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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Overhealing average:
    Eternal Flame: 43.2 %
    Holy Radiance: 74.9 %
    Arcing Light : 74.1 %
    Daybreak: 79.6 %

    You still think Crit is better?
    Definitely, yes.

    That was one of our 3-healing attempts (with druid) and demanded, in no way whatsoever, more mitigation or padding on my part. As far as H Council goes, I learned the other day that it's possible to cheese the Frostbites with our bubble, so I'll do that next week. It turns out that I also missed a few dispels which I'm very much aware of... Does Frostbite sometime coincide with Sandtraps going out? It could've been Healbot overriding one with the other, although I'm not sure that's the case.

    I mostly need help with Twisted Fate -- what's the average/expected tick designed to hit for? What's the DPS requirement for the fight?
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-05 at 08:12 AM.

  2. #782
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Most of the problems you are mentioning: Twisted Fate, Wind Storm, Primordius, can all be mitigated by using proper stats/reforging.

    Yes there are other things we can do, but I assume if you ask your raid leader, having proper stats/reforging pre-raid is more important than anything else. Until you can get that in your head, there's no point in continuing to waste effort. I am not trying to come off as rude, but there's no point in continuing to give help if people frankly refuse to take any of the sound advice they have already been given.

    If you are curious, there are many threads on this topic that already exist but it is almost universally accepted that mastery is superior to crit for this tier. As I mentioned above, it is particularly good on the exact problems you've been mentioning.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-05 at 08:30 AM.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Most of the problems you are mentioning: Twisted Fate, Wind Storm, Primordius, can all be mitigated by using proper stats/reforging.
    I disagree (except. Wind Storm) and even if I didn't, given what you've shown me, I would unfortunately have to stick with what I'm doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Yes there are other things we can do, but I assume if you ask your raid leader, having proper stats/reforging pre-raid is more important than anything else. Until you can get that in your head, there's no point in continuing to waste effort. I am not trying to come off as rude, but there's no point in continuing to give help if people frankly refuse to take any of the sound advice they have already been given.
    My raid leader thinks following mechanics correctly takes precedence over stat weighting, so do I.

    I don't intend to be offensive either, merely as honest as humanly possible. Even though it probably looks like I end up dismissing your arguments on no solid ground, I in fact do scrutinize and take note of all suggestions - no matter how minimal and ridiculous they may seem to me at first.

    If I make or have made mistakes in my calculations, well, that's tough luck for me and absolutely not your fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    If you are curious, there are many threads on this topic that already exist but it is almost universally accepted that mastery is superior to crit for this tier. As I mentioned above, it is particularly good on the exact problems you've been mentioning.
    I've found that groups of individuals are often wrong in their shared beliefs, for various biological and social reasons.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-05 at 09:38 AM.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post

    I've found that groups of individuals are often wrong in their shared beliefs, for various biological and social reasons.
    Or you are just too pigheaded to listen. Now since the people offering the advice are far more progressed than the person questioning it, where does the balance of probability lie?

    That's right, with mastery out performing crit.

  5. #785
    Armory Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...alysa/advanced

    Worldoflogs Link: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6wy0cs87lu1vcazz/

    Questions, concerns, expectations: I've been playing around with my holy paladin in our guild's alt runs for a bit and while I enjoy playing it, my hps feels really lacklustre. I don't know whether it's me, my gear, holy paladins or disc priests but where I put out 59.5k hps on a fight like Iron Qon hc (and our MW at 61k), the disc priests pulls a massive 109k hps, granted he has 11 ilvls on me, but still. If you look at our Horridon hc kill it becomes even worse, I did 33.6k hps while our priest did 87k hps. Even so, at no point during our Horridon kill did I feel my healing wasn't enough or I was behind. Is this just the way it is or am I simply being bad?

    Description of Playstyle: HS as often as possible. Prism when a few people are damaged. Keeping up a 2 or 3 stack EF on both tanks. Using the rest of my HoPo (during relative downtime) to put 1 or 2 stack EFs on people who are damaged but do not have an EF yet (and if no one's damaged just spread it around). Holy Light inbetween. HR fairly often to generate some extra power. Divine Light or a full stack EF when someone is taking massive personal damage. HR HR HS LoD during stacked AoE. Cooldowns when huge damage incoming (I generally try to spread my cooldowns, usually combo them together like AW+HAvenger or Guardian+the 20% crit and haste).

