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  1. #841
    Field Marshal Rayocell's Avatar
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    My last Primordius kill I did around 90k hps with a resto shaman, resto druid, and prot pally (they do insane amounts of healing right now). I would have expected your pally to be higher due to the higher gear level compared to me (543 vs 539) and the fact that you were 2 healing it.

    Spirit is a tricky thing because it may not make mathematical sense to take the spirit flask over the int flask, but you need spirit in order to sustain healing, and that depends on the fight and your healing rotation. Are you using a mana-efficient or mana-inefficient rotation? Are you tank healing or raid healing? Is it possible to melee to get mana back via Seal of Insight? How much running around do you need to do? The healers need to ask the question "Am I running out of mana?" If so, why? Legitimately healing hard? Spirit flask makes sense here, especially on progression. Just messing up or using the incorrect rotation? Flasks won't save you there...someone needs to fix what they're doing.

    If you need the regen, take the spirit flask. Otherwise, use the int flask. It's not cut and dry like DPS and tanks.

    For reference, I've had shitty luck with trinkets and I would happily drop my spirit trinket for Lightning-Imbued Challice or (more preferably) Horridon's trink. 14k unbuffed with 33% mastery (also had bad luck with healing plate drops, so about half of my pieces are haste/spirit). If you have Horridon's trink, 12k should be a reasonable amount of spirit to have. The trinket proc is about equal to the spirit trinkets of the tier, usually more, and provides better throughput stats. If it ever drops for me, I might reconsider switching to int flasks.
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  2. #842
    Primordius is a horrible fight to judge output on because of the variability of the buffs. If you get 4 mastery you're going through the roof, 4 stats or 4 crit? Meh.

    I was bitching last night that my own gemming doesn't even make sense to me because of trying to balance spirit vs. mastery so I end up with goofy stuff all over. There a ton on conflicting opinions as to the right level of spirit and we just don't all agree. I don't know if there's a real difference with spirit requirements in 10 vs. 25. It doesn't seem like there should be but I'm down to 15k and a little nervous about it while I hear other people say that they're fine with 12 or 13k and I have friends that are cruising at 16k+ and using spirit food/flasks still.

    If you happen to notice mana levels and all your healers are at 100% all the time they you might want to address it but if they're using the mana they have then they're probably right.

    The best anyone will be able to tell you is if your pally is doing things mechanically correctly. If you want sort of an overview, check the link in my sig.
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    <Raiding Rainbows> is recruiting! Ranged DPS and DKs where are you??

  3. #843
    Mechagnome Bizerk's Avatar
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    While int flasks have higher value per point, you should remember that the increase in % of your total spell power compared to increase of spirit is much lower.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    You should use a talent other than Stay of Execution. Your Prot Paladin can also help out the raid healing with HPrism or LH. Prism should be used on CD if you take it (5:51 attempt), and should always be used on Suen when she is up (same attempt).

    Since Suen is immune to all damage during Nuclear Inferno channels, HPrism cannot be used then, and your hybrid DPS instead of casting deflected lightning bolts should be helping heal.

    Overall the 7:46 attempt doesn't look too bad, if you can solve the issue of your raid bleeding out (and tanking issue with Suen) you should have a kill soon.
    Thank you for the advice. The talent was my main concern, as our monk tank dying and was the only reason that I swapped to ES. I was trying to get it off before his nightmare came up because his beast would slaughter him. I switched it out though as it didn't seem to be any more effective towards keeping him alive and the RL swapped tank roles.

    Baehlit will probably be uber excited to heal during that phase, when he first started ToT we had to convince him not to heal.

  5. #845
    Is it to be expected that my holy paladin should be struggling for mana at higher bosses in 492 ilvl gear? We're killing the bosses fine with pretty much no deaths but I'm suffering very badly from mana loss.

  6. #846
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    The talent was my main concern, as our monk tank dying and was the only reason that I swapped to ES. I was trying to get it off before his nightmare came up because his beast would slaughter him. I switched it out though as it didn't seem to be any more effective towards keeping him alive and the RL swapped tank roles.
    As far as I know you can still use Sacrifice on the Beast tank, you can EF him before the Beast comes out, and worst comes to worst, you can just bubble and heal. Also mind that LoH does not add a stack. Or you can use a single large heal (direct prism, a divine light, 3 point wog) and take a single stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    Baehlit will probably be uber excited to heal during that phase, when he first started ToT we had to convince him not to heal.
    only lasts a few seconds, but even a couple of surges on low people, a dropped healing rain, or a few chain heals can go some ways. Probably be a good idea to drop a totem as you're running in too. Like mentioned anything's better than 'deflect, deflect"...

