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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Uhmm... Are we talking about the same fight?
    The outgoing damage is just too low on Twins HC.

    Your kill from yesterday:
    -can't post links-

    You can't do HPS if there is nothing to heal...
    -can't post links-

    - - - Updated - - -



    The only thing which is strange for me, is that you use your lv90 talents rarely, especially on your Megarea kill. It is one of the fights where holy palas are nice.
    -can't post links-
    Did you mean to write "our" kill? Because those logs aren't mine.

    What I said relies on the entirety of his/her guild's logs over the past month and a half, although I decided to keep it simple and direct the focus onto his/her problems with the heroic version of the fight. For obvious reasons, normal kills can't be taken seriously except perhaps Megaera.

    *Ceresc: I'll look into it another day and try to help you out. Can't do it right now.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-08 at 04:22 AM.

  2. #802
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    I doubt that disc priest is the real problem seeing as Ceresc does like 91k on the heroic version of the fight. That's definitely not normal in 540 gear.
    So? Overhealing on Heroic (7:46 attempt): 42.9 %. Overhealing on Normal: 55.6 %. So the output is similar, with normal being ~5k less output as it absolutely should be seeing as you are likely not feeling very obligated to cast much especially with a disc pre-absorbing a bigger % of the damage.

    I gave you an example before on your own log regarding interpreting overheal % and your tone was completely dismissive in response to me, so understand if I tell others in this Help Forum not to take your advice for any value at all, whatsoever. The last thing any of the advice-seekers here need is people giving wrong information to them.

    Going to quote Nairobi's excellent saying from a Protection thread:
    It's your right to have an opinion, but it's our duty to prevent you from sharing it if it is egregiously incorrect.
    I could be in 1,000,000,540 item level gear, and if there's 60k damage going out to the raid per second, I will not top out 60k hps.

    ---

    @ Ceresc: In all honesty your log is fine. You should not worry at all about a single normal mode hps parse especially if healing with a disc of any respectable item level (520+) unless your raid is dying. Nor should you really worry about Horridon versus a disc priest (even on H) with numbers, he *will* beat you every time even if less geared.

    Worry more about spot healing people up and using throughput CD's at the very end (when War God is out), etc.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-08 at 05:28 AM.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    Did you mean to write "our" kill? Because those logs aren't mine.

    What I said relies on the entirety of his/her guild's logs over the past month and a half, although I decided to keep it simple and direct the focus onto his/her problems with the heroic version of the fight. For obvious reasons, normal kills can't be taken seriously except perhaps Megaera.

    *Ceresc: I'll look into it another day and try to help you out. Can't do it right now.
    "You made a silly grammatic error, thus your argument is invalid!11!!"

    I just think that he/she does fine, since:

    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/blee...reaker-10H-501
    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/blee...Ji-Kun-10H-501
    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/blee...on_Qon-10H-501
    etc...

    He/she does fine.
    Heck even the lv90 talent thingy that I mentioned happened only last week:
    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/blee...egaera-10N-501

    I won't start to search for minor errors in someones logs who regularly ends up in the top 5-10%. Duh.

  4. #804
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Heck even the lv90 talent thingy that I mentioned happened only last week:
    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/blee...egaera-10N-501
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/mz4bu...2Ceresc%22+%29

    There are 5 casts of Light's Hammer which is the maximum possible that attempt, and their raid (on normal) had back to back rampage. The only thing that could have been done better is delaying the 4th Light's Hammer until the 5th rampage (which would in turn clip a large portion of the LH out of the 6th rampage), which is more of something noticed in hindsight (it's very difficult to predict if you delay, that your next LH would in fact be up in time for the 6th, most hard hitting rampage).

    But when you're farming the boss and it's so easy and you're getting back to back rampage, fuck, I don't know if I'd even really care to be that clever.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/mz4bu...2Ceresc%22+%29

    There are 5 casts of Light's Hammer which is the maximum possible that attempt, and their raid (on normal) had back to back rampage. The only thing that could have been done better is delaying the 4th Light's Hammer until the 5th rampage (which would in turn clip a large portion of the LH out of the 6th rampage), which is more of something noticed in hindsight (it's very difficult to predict if you delay, that your next LH would in fact be up in time for the 6th, most hard hitting rampage).

    But when you're farming the boss and it's so easy and you're getting back to back rampage, fuck, I don't know if I'd even really care to be that clever.
    Indeed... Strange, I just looked at the tick count, which was almost half of other attempts, but maybe I'm missing something..?

  6. #806
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    The raid wasn't always stacked on the hammer. One way this happened was that hammer was placed late, due to the rampages being less than 1 minute apart.

