1. #1061
    I'd be careful of instructing someone new to use DL only on a beaconed target. There is the chance he was casting it to...heal his target. You know, what heals are meant to do. This is not an HPS game, it's about keeping people up.

  2. #1062
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fallenangel-succ View Post
    I'd be careful of instructing someone new to use DL only on a beaconed target. There is the chance he was casting it to...heal his target. You know, what heals are meant to do. This is not an HPS game, it's about keeping people up.
    It doesn't matter, he would still be doing it wrong.

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuljimba View Post
    So, I took advice on all fronts and changed to fit the needs of my gear, but something just isn't clicking! I'm not exactly sure why, but I sit around 60-80k hps and I should be pulling around 110k~ without cloak I'd assume?

    I'm not sure what my problem is here. I'm a fairly decent resto shaman, and I know paladin is a bit more complex than Shaman, but I just can't figure out what it is.

    I'm not sure if anyone took a gander but I posted logs up at my original post of about 3 kills, if anyone could take a peek and let me know how bad I am and what I could do to fix my problems, I'd really appreciate it, I'm grasping at straws here.
    As Tungzten briefly went over, you're using too many spells (ironic I know). You should be using almost exclusively HR/HS/EF with additions of your 90 talent of choice (as he says, Holy Prism is pretty good once you've gotten used to using it) and very sparingly, although in 10 man you may find using it and telling the other healers the tank is going to be bombed, may well result in better performance depending on your healing set-up at the time. Running with a Rdruid and Dpriest you probably won't find that a particularly useful tip, but its worth keeping in mind if you run with a different set-up, or drop it down to 2 healers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fallenangel-succ View Post
    I'd be careful of instructing someone new to use DL only on a beaconed target. There is the chance he was casting it to...heal his target. You know, what heals are meant to do. This is not an HPS game, it's about keeping people up.
    DL Beacon > EF target that needs it, provided you have 2 points will usually be a much better idea.

  4. #1064
    Hey there,

    I'm pretty happy with my performance as holy in recent times (25 man, 8/14 heroic now), but I'm looking for advice on going to the next haste cap or not, and any other gemming/reforging advice people might have.
    (can't post links yet)
    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Elle/advanced

  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It doesn't matter, he would still be doing it wrong.
    Insightful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post

    DL Beacon > EF target that needs it, provided you have 2 points will usually be a much better idea.
    If you have 2 holy power, you might as well EF the target that needs it. EF doesn't require 3 holy power for a reason.
    If you just want to proc ToR, you might as well cast FoL over DL.


    I get saying don't cast DL often, as DL is indeed weak and it really should generate HP regardless of who it is cast on, much like HR. That said, this is your single target heal, and there are times where it will serve a purpose.

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by fallenangel-succ View Post
    If you have 2 holy power, you might as well EF the target that needs it. EF doesn't require 3 holy power for a reason.
    If you just want to proc ToR, you might as well cast FoL over DL.


    I get saying don't cast DL often, as DL is indeed weak and it really should generate HP regardless of who it is cast on, much like HR. That said, this is your single target heal, and there are times where it will serve a purpose.
    My second statement was more generalized and not related to the first part. I disagree with just casting FoL though, as you're going to Bubble the (presumed) tank for far more with DL.

  7. #1067
    Hey guys, so I'm trying to help out a friend figure out what their pally healer is doing wrong. He's consistently being outhealed by the other heals and sometimes even the DK tank. He's got close to 18k spirit and still OOM's sometimes. I've tried doing what I can, but being as I don't heal, there's only so much advice I can give.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...6s7/dashboard/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...tbl/dashboard/

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Val View Post
    Hey guys, so I'm trying to help out a friend figure out what their pally healer is doing wrong. He's consistently being outhealed by the other heals and sometimes even the DK tank. He's got close to 18k spirit and still OOM's sometimes. I've tried doing what I can, but being as I don't heal, there's only so much advice I can give.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...6s7/dashboard/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...tbl/dashboard/
    1) Light of Dawn usage with EF talented. Big no-no.
    2) Holy Shock usage low. Take for example http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...?s=2875&e=3240
    A possible of ~60 holy shocks can be casted, but only 48 was used.
    3) No legendary metagem, which is contributing to his mana woes.
    4) Not using Holy Avenger over Divine Purpose.
    5) Non-existent cd usage, like Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath and Guardian of the Ancient Kings.