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by Advantage1 View Post
    Is it to be expected that my holy paladin should be struggling for mana at higher bosses in 492 ilvl gear? We're killing the bosses fine with pretty much no deaths but I'm suffering very badly from mana loss.
    ToT? At 492?
    I wouldn't be surprised about that...
    Try to max your spirit, as on normal the throughput-checks are scare.
    But even on other raids, you might struggle more, as your spirit on your gear will be lower, while your casts still cost the same.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    ToT? At 492?
    I wouldn't be surprised about that...
    Try to max your spirit, as on normal the throughput-checks are scare.
    But even on other raids, you might struggle more, as your spirit on your gear will be lower, while your casts still cost the same.
    Guild is struggling for signups and I just came back to WoW so swapped mains.

    I'm really unlucky in ToT Raid Finder but should be upgrading soon but yeah, I'm running on 12.5k Spirit unbuffed, but then my heals aren't as potent so I obviously spend more mana.

  9. #849
    Thanks for the advice guys, you've all been very helpful and I hope to soon make a lot of improvements in our healing set-up.

    Thank you for the advice. The talent was my main concern, as our monk tank dying and was the only reason that I swapped to ES. I was trying to get it off before his nightmare came up because his beast would slaughter him. I switched it out though as it didn't seem to be any more effective towards keeping him alive and the RL swapped tank roles.
    If beast is giving him trouble make sure he has 15 stacks of elusive brew ready and burns the beast as soon as possible, also using touch of death. As far as I know tank self-heal mechanics should not give the debuff (it was hotfixed some time ago), so he should never die from beast. In the worst case scenario if he goes below 35% he'll be able to spam Expel Harm with desperate measures and survive.

  10. #850
    Hi guys!

    So, to preface this, I want to say up front that I'm a raid leader, and while I try to have an understanding of all classes/roles so that I can help my guildies out when needed/possible, healing is my Achilles heal. That said, I'd like some help both figuring out what our raid's holy paladin (Sathndreni/Kirin Tor) is doing wrong, and more importantly, how I can help him improve. To get started, I'll link to our latest logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/isi0xt77ofza453v/ but feel free to look through the rest for more information.

    At first glance to me it looks like he's not using the right spells at the right time. I was reviewing his healing on last night's DA kill, as well as some of the attempts on IQ, and while in that final attempt on DA he was doing decent (compared to his past performance), I don't think he's doing as well as he really should be. For example, on IQ, when his group (which consisted of him, Velrec, and, first Kanne, then myself on Rhandric) was getting hit by Unleashed Flame, in the time between the first and second hits, none of us received any significant healing, making me wonder who he was healing during that time (on some attempts it caused either Velrec or himself to die).

    I've had one of our raiders try to work with him, but as the raid leader I'd like to get more information so that I'm not clueless as to what's going on, and am better able to both analyze where his weaknesses are and possibly offer suggestions in the future. Thanks in advance for the help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  11. #851
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    At first glance to me it looks like he's not using the right spells at the right time. I was reviewing his healing on last night's DA kill, as well as some of the attempts on IQ, and while in that final attempt on DA he was doing decent (compared to his past performance), I don't think he's doing as well as he really should be. For example, on IQ, when his group (which consisted of him, Velrec, and, first Kanne, then myself on Rhandric) was getting hit by Unleashed Flame, in the time between the first and second hits, none of us received any significant healing, making me wonder who he was healing during that time (on some attempts it caused either Velrec or himself to die).

    I've had one of our raiders try to work with him, but as the raid leader I'd like to get more information so that I'm not clueless as to what's going on, and am better able to both analyze where his weaknesses are and possibly offer suggestions in the future. Thanks in advance for the help.
    There is so much wrong it is difficult to tell where to begin. We can start with:

    1) Not using Holy Shock on CD (37 out of 63 possible on the 6 minute attempt).
    2) Poor usage of the Level 90 talent, Holy Prism. It should ideally be used after every raid AoE the boss does.
    3) Way overemphasizing Holy Light as a heal instead of HP generators. Particularly on Iron Qon, Holy Radiance should be used to heal the stacking group even in 10 man, and I don't see a single cast of it on your 6 minute attempt.

    Of course there are numerous other issues (such as not using cooldowns, not even a single one) but until these two are out of the way his play will suffer regardless.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-12 at 03:47 PM.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    There is so much wrong it is difficult to tell where to begin. We can start with:

    1) Not using Holy Shock on CD (37 out of 63 possible).
    2) Way overemphasizing Holy Light as a heal instead of HP generators.

    Of course there are numerous other issues (such as not using cooldowns, not even a single one) but until these two are out of the way his play will suffer regardless.
    Yeah, I was discussing this with one of our other raiders (who played a holy pally in another guild) after raid last night, and those were the big things we noticed as well. I'm also not sure why he's using Beacon on himself instead of a tank (and then still dying to mechanics that should only kill you if you're brain dead).