    Another thing that could have happened was either people didn't stack, ran out early, or the hammer was misplaced, due to it hitting only 4-6 members out of 10 of the raid.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    I doubt that disc priest is the real problem seeing as Ceresc does like 91k on the heroic version of the fight.

    That's definitely not normal in 540 gear.
    Yeah because ilvl and hps on one meter = skill...
    I mean, meters for healers is all about context and how did the fight go for the raid. It never ever meant squat except on some fight with constant damage and long duration such as MAYBE garalon HC, Chimaeron and such... and yet, it wouldn't mean anything because the first factor for hps is : who am I healing with, how, why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    The outgoing damage is just too low on Twins HC.

    You can't do HPS if there is nothing to heal...

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Twin_...00000000111111

    Sigh, glad to see someone is agreeing with me on this

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    So? Overhealing on Heroic (7:46 attempt): 42.9 %. Overhealing on Normal: 55.6 %. So the output is similar, with normal being ~5k less output as it absolutely should be seeing as you are likely not feeling very obligated to cast much especially with a disc pre-absorbing a bigger % of the damage.

    I gave you an example before on your own log regarding interpreting overheal % and your tone was completely dismissive in response to me, so understand if I tell others in this Help Forum not to take your advice for any value at all, whatsoever. The last thing any of the advice-seekers here need is people giving wrong information to them.

    Going to quote Nairobi's excellent saying from a Protection thread:


    I could be in 1,000,000,540 item level gear, and if there's 60k damage going out to the raid per second, I will not top out 60k hps.

    ---

    *Ceresc: In all honesty your log is fine. You should not worry at all about a single normal mode hps parse especially if healing with a disc of any respectable item level (520+) unless your raid is dying. Nor should you really worry about Horridon versus a disc priest (even on H) with numbers, he *will* beat you every time even if less geared.

    Worry more about spot healing people up and using throughput CD's at the very end (when War God is out), etc.
    I "dismissed" your "argument" because I felt it was irrelevant to what I wanted out of my healing at the time. As I mentioned later on in the thread, it doesn't matter whether my over-healing sits at 99% on average if it drops to 10% during the time spans in which my healing actually matters. We clearly have diverging views on over-healing but I can guarantee your advice is not nearly as good as you seem to think it is. What you recommended to me wasn't wrong per-say but the reasoning behind it certainly was. I don't blame you though, most the people who post here are absolute garbage and you don't know anything about me.

    Now, if you can keep your hatred to yourself and stay on topic, that'd be great. I honestly don't like you either but I think it's better for people to do as I do and just think for themselves. At this moment and regardless of the truth of your claims, I see no valid reason whatsoever for anyone to ignore you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    "You made a silly grammatic error, thus your argument is invalid!11!!"

    I just think that he/she does fine, since:

    ---can't link----
    etc...

    He/she does fine.
    Heck even the lv90 talent thingy that I mentioned happened only last week:
    ---can't link----
    First of all, I didn't ignore your argument -- I don't know what your problem is and I wasn't sure whether the logs were of you, or of what you may have believe to be one of my characters. As for Ceresc's rankings, they just aren't that impressive given her gear level. There definitely exist ways to increase her performance further, as is the case for myself and 99.9% of the people playing this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    I won't start to search for minor errors in someones logs who regularly ends up in the top 5-10%. Duh.
    Unless what you're trying to say is that you're not good enough to give advice, maybe you should, if only because she's asking for help.

    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Yeah because ilvl and hps on one meter = skill...
    I mean, meters for healers is all about context and how did the fight go for the raid. It never ever meant squat except on some fight with constant damage and long duration such as MAYBE garalon HC, Chimaeron and such... and yet, it wouldn't mean anything because the first factor for hps is : who am I healing with, how, why?
    All right, you apparently didn't read what I wrote last night which was that I based what I said on the entirety of her logs (ie. H Tortos / H Iron Qon / N Meg) over the past couple months.

    I do agree H Twins isn't the best example but it should still be the focus of the discussion (IMO) as it's what she's progressing on.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-08 at 07:43 PM.

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    I doubt that disc priest is the real problem seeing as Ceresc does like 91k on the heroic version of the fight.

    That's definitely not normal in 540 gear.
    Ceresc hasn't done Megaera heroic so how do you figure? There isn't enough damage on normal to get much higher than that while 3 healing. Get off your high horse.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Ceresc hasn't done Megaera heroic so how do you figure? There isn't enough damage on normal to get much higher than that while 3 healing. Get off your high horse.
    I wasn't referring to Megaera heroic, and what high horse? You seriously think her healing is optimal for 540?