    Biggest culprit is still the usage of Light of Dawn when EF is slotted. Very big and common mistake by new hpallys.

    Get him to remove Light of Dawn from his bars until he gets used to not touching that spell. Or use SH.

    Quote Originally Posted by fallenangel-succ View Post
    I'd be careful of instructing someone new to use DL only on a beaconed target. There is the chance he was casting it to...heal his target. You know, what heals are meant to do. This is not an HPS game, it's about keeping people up.
    Contrary to what people like you might postulate, 99 times out of 100 having a higher HPS translates into keeping people up better.

    There is only one example I can think of that DL might be remotely useful casting it on a non-beaconed target is while healing in the melee group in 10 mans for dark shamans.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2013-11-03 at 09:45 AM.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  9. #1069
    Please explain why you're casting DL to proc ToR instead of FoL. No, the extra 10k mastery shield is not an answer. Or are you happy to waste IoL procs?

    LoD is useful when you're using GoAK, especially under HA. It's true that generally it's not worth casting.

  10. #1070
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fallenangel-succ View Post
    Please explain why you're casting DL to proc ToR instead of FoL. No, the extra 10k mastery shield is not an answer. Or are you happy to waste IoL procs?

    LoD is useful when you're using GoAK, especially under HA. It's true that generally it's not worth casting.
    What does casting DL instead of FoL have to do with wasting IoL procs?

    If you are EF specced, then LoD is not worth casting ever.

  11. #1071
    I'd pretty much never cast LoD, while spec'd EF, outside of extreme circumstances, like everyone being stacked and is below 25% and immediate danger of dying.

    Also, FoL does not work with IoL, anymore. Hasn't since cata.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val View Post
    Hey guys, so I'm trying to help out a friend figure out what their pally healer is doing wrong. He's consistently being outhealed by the other heals and sometimes even the DK tank. He's got close to 18k spirit and still OOM's sometimes. I've tried doing what I can, but being as I don't heal, there's only so much advice I can give.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...6s7/dashboard/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...tbl/dashboard/
    Also, in addition to what PosPosPos said (I don't necessarily agree with his thoughts on DL usage, but everything else he said is spot on), tell him to take off the Divine Plea glyph, it's essentially a self nerf. Also, the Glyph of Blessed Life is pretty much solely a PvP glyph. He should be using something like Divinity (which I'm surprised he isn't already since it gives 10% of your mana back), Hand of Sac glyph, and then 3rd is whatever (FoL is fine, but I'd prefer PoTI for most fights).

    Also, he's sitting at 10550 haste right now. The EF BP is 10867. Either have him find the haste to get to that BP or, preferably, drop down to 7170 haste and get more mastery.
    Last edited by Hainiryuun; 2013-11-03 at 02:10 PM.

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    What does casting DL instead of FoL have to do with wasting IoL procs?

    If you are EF specced, then LoD is not worth casting ever.
    I disagree. I use LoD with GoAK on Siegecrafter 25 heroic because of split up healing cds and due to to the fact GoAK will just overheal with EF spam during those crushes. It can also be used on Thok heroic on 16~ stacks with GoAK, depending on what raid cds are up at the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisey View Post
    Hey there,

    I'm pretty happy with my performance as holy in recent times (25 man, 8/14 heroic now), but I'm looking for advice on going to the next haste cap or not, and any other gemming/reforging advice people might have.
    (can't post links yet)
    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Elle/advanced
    I personally gemmed for Mastery instead of Int when I got the PPoP-trinket. I also cut down to 3506 mastery, cause I find it better in 25 man when your hots are overhealing to a higher extend. I saw a great increase in HPs on most fights. However, I suppose intellect gemming is the way to go if aiming for 7170 cap; I just don't see it being superior in 25 mans, esp for progress (apart from maybe malkorok/thok).

