) that you've never seen it.

    On the Protectors log you linked, your EF uptime and IH uptime on yourself is awful. Due to the 50% increased healing of EF when you cast it on yourself and the Beacon transfer from the increased heal you should always have it rolling on yourself in addition to the tanks. You also only used your GoAK once when it could have been used twice and effectively stacked with AW. I'm also not seeing any HP gain from ToR even though you picked on LSPrimigenia for not generating HP with it. It might just be that I'm not as good with WCL as I am with WoL but I can't be fucked to try and find your WoL to double check. Feel free to show me the error of my ways on that one.
    If I had a better trinket, I'd be using it. Coined every week in HToT for Horridon trink--never saw it. Coined every week on Siegecrafter-- never seen the dysmorphic. Ofc, I have it on my druid alt.

    Also, other ppl asked for help-- I suggested improvements they could make. I never said I couldn't make any improvements myself, because all of us can improve.

    Some of us just aren't as nasty about it as you are.

    As for "picking on" --- I didn't do that at all. He asked for brutal; I respected his wishes.

    I'm already aware of what I need to improve on based on that log, but thank you for the unasked for advice (notice, I didn't link logs and say "hey someone fix this!"). Giving advice when it's not asked for = showing your a** b/c all you are doing is saying "Hey, look at me, I like to point out everyone else's mistakes and show how bada** I am for calling other ppl out."

    You have that attitude on all of the threads I've seen you on-- I'm sure others notice it too-- and I'm calling *you* out now because I'm sick of your holier-than-thou attitude.

    My healing isn't perfect; no one's healing is perfect. Cuz, hey, guess what? We're all humans! I know, crazy thought, right?

    So how about instead of being an a**hat all the time just b/c it's the interwebs, you start treating ppl like they are /gasp, as human/real as you are.

    That being said, here's where you look at the uptime on EF on ppl on Warcraft Logs:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ability=114163

    If you'll notice, the uptime on EF on the two tanks (Hoisty/Bastosa) and on myself are within ~5% of each other. Those dps with higher uptimes of EF than the tanks are the ones who happen to deal with the Mark of Anguish and thus benefit more from the HoT.

    As for my ToR gain of 3 Holy Power--yeah, it's low--I got lucky with Infusion Procs w/HA active. Could I have utilized it better? Yes. Could I have used GoAK again? Yes.

    But no, I will *not* stack a 20% increase with a 100% increase because I happen to *like* rolling them at separate times.

    So before you pick on *me* about my logs, learn to read the WCL ones before you open your mouth. I'll freely admit to the mistakes I make-- how about you? You going to show us your logs now? Or just continue to say crap to other people while staying safely anonymous behind your computer screen?

  11. #2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaza View Post
    You going to show us your logs now? Or just continue to say crap to other people while staying safely anonymous behind your computer screen?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/1245/

    He's not hiding, and a simple Google shows all the logs needed.

  12. #2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/1245/

    He's not hiding, and a simple Google shows all the logs needed.
    Thanks for the link Xs. Looking at them now. Not like I know the names of all the characters of the people who post on the forums :P

    That being said, he's SH specced and in a 25man guild. Kinda hard to compare 25 to 10man for obv. reasons; same with EF vs SH. I can see things he can do better too, but I'm not going to say anything particular b/c he didn't ask-- thus, treating him with the respect he consistently fails to show me.
    Last edited by Kyaza; 2014-04-21 at 03:56 AM.

  13. #2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaza View Post
    Thanks for the link Xs. Looking at them now. Not like I know the names of all the characters of the people who post on the forums :P
    Link to his blog in the sig, which has a link to his armory/guild, Google does the rest.

  14. #2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Link to his blog in the sig, which has a link to his armory/guild, Google does the rest.
    I generally avoid signature links, so didn't even think about that. Oversight on my part

  15. #2015
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaza View Post
    I can see things he can do better too, but I'm not going to say anything particular b/c he didn't ask-- thus, treating him with the respect he consistently fails to show me.
    Why don't you say it, just so you can prove your point? Right now, I just see two logs, of which one seems to reflect a lot better performance (and thus a lot more credibility) than the other.

    I realize that not everybody has perfect pulls or even perfect days, but generally linking a log and saying "here's an example" makes it pretty fair game to challenge that. Because doing so on a help forum generally carries the connotation that, for the most part, what you are doing in the log is "correct."
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-04-21 at 04:18 AM.

  16. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaza View Post
    I generally avoid signature links, so didn't even think about that. Oversight on my part
    First of all, I found the uptime on EF no problem. I didn't see where it tracked ToR.

    I don't claim to be anything close to perfect and if you'd like me dissect my own logs for you I'm happy to do that right out in public. You put your logs up as something a relative newcomer should emulate. I disagree that anyone should go down that path. By doing so you opened yourself up to scrutiny.

    There is a whole lot more I could have said and didn't. I didn't say anything about your Holy Prism usage because you said to ignore it. I didn't say a lot about a lot of things. I did say something about your EF and IH uptimes because that's what you held up to be an ideal standard.

    I'm not a nasty person. If you ask anyone on these forums you'll probably figure out that I'm one of the most tolerant and level headed. If you meet me you'll probably get more of an earful in person because I try to be NICER online to counterbalance the fuckery that usually occurs on the internet. I've been very open on these forums about my in game identity. I'm not hiding behind anything. If you really want to talk about pallies and get some insight into what people playing at a different level than you are about... Add me Gxxxxxn#1xx1.
    Last edited by Lucyrotten; 2014-04-21 at 05:38 AM.
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  17. #2017
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    First of all, I found the uptime on EF no problem. I didn't see where it tracked ToR.
    As an aside, ToR is tracked in resource gains. You'll need ACL on I believe for it to work in the log.