    At our Primordius normal kill I exclusively did a HR EF > HS EF > repeat (with prisms weaved in) rotation as to keep EF ticking on every single raid member (with the stand-in-middle-and-nuke tactic) and yet I got no further than 47k hps. As far as I've deduced this should be the healing style with the most hps for spread fights.

    Also, during avenger and heavy raid damage, should I spam EF, or LoD?
    Last edited by Thorakh; 2013-08-05 at 12:21 PM.

  6. #786
    Council of Elders:Actually, a majority of your wipes at least your first few deaths from things are from people dying to frostbite. I'm not sure how your raid is set up to heal this but typically my raid just heals through one and lets the next frostbite person die. However if you have 2-3 people dying to frostbite consistently then you will be coming in to trouble with dark power among other things. Twisted fate is a problem but the first few deaths in your raid don't typically seem to be due to that. As long as you have one person designated to stand out of the raid then you should be fine. Also your raid will definitely need to pop cooldowns to heal through frostbite either single tanking it or stacking for it. If you're trying to do the stacking strategy which I'm guessing you might be doing since you have multiple people dying to it at once, then you need to be cleaner about it. It's more complicated and harder to pull off than single healing it though as you've probably experienced.
    Tortos: The logs I see have you sitting at 100K...I'm not sure if I'm just having a momentary lapse of intelligence or something. 100K HPS on Tortos isn't bad but with more mastery you would be able to push that up by more, something you seem to be adamant against even trying out. Primordius is just a heavy raid damage fight. Your raid needs to continue to be spread during it otherwise there's several abilities like Acidic Explosion or Pustule Eruption which will do damage in an AOE radius. At least one of these is avoidable as well, people just need to be aware of what they're standing on and move out of it. If you don't have the healing for this fight you just won't be able to survive through it.
    Iron Qon: Your warlock should have a portal up for the healers to port out of after the storm. That way it's easier for you to heal the DPS running around. If they're getting caught by the tornado that's their own fault.

    With all of this, I find it interesting that you're asking here for help but refuse to take the most important bit of help that people can offer on your gearing strategy. Granted, socketing mastery vs crit might not be the reason that your raid is wiping on things like Council or Iron Qon where those are mechanics related wipes but all fights require a certain healing output to deal with the damage. You're going to have a much easier time doing the fights with the right gearing strategy. You may have heard somewhere that crit is our best stat, and it is purely from a numbers stand point. BUT considering the healing environment especially for your raid (absorbs, hots), considering how mana-intensive all of our skills are, considering that it's not a reliable proc (70% of the time you'll just be healing regular levels and you don't get to pick which 70% of the time it is) it's just not an optimal build to play with. The same thing could be said for any DPS or Tank that goes in to a raid with the wrong gear but does all the mechanics correctly. Why are you making it harder for yourself? What kind of theorycrafting are you doing to say that crit is better than mastery? Any kind of theorycrafting for healing is shoddy at best and needs to be backed up with the right assumptions to even be relevant. And, even then from fight to fight it's extremely variable. Forget theorycrafting. Just go look through your own world of logs for real-life situations and see how much overhealing you're doing. See on average how much your crits are actually healing for. Your crits may be be healing for on average slightly more than non-crits. Imagine however that your mastery is sitting around 35%. Every single one of your heals would be healing for 35% more with very little overhealing. Also the shields from your EF among other spells puts a buffer on your raid allowing for more mistakes and messy fights AKA progression fights. If you're really looking to improve your play then you should not be against at least trying out a build that a majority of the holy paladin community is using, not because it's the social norm but because it's the best build and puts out the best numbers in a real raid environment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorakh View Post
    Armory Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...alysa/advanced

    Worldoflogs Link: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6wy0cs87lu1vcazz/

    Questions, concerns, expectations: I've been playing around with my holy paladin in our guild's alt runs for a bit and while I enjoy playing it, my hps feels really lacklustre. I don't know whether it's me, my gear, holy paladins or disc priests but where I put out 59.5k hps on a fight like Iron Qon hc (and our MW at 61k), the disc priests pulls a massive 109k hps, granted he has 11 ilvls on me, but still. If you look at our Horridon hc kill it becomes even worse, I did 33.6k hps while our priest did 87k hps. Even so, at no point during our Horridon kill did I feel my healing wasn't enough or I was behind. Is this just the way it is or am I simply being bad?