  13. #1073
    That's exactly the point, using DL to proc ToR wastes IoL procs (specifically, the bonus healing from 2T16), whereas using FoL for the same purpose doesn't use up IoL, which you really want to use on HR.

    The raw healing of GoAK'ed LoD is not that far behind GoAK'ed EF (~500K per cast, EF under guardian is ~600K) because the guardian doesn't duplicate the hot. Once you factor in the likely higher overheal of EF and the more upfront nature of LoD, it becomes superior under GoAK.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by fallenangel-succ View Post
    That's exactly the point, using DL to proc ToR wastes IoL procs (specifically, the bonus healing from 2T16), whereas using FoL for the same purpose doesn't use up IoL, which you really want to use on HR.
    ....and why would it be a waste of IoL? In a situation you want to be casting FoL, DL works fine as well even with the 2pc bonus. If your argument is that DL is going to overheal, then FoL is more than likely to overheal as well, and you may as well just cast HR right away.

    So you are either going to fall into one of these three situations:

    1) Strong single target healing not needed -> Proceed to casting HR with or without IoL up
    2) Strong single target healing needed -> IoL is up -> Proceed to cast DL
    3) Strong single target healing needed -> IoL is not up -> Proceed to cast FoL

    Point is, you are either going to be casting HR(>90% of the time), or DL/FoL depending on IoL proccing(<10% of the time)

    The raw healing of GoAK'ed LoD is not that far behind GoAK'ed EF (~500K per cast, EF under guardian is ~600K) because the guardian doesn't duplicate the hot. Once you factor in the likely higher overheal of EF and the more upfront nature of LoD, it becomes superior under GoAK.
    When GoAK is up, you can get away with casting 2 point or even 1 point EF. You won't overheal as much this way and can get more bang for your buck.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  15. #1075
    I sent this PM to PosPosPos but since he hasn't seen it yet, i'll post it here to get some info:

    I need you to (please) shed me some light on this subject.

    So you say for paladin to NEVER use LOD if they have EF slotted (which is my case): http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...fanny/advanced
    So my doubt is: In 10man (which is what i raid) considering we go 2 heals for most of the fights, what shall i do in intense AOE phases?

    Use all cd's including holy avenger and EF everyone?

    Eternal flame is my nº2 heal (except in malkorok, which is nº1 ofc) and i use it a lot, but still in intense aoe phases i see myself automaticly turning to LOD.

    Please help me understand how to do it better.

    Sorry to bother you and thank you SO much for your time.

    Have a pleasant evening.

    Kind Regards,

    HolyFanny

    Thank you so much all.

    Stand tall.

  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickyz View Post
    I sent this PM to PosPosPos but since he hasn't seen it yet, i'll post it here to get some info:
    The idea behind EF >> LoD, is that unless the entire raid is going to die because you didn't heal them (Thok), then EF does significantly more healing and will generally end up being better for the raid provided other people take that approach as well and use their strengths. There are some exceptions to this, but generally this will be the case.

  17. #1077
    Hello all. I recently had to change mains after a long time of inactivity and my holy pala has become my main now. I am raiding in a 10man guild and our healing setup is shaman,monk and me. They have told me that my healing output is low (after cheking other guilds worldoflogs I assume) and I am here in order to fix that.

    1.wow en character kazzak Aptitud%C3%AA advanced my armory (sorry can't post links)
    2. 184CuU3 (bitly link from worldoflogs on some tries)

    Now I know my gemming might be a bit off I am thinking of changing my spirit gems since I can handle my mana better right now (I struggled a bit when I started). Any suggestions on that?

    On my "rotation" now I spam holy shock on cd, stack holy power to 3 then EF the tanks and then mostly heal with holy light. In AoE situations I use Holy Radiance coupled with EF or Light of Dawn depending on how much the damage is. If tanks or someone else is taking heavy damage I use divine light (especially if I got the cast time proc). I try to spam holy prism on cd too. I tend to use it on an enemy for the aoe healing but I am not sure if this is the right approach. Should I use it in some other way and how?