  18. #2018
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Why don't you say it, just so you can prove your point? Right now, I just see two logs, of which one seems to reflect a lot better performance (and thus a lot more credibility) than the other.

    I realize that not everybody has perfect pulls or even perfect days, but generally linking a log and saying "here's an example" makes it pretty fair game to challenge that. Because doing so on a help forum generally carries the connotation that, for the most part, what you are doing in the log is "correct."
    The only point I'm making is that he shouldn't be giving advice when it's unasked for.

    I'll admit that the log I linked wasn't my best Protectors log and I made a comment about that when I linked it. I prob should have chosen a better log to link, so that was a mistake on my part.

    I just get annoyed when ppl act like they just can't wait! to jump down someone else's throat b/c they aren't perfect. And, for the most part, my log for Protectors is correct (aside from Holy Prism which was just terrible). The little things I could've done better are little things-- and I will work on them :P

    Like I said...my only point was his lack of respect toward me, which is actually pretty consistent across the threads on the pally forums. It just gets old, b/c it seems he'd rather nitpick *at* me instead of communicate *with* me.

    For example-- his comment about trinkets was a pretty clear implication that he thinks I'm an idiot. Instead of making that assumption, he could've *asked* why I was using the trinket and may have found out that I have horrible luck with trinkets. I've played holy since BC and have *never* finished a single expansion with more than one of my BiS trinkets.

    But you're right, nightfalls, I should have chosen a better log to link, and I'll keep that in mind from now on :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    First of all, I found the uptime on EF no problem. I didn't see where it tracked ToR.

    I don't claim to be anything close to perfect and if you'd like me dissect my own logs for you I'm happy to do that right out in public. You put your logs up as something a relative newcomer should emulate. I disagree that anyone should go down that path. By doing so you opened yourself up to scrutiny.

    There is a whole lot more I could have said and didn't. I didn't say anything about your Holy Prism usage because you said to ignore it. I didn't say a lot about a lot of things. I did say something about your EF and IH uptimes because that's what you held up to be an ideal standard.

    I'm not a nasty person. If you ask anyone on these forums you'll probably figure out that I'm one of the most tolerant and level headed. If you meet me you'll probably get more of an earful in person because I try to be NICER online to counterbalance the fuckery that usually occurs on the internet. I've been very open on these forums about my in game identity. I'm not hiding behind anything. If you really want to talk about pallies and get some insight into what people playing at a different level than you are about... Add me Gyllian#1741.
    I'll add you b/c I'm willing to work through differences with people-- but you haven't been nice to me *at all.* Which I'll discuss with you in-game so as to take it off the forums.

  19. #2019
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaza View Post
    But you're right, nightfalls, I should have chosen a better log to link, and I'll keep that in mind from now on :P
    An alternative is just not linking a log at all, and giving principles for advice. Then you'd only be challenged on your principles, and a good number of things you did say were correct (for instance, take Holy Avenger, avoid Light of Dawn as EF spec, etc.). If you link a log, best make sure it's pretty damn near perfect play (and I'm not just talking HPS, I'm talking execution wise).

    For instance, even as a third party point of view, linking a log that has a breakdown that isn't the best (whether a bad pull or bad day), telling others to use it as a guide for their ability breakdown, and finally telling said person that their own breakdown "looks pretty good" comes off as a bit laughable, does it not?

    ---

    As for the respect issue I'll just say that many high end players got that way by doing a LOT of work and still continue to do a lot. Making sure you are accurate not only for your sake but for the sake of others who listen to you really isn't easy - even at a high end level, it's easier to be wrong than right. And doing that work and then seeing people give bad advice, or advice that's just copying the book without practicing what they preach in their own logs, or worse yet, acting like they "deserve" a say in the future of the class... can be pretty frustrating. A lot of people (Lucy, in particular) I know of here and out of here do a lot of work to help others get better at the game and ask for very little in return.

    So yeah, respect has to be earned, don't expect it just to be handed on a silver platter.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-04-21 at 05:27 AM.

  20. #2020
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    An alternative is just not linking a log at all, and giving principles for advice. Then you'd only be challenged on your principles, and a good number of things you did say were correct (for instance, take Holy Avenger, avoid Light of Dawn as EF spec, etc.). If you link a log, best make sure it's pretty damn near perfect play (and I'm not just talking HPS, I'm talking execution wise).

    For instance, even as a third party point of view, linking a log that has a breakdown that isn't the best (whether a bad pull or bad day), telling others to use it as a guide for their ability breakdown, and finally telling said person that their own breakdown "looks pretty good" comes off as a bit laughable, does it not?

    ---

    As for the respect issue I'll just say that many high end players got that way by doing a LOT of work and still continue to do a lot. Making sure you are accurate not only for your sake but for the sake of others who listen to you really isn't easy - even at a high end level, it's easier to be wrong than right. And doing that work and then seeing people give bad advice, or advice that's just copying the book without practicing what they preach in their own logs, or worse yet, acting like they "deserve" a say in the future of the class... can be pretty frustrating. A lot of people (Lucy, in particular) I know of here and out of here do a lot of work to help others get better at the game and ask for very little in return.

    So yeah, respect has to be earned, don't expect it just to be handed on a silver platter.
    Fair enough on the logs point.

    As for respect? The rule is give it to get it right? At what point does it become acceptable for a more progressed raider to be disrespectful to a less progressed one? 'Cuz I see a lot of that type of attitude rather than vice versa.

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