    Quick question: I know Holy Shock generates HP, what other HP generators does Holy have? Is it just (divine light, flash of light?) on Beacon like last expansion, or has that changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  13. #853
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    YQuick question: I know Holy Shock generates HP, what other HP generators does Holy have? Is it just (divine light, flash of light?) on Beacon like last expansion, or has that changed?
    I re-edited my post to add a couple more points, but the HP generators are Holy Shock (by far the most efficient), Holy Radiance, and Tower of Radiance (divine light or flash of light on beacon only). Also Crusader Strike if you are in melee, but I still view that as largely optional especially for normal modes.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I re-edited my post to add a couple more points, but the HP generators are Holy Shock (by far the most efficient), Holy Radiance, and Tower of Radiance (divine light or flash of light on beacon only). Also Crusader Strike if you are in melee, but I still view that as largely optional especially for normal modes.
    Thanks. I'll talk with him later and see if I can help him. Any other advice will be great, though I'm not sure if other advice will change once he gets the basics of healing actually figured out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  15. #855
    [QUOTE=rhandric;22053057] To get started, I'll link to our latest logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/isi0xt77ofza453v/ QUOTE]

    Short version is he doesn't have the foggiest what hes doing. He needs to understand that a pallies playstyle is now generating holy power mostly to spend on eternal flame.(EF)
    You do this thru holy shock and holy radiance, HS should be cast on cooldown, HR should be cast on clumped targets for max benefit (eg melee)
    That's a one minute guide to hpala healing.

    I only looked at your Iron Qon 5th attempt because its the longest.
    - He cast holy shock 37 times out of 63. That's very meh.
    - He doesn't use holy radiance It needs to be a go to to generate holy power. If you have the mana for it then HS>HR>HR now you have holy power for an eternal flame. Cast it and rinse repeat.
    - He uses holy light, refer point above. Can't remember when I last cast holy light.

    tl/dr Illuminate healing should be his biggest heal by far (absorbs from overheals) To get to this he needs to generate HP and use EF. He's just casting shitty little direct heals.

    Hes not using his level 90 talent. He used holy prism 3 times when he could have used it 20. His awareness ain't great either because it did next to nothing when he did choose to hit it.

    Add to this he didn't use his throughput cooldowns or his defensive cooldowns, at all. Not once. He should take holy avenger over DP, its a big throughput cooldown,


    An example of what he can do on Iron Qon with holy avenger talented (you get 3 HP for every one you generate) As your group is about to stack pop holy avenger. Now holy shock and you have 3 HP to place a large eternal flame on one stacked person. Holy radiance and now you can place another large eternal flame. Another holy radiance and eternal flame and bingo a 3 person group has big HoT's ticking on them. That took like 12 seconds. You still have tons of time left on the CD so keep pumping out the heals. Any overheals go to shields and 50% of that mass of healing you just did gets thrown thru to the beacon (tank usually)

    Short version, generate holy power as quickly as poss HS>HR>HR and use it on EF. Avoid direct heals like holy light etc. Use those damn thruput CD's.

  16. #856
    So, Deja, if I understand you right, a holy pally's healing should be coming from Illuminated Healing, which should be generated mostly through rolling EF on as many targets as possible, which means the highest priority is generating HP ASAP? Which comes down to using Holy Shock on CD, Holy Radiance in aoe situations, and Divine Light/Flash of Light on the Beacon target in single target situations (and ideally the Beacon would be on the tank, and not on himself)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  17. #857
    Am I right in saying that I should be aiming for 4p with Shoulders, Gloves, Legs and Helm? I prioritize spirit because of my low iLvl and the tier chest has no spirit, with haste and crit.

  18. #858
    5.4 Spirit>Haste>mastery for the 8,5k haste cap ?

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    So, Deja, if I understand you right, a holy pally's healing should be coming from Illuminated Healing, which should be generated mostly through rolling EF on as many targets as possible, which means the highest priority is generating HP ASAP? Which comes down to using Holy Shock on CD, Holy Radiance in aoe situations, and Divine Light/Flash of Light on the Beacon target in single target situations (and ideally the Beacon would be on the tank, and not on himself)?
    That sounds about right. It's a bit dumbed down but I'd be shocked if just that change combined with using thruput CD's and the level 90 talent smartly didn't improve his healing by 50%.

    You should also find out what he uses to heal. i.e does he use something like Vuhdo or does he try to click on healthbars on the screen. Finally, I think its Lucyrotten that posted some nice weakauras here. They give nice visual clues like "cast holy shock naow!

  20. #860
    Thanks for that Deja, that helps a lot. I realize the summary for how to heal was over-simplified, but it gives me a direction to point him and things to look for in logs moving forward.

    Now I just need to figure out a way to get him to work on this before raid on Tuesday, so that he's got these changes under control.

    Again, thanks guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

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