    Just take a moment and explain to me how 113k HPS on H Tortos attempts is good. I don't care about your horse.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-08 at 07:55 PM.

  11. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    What high horse? You seriously think her healing is optimal for 540?

    I don't care about your horse. Just take a moment and explain to me how 113k HPS on H Tortos attempts is good.
    Please show me your high logs with you 3 healing Megaera 10n with two competent cohealers, it won't happen. It doesn't matter what her gear level is. To get higher parses they have to lower the numbers of healers. On raidbots the average is 81k(set to all parses). If you have it set to top 100, you are getting everyone solo healing it to rank because that is what you have to do to get higher hps, drop healers not get more gear.



    As for heroic tortos attempts. 113k hps...

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00000000111111

    Looks pretty good to me!

    But judging healing on wipes by looking at the final hps....try looking at the chart instead of factoring in the decline that happens when the attempt goes south.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-08-08 at 08:02 PM.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    I wasn't referring to Megaera heroic, and what high horse? You seriously think her healing is optimal for 540?

    Just take a moment and explain to me how 113k HPS on H Tortos attempts is good. I don't care about your horse.
    Depends a lot, really. On Tortos HC you don't need that much HPS so the problem is the same and disc can't abuse debuffs like other healers can.

    Just last night we had resto druid doing 160k hps and holy pala 120k hps, both 545 ilvl. So no, you don't need that much HPS so that's a bad fight really to argue. Not all healers want to top the meters just for the fun when the duty is to keep no one from dying. We are not dps.

    EDIT: Freia beat me to it.

  13. #813
    worldoflogs.com/reports/moar1pjrgsu3xm1u/sum/healingDone/?s=4459&e=4888

    I don't take outliers into consideration. Nor do I care enough about Megaera enough to keep this aspect of the conversation going.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Depends a lot, really. On Tortos HC you don't need that much HPS so the problem is the same and disc can't abuse debuffs like other healers can.

    Just last night we had resto druid doing 160k hps and holy pala 120k hps, both 545 ilvl. So no, you don't need that much HPS so that's a bad fight really to argue. Not all healers want to top the meters just for the fun when the duty is to keep no one from dying. We are not dps.

    EDIT: Freia beat me to it.
    There is plenty of room in that fight for higher HPS and they wiped plenty of times on it.

    As for heroic tortos attempts. 113k hps...

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00000000111111

    Looks pretty good to me!

    But judging healing on wipes by looking at the final hps....try looking at the chart instead of factoring in the decline that happens when the attempt goes south.
    Well, I disagree.

    Attempts HPS are usually higher than final. Here's their log for the kill:
    worldoflogs.com/reports/platlz9smw5k46bx/sum/healingDone/?s=1325&e=1802

    I actually wonder what the average item level for Raidbot's Tortos data might be...



    You guys don't want to help her? Fine. She's actually one of the very few people who I know with certainty actually gave Crit a shot, so I have a lot of respect for her as a person. I'm terrible at reading logs but I wish I could recommend something to help.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-08 at 08:29 PM.

  14. #814
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    Did you even look at the chart on that 113k attempt like I said? The hps was higher and then took a big drop as the attempt went south. Yea you don't know logs or have a grasp on how healing works in general. You said that they pulled 91k on heroic megaera and that was proof they were doing poorly. They haven't killed heroic meg and the 91k was normal meg they were 3 healing. 91k on normal meg is more than fine and what I said is true. At this point for ceresc to do more healing on normal meg, the raid needs to drop healers(or heal with horribly undergeared/awful healers) because there is just not enough damage in normal mode.

    I guess you are so bad at reading logs that you didn't notice Ceresc died twice to bats on the H Tortos kill?

  15. #815
    No, I said she pulled 91k on Heroic Twins. You're just putting words in my mouth at this point. I don't even know what you're talking about nor why you're so hell-bent on looking only at Megaera. And yes, I completely agree that 3-healing is overkill but it definitely didn't seem to be in the log I linked you to, which incidentally happens to be her highest ranked.

    Don't you think not dying to bats would've been nice? Even though it realistically only mattered once. Why don't you go ahead and recommend more of the same instead of trying to attack me personally?

    May I ask that you keep your emotions in check? I don't enjoy doing it for you.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-08 at 09:49 PM.

  16. #816
    Personally I'm going to start stacking all parry gear as a holy paladin because none of you have done any testing at all. Theorycrafting falls all to pieces when you get out in the real world.

    PARRY PALLY FTW!!