    Another problem I see myself having is not spamming our big cds enough. By big I mean Guardian of Ancient Kings, Avenging Wrath etc. Can't seem to find the right time on a fight to use them on my advantage. When is the right time to pop em? For instance on Galakras I try to line them all when he gets down and the damage from his dot is getting high.

    I would really like to read your opinion since I am a noob when it comes to paladin healing and still trying to figure things out.

    P.S: In case I forgot to add something tell me and I will edit the post.

  18. #1078
    Before we get started, so everyone else doesn't search like me

    Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AA/advanced
    Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7631&e=8199

    Spirit is going to be different for each person. If you feel comfortable with your mana, it's fine to drop spirit, if you don't, it's fine to add more.

    Going over the logs, spell usage, in terms of percentages isn't bad, to be honest. The main issue is your CD usage and when you use them on Galakras. The add phase really requires little to no cooldown usage, so not using there isn't really an issue. However, when Galakras comes down, that should be nothing but you and your healers chaining cooldowns, one right after the other. On a lot of your wipes, I noticed that the two other healers would spike in healing, but you would remain static, suggesting you're either not using or not coordinating your CD's properly with our co-healers. For me, I generally start with casting Holy Avenger when Galakras comes down and EF blanket the raid. Once HA is over, I then pop Divine Favor and Avenging Wrath, together, and go with a Holy Radiance > Holy Radiance > Holy Shock > Eternal Flame rotation until that runs out. Once that CD is over, pop GoAK and do the same rotation (LoD if necessary if people are being stupid with their stacks, at this point). Don't forget that you have Devotion Aura, as well. I generally try to save it for when I think I can't get people up quickly enough for the next explosion, to make sure the raid lives.

    Also, with regard to your talent choices for this fight, I would take Lights Hammer over Holy Prism. Generally, LH is going to be better for stacked fights while Prism is going to be better for spread fights or fights where the bosses hit box is huge (Immerseus, Norushen, Iron Juggernaut, and Malkarok, mainly). LH is especially the better choice on Galakras for 2 reasons:

    1) You can use it during the add phase to not only heal tanks/melee, but also do a considerable amount of AoE damage to the adds as well

    2) You're not wasting a GCD on Prism every 20 seconds when Galakras is down, when you can just drop LH and forget it while getting insane healing.

    Also, I would personally take unbreakable spirit over clemency on Galakras. There isn't any real need to have 2 of any hand on this fight, but the 30 second Divine Protection and possibly multiple bubbles and 2 Lay on Hands can be raid saving (or at least self saving).

    Your numbers are also probably lagging a bit behind due to gear. Both your co-healers have their legendary cloaks (but your shaman for some reason isn't using the legendary meta, what's up with that?) while you have neither, which puts you a bit behind in ilvl, and makes mana usage a bit more difficult, as well.

    And on a final note, get a belt buckle

  19. #1079
    Afternoon ladies and gents.

    I am part of a casual 10m guild on a small server EU side. I have played my HPala since early MoP and really have enjoyed it. I do not for a second consider myself to be a fluent or good HPala but like to think I know the basics and such. Would be much appreciated to get a bit of feedback from some of you folks onto area's I can look into improving and changing for upcoming heroic attempts.

    Armoury- http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aolop/advanced

    WoL from recent raid- http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...m/healingDone/

    Cheers folks

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by polo53 View Post
    Afternoon ladies and gents.

    I am part of a casual 10m guild on a small server EU side. I have played my HPala since early MoP and really have enjoyed it. I do not for a second consider myself to be a fluent or good HPala but like to think I know the basics and such. Would be much appreciated to get a bit of feedback from some of you folks onto area's I can look into improving and changing for upcoming heroic attempts.

    Armoury- http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aolop/advanced

    WoL from recent raid- http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...m/healingDone/

    Cheers folks
    Would help if you had Holy gear equipped ;-)

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