    Description of Playstyle: HS as often as possible. Prism when a few people are damaged. Keeping up a 2 or 3 stack EF on both tanks. Using the rest of my HoPo (during relative downtime) to put 1 or 2 stack EFs on people who are damaged but do not have an EF yet (and if no one's damaged just spread it around). Holy Light inbetween. HR fairly often to generate some extra power. Divine Light or a full stack EF when someone is taking massive personal damage. HR HR HS LoD during stacked AoE. Cooldowns when huge damage incoming (I generally try to spread my cooldowns, usually combo them together like AW+HAvenger or Guardian+the 20% crit and haste).

    At our Primordius normal kill I exclusively did a HR EF > HS EF > repeat (with prisms weaved in) rotation as to keep EF ticking on every single raid member (with the stand-in-middle-and-nuke tactic) and yet I got no further than 47k hps. As far as I've deduced this should be the healing style with the most hps for spread fights.

    Also, during avenger and heavy raid damage, should I spam EF, or LoD?
    Primordius: You didn't have Beacon on a Tank...also maybe it's just my aversion to using EFs at lower HP but it would seem to me that using more 3 HP EFs on players with more healing in between with HR rather than your second 1 HP EF would be better HPS. Also with a heavy damage fight like Primordius, I think it would also help keep people alive more.
    Horridon: Your HS use is nice is great but you need to HR more. Delaying your HS to get off a HR which will do more healing on the raid isn't a bad thing.
    Iron Qon: I don't see anything that pops out to me from looking at the log. You didn't use GotAK or Divine Favor. You should probably spend less HP on LoD healing and stay more with EF. Also make sure you're trying to Daybreak the melee rather than ranged since the spell only jumps up to 10 yards.

    Regarding Avenger and heavy raid damage, there are some fights like Megaera or end of Iron Qon where I'll exclusively used LoD with Avenger. However, if I'm prepping for raid damage or dealing with more spread out raid damage for an extended period like on Jin'rokh or for almost any fight where the raid isn't stacked in one place I usually use it on EF.
    Last edited by monikasun88; 2013-08-05 at 02:59 PM.

  7. #787
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Just one note on Horridon, you aren't going to beat a competent disc priest.

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    Council of Elders:Actually, a majority of your wipes at least your first few deaths from things are from people dying to frostbite. I'm not sure how your raid is set up to heal this but typically my raid just heals through one and lets the next frostbite person die. However if you have 2-3 people dying to frostbite consistently then you will be coming in to trouble with dark power among other things. Twisted fate is a problem but the first few deaths in your raid don't typically seem to be due to that. As long as you have one person designated to stand out of the raid then you should be fine. Also your raid will definitely need to pop cooldowns to heal through frostbite either single tanking it or stacking for it. If you're trying to do the stacking strategy which I'm guessing you might be doing since you have multiple people dying to it at once, then you need to be cleaner about it. It's more complicated and harder to pull off than single healing it though as you've probably experienced.
    Thanks for the help. You're right about the deaths being mostly to the second Frostbite, I'm not entirely sure why that is... I do know that the stacking positions being slightly too spread out has been brought up as problematic by one of our DPS, so I'll look into that.

    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    Tortos: The logs I see have you sitting at 100K...I'm not sure if I'm just having a momentary lapse of intelligence or something. 100K HPS on Tortos isn't bad but with more mastery you would be able to push that up by more, something you seem to be adamant against even trying out. Primordius is just a heavy raid damage fight. Your raid needs to continue to be spread during it otherwise there's several abilities like Acidic Explosion or Pustule Eruption which will do damage in an AOE radius. At least one of these is avoidable as well, people just need to be aware of what they're standing on and move out of it. If you don't have the healing for this fight you just won't be able to survive through it.
    Iron Qon: Your warlock should have a portal up for the healers to port out of after the storm. That way it's easier for you to heal the DPS running around. If they're getting caught by the tornado that's their own fault.
    Tortos: I don't know... 110k sounds extremely low for a fight without over-healing but the fight is out of the way so I'm not worried -- just annoyed. I was mostly asking out of curiosity.
    Primordius: Thanks for the pointers.
    Iron Qon: Many of our players, including the warlock have had problems with real life obligations so we've been "pugging" 2-3 new players every week. Point being, we had no warlock. Regardless, I'm not worried about it and only wish to know whether it's important to keep healing while moving through the tornadoes. In any case, I plan to work on better devotion aura management with the prot paladin and perhaps simply bubbling my way through the maze in order to get rid of the debuff as soon as possible. (I've been saving it for the purpose of clicking people out during the following phases -- which is sub-optimal)