    On topic: Lackjester you have given no one in this thread any reason to believe any advice you hand out is valid. You've dismissed the entirety of what a lot of much better progressed, much higher ranking paladins than yourself have recommended and then turned around and professed to be of assistance to someone asking for help who pulls better percentages than you.

    You can do whatever you want as long as you and your raid are cool with it but when someone is asking for advice what they want is the prevailing best practices which you admittedly don't follow.
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  17. #817
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    No, I said she pulled 91k on Heroic Twins.
    And after factoring in overhealing, the math said that her output was the same on heroic as on normal, very slightly higher on heroic as it should be since you would think that something called "nuclear inferno" might provoke more heal spam than on normal.

    If you can't understand this, you need to just stop posting here and giving out more bad advice. Going to quote Nairobi again since it didn't seem to get to your brain the first time:

    It's your right to have an opinion, but it's our duty to prevent you from sharing it if it is egregiously incorrect.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-08 at 09:59 PM.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackjester View Post
    No, I said she pulled 91k on Heroic Twins. You're just putting words in my mouth at this point. I don't even know what you're talking about nor why you're so hell-bent on looking only at Megaera. And yes, I completely agree that 3-healing is overkill but it definitely didn't seem to be in the log I linked you to, which incidentally happens to be her highest ranked.

    Don't you think not dying to bats would've been nice? Even though it only mattered once. Why don't you go ahead and recommend more of the same instead of trying to attack me personally?
    It doesn't help if you're just bashing the people who take their time to help other ppl and making statement like this one "I don't blame you though, most the people who post here are absolute garbage and you don't know anything about me." I feel like you're taking this too personal.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Personally I'm going to start stacking all parry gear as a holy paladin because none of you have done any testing at all. Theorycrafting falls all to pieces when you get out in the real world.

    PARRY PALLY FTW!!
    Yet another appeal to emotion. I'm usually good at deciphering this stuff but I can't tell what the underlying argument is meant to be in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    On topic: Lackjester you have given no one in this thread any reason to believe any advice you hand out is valid. You've dismissed the entirety of what a lot of much better progressed, much higher ranking paladins than yourself have recommended and then turned around and professed to be of assistance to someone asking for help who pulls better percentages than you.

    You can do whatever you want as long as you and your raid are cool with it but when someone is asking for advice what they want is the prevailing best practices which you admittedly don't follow.
    Have you? I haven't "dismissed the entirety" of what has been recommended to me. I try not to bend blindly to authority figures for many reasons.

    Whether people are truly following the "best practices" is very much up to debate, unlike what you claim.

    It doesn't help if you're just bashing the people who take their time to help other ppl and making statement like this one "I don't blame you though, most the people who post here are absolute garbage and you don't know anything about me." I feel like you're taking this too personal.
    If you have issues with any statement of mine, ask me for clarification or retraction instead of jumping the gun. I do make mistakes or say cryptic things sometimes.

    For example, I'm going to ask you: "How am I bashing the people who take their time to help other people" because I frankly don't understand what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Lackjester; 2013-08-08 at 10:37 PM.

  20. #820
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    You can do whatever you want as long as you and your raid are cool with it but when someone is asking for advice what they want is the prevailing best practices which you admittedly don't follow.
    This isn't even about "best practice" anymore nor is it about "crit versus mastery," the simple fact is that this person's facts are just plain wrong.

    1) He is stating that output, effectively, should be a function of item level. That's not how it works for healers. The fact is simply wrong.

    2) He is comparing a 91k heroic attempt parse to a 68k normal kill parse and acting like the output in the latter was bad, when in fact the actual output pre-effective healing in both attempts was roughly the same, with slightly more output in heroic as should 100% be expected. If anything, there should be an even greater spread between those two parses.

    3) He's acting like someone is bad for dying to bats, where aside from a quick salv (maybe), there is absolutely no way to prevent or permanently dump healing aggro, and given that aggro can be taken in very little time to react with the cooldown, depending on situation it can be nearly impossible to avoid dying whatsoever.

    4) Raidbots for healers always should be taken with a grain of salt (I really don't think this person's epeen will be swinging if his own raidbots is posted, by the way, though). Many factors other than gear and even player skill can affect healing parses.

    ---

    Again after this thread has been derailed, I'm through with this back and forth. The four points above, at that, are intended for everyone here to read and should be taken seriously by all players in general who are looking for advice regarding heal output.

    Taking these points into consideration, I'm going to stand by what I posted earlier to Ceresc, which is that your healing overall throughput itself is fine and that there is no point to comparing HPS parses on normal anything with a disc priest in raid.

    I can look to see if there are any specific extra things you could do to help prevent the wipes on H-Consorts though.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-08 at 10:16 PM.

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