    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    With all of this, I find it interesting that you're asking here for help but refuse to take the most important bit of help that people can offer on your gearing strategy. Granted, socketing mastery vs crit might not be the reason that your raid is wiping on things like Council or Iron Qon where those are mechanics related wipes but all fights require a certain healing output to deal with the damage. You're going to have a much easier time doing the fights with the right gearing strategy. You may have heard somewhere that crit is our best stat, and it is purely from a numbers stand point. BUT considering the healing environment especially for your raid (absorbs, hots), considering how mana-intensive all of our skills are, considering that it's not a reliable proc (70% of the time you'll just be healing regular levels and you don't get to pick which 70% of the time it is) it's just not an optimal build to play with. The same thing could be said for any DPS or Tank that goes in to a raid with the wrong gear but does all the mechanics correctly. Why are you making it harder for yourself? What kind of theorycrafting are you doing to say that crit is better than mastery? Any kind of theorycrafting for healing is shoddy at best and needs to be backed up with the right assumptions to even be relevant. And, even then from fight to fight it's extremely variable. Forget theorycrafting. Just go look through your own world of logs for real-life situations and see how much overhealing you're doing. See on average how much your crits are actually healing for. Your crits may be be healing for on average slightly more than non-crits. Imagine however that your mastery is sitting around 35%. Every single one of your heals would be healing for 35% more with very little overhealing. Also the shields from your EF among other spells puts a buffer on your raid allowing for more mistakes and messy fights AKA progression fights. If you're really looking to improve your play then you should not be against at least trying out a build that a majority of the holy paladin community is using, not because it's the social norm but because it's the best build and puts out the best numbers in a real raid environment.
    Reading something so reasonable and thorough is very refreshing. I'm not at all against the idea of trying various mastery builds, which I have done more than a dozen times. The thing is, I'm reluctant to follow questionable advice without first doing my own research to back it all up, as anyone should be, which in no way means that I'm not synthesizing all of the information being brought forth. I've started to realize that the problem is unlikely to be related to our raw output as a healing team but instead to less obvious facets of the various meta-games -- which is part of the reason I've decided to make the switch to a more balanced mix of Crit and Mastery for the time being. For one, I was relegating myself to picking up any left-overs from my other healer(s) which has lowered my potential impact on the raid. I'm planning to adopt a much more proactive role in the future in order to assert myself as the "first line of defense" so to speak.

    I've heard Crit is our best stat in terms of pure throughput and verified it myself. Of course, it's not much use once one begins to over-gear content which is one of the situations I currently find myself into -- it also doesn't help other players follow mechanics. I do look through my logs and have a keen focus on my over-healing -- it usually drops to the likes of 0-20% during more demanding time scales which is what I've always preferred to focus on as a healer.

    Also, I'm completely against meter-padding and that's probably why I dislike the way our mastery has been designed. Our niche as holy paladins should be faster hard casts, in my opinion -- not this abomination of a play-style.

    Much thanks.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-05 at 06:56 PM.

  9. #789
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    As Freia said, on Horridon you simply will not beat a good disc priest, and results such as yours are not uncommon. Period. Especially not 3 healing for that matter (the disc will take almost all of the healing to himself).

    Iron Qon: You could sneak in another Holy Avenger after the Wind Storm; also you aren't using Divine Favor. Typically I'll use CD's at the start, after the Wind Storm, and when the Quilen land at the start of Phase 4. Damren is a regen phase.

    Primordius: 3 stack EF's are usually more efficient (due to GCD's) than 1 stack.

  10. #790
    LackJester: Regarding mechanics, if Frostbite deaths continues to be a progression roadblock on H Council, perhaps consider picking up Hand of Purity (this also could extend to your prot paladin). But I would definitely recommended HoP on H Primoridus. It really helps negate the extensive dot damage.

  11. #791
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensu View Post
    LackJester: Regarding mechanics, if Frostbite deaths continues to be a progression roadblock on H Council, perhaps consider picking up Hand of Purity (this also could extend to your prot paladin). But I would definitely recommended HoP on H Primoridus. It really helps negate the extensive dot damage.
    Not for frostbite. That got nerfed a long time ago because it made frostbite a joke.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Not for frostbite. That got nerfed a long time ago because it made frostbite a joke.
    I was under the impression that the flat damage reduction still works with frostbite. I was aware that the periodic DR didn't work.

  13. #793
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensu View Post
    I was under the impression that the flat damage reduction still works with frostbite. I was aware that the periodic DR didn't work.
    The flat 10% does, but that really isn't enough on progression.

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    The flat 10% does, but that really isn't enough on progression.
    Agreed It's just to weak.

  15. #795
    Well managing frostbite with 2groups of healers/ranged is not THAT hard. just an 8sec debuff to watch before switching groups to mitigate damage.

  16. #796
    Yeah 10% damage reduction from hand of purity really isn't worth the GCD to cast it. It takes damage down to 270k from 300k? Far better to cast heals because that's a marginal benefit.

  17. #797
    So, I'm not sure if I'm missing something entirely obvious or I'm just playing against better healers, but I've noticed that my healing just seems to be going downhill. I started out pretty good at the start of MoP and was still doing fine with the mastery nerf but it just feels like I'm struggling on getting my heals out there, primarily against Disc priests and Monks.

    I'm currently raiding with a Disc priest who is 10 ilvls below me and its irking the heck out of me that his throughput is higher on some fights. (This is probably because he says, "Suck it Ceresc I beat you." and I haven't been justified in saying it back- like ever since I started raiding with him again. I just plain outgear him.) Nav and I have been raiding together on and off since Wrath and its been a constant squabble over who is "winning" (Its just our thing) But I've most often been of the mindset that a better healer will still outperform a better class. Generally skill wise, he and I are somewhat near each other. I'm confident saying he is better, but we've always been pretty close. It doesn't feel that close anymore. Am I getting worse, or are Disc Priest just that much better? I'm okay with him performing better when we are geared equally but I feel like I'm just plain bad with him beating me and I outgear him.

    So here are my general logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/212743/
    This is particular though: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...?s=8273&e=8674 That was incredibly embarrassing.

    Any constructive criticism is welcome.

  18. #798
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    So, I'm not sure if I'm missing something entirely obvious or I'm just playing against better healers, but I've noticed that my healing just seems to be going downhill. I started out pretty good at the start of MoP and was still doing fine with the mastery nerf but it just feels like I'm struggling on getting my heals out there, primarily against Disc priests and Monks.
    coughcough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    I'm currently raiding with a Disc priest who is 10 ilvls below me and its irking the heck out of me that his throughput is higher on some fights. (This is probably because he says, "Suck it Ceresc I beat you." and I haven't been justified in saying it back- like ever since I started raiding with him again. I just plain outgear him.)... Am I getting worse, or are Disc Priest just that much better? I'm okay with him performing better when we are geared equally but I feel like I'm just plain bad with him beating me and I outgear him.
    Bolded parts are the only relevant things.


    ---

    More specifically, on trivial content (like 10N twins), Atonement spam alone is nearly impossible to beat even from a average geared disc. Add in halfway good SS usage (let's say he gets good SS's about 50% of the time and wiffs it about the other 50%) and you're not beating him.

    Might I also add on twins, by the way, that to get stacks in Phase 1 a disc must do one of three things:

    1) PW:S directly on the tank.
    2) Cast Prayer of Healing in his group and have it hit him (not sure why anyone would bother in this phase).
    3) Use a 90 talent other than Cascade (why you'd do this I don't know) and hit the tank with it.

    Nothing else adds stacks no matter what.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-08 at 03:09 AM.

  19. #799
    I doubt that disc priest is the real problem seeing as Ceresc does like 91k on the heroic version of the fight.

    That's definitely not normal in 540 gear.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    I doubt that disc priest is the real problem seeing as Ceresc does like 91k on the heroic version of the fight.

    That's definitely not normal in 540 gear.
    Uhmm... Are we talking about the same fight?
    The outgoing damage is just too low on Twins HC.

    Your kill from yesterday:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c...=13161&e=13680

    You can't do HPS if there is nothing to heal...
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Twin_...00000000111111

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    -snip-
    The only thing which is strange for me, is that you use your lv90 talents rarely, especially on your Megarea kill. It is one of the fights where holy palas are nice.
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Megae...00000000111111

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