1. #2421
    Mastery, while being less useful overall due to the lack of consistency and dps, is still a very good build. I was able to tank some heroic SoO stuff with an ilvl 540 paladin simply because of proper Holy Avenger use and only tanking when I needed to. Mastery gets stronger the less you are tanking, because having Holy Avenger's uptime higher for the duration of when you tank means Mastery's overall involvement of mitigation is more consistent. I wouldn't actually gear for mastery on every fight, but it's still great.

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by Fouton View Post
    Mastery, while being less useful overall due to the lack of consistency and dps, is still a very good build. I was able to tank some heroic SoO stuff with an ilvl 540 paladin simply because of proper Holy Avenger use and only tanking when I needed to. Mastery gets stronger the less you are tanking, because having Holy Avenger's uptime higher for the duration of when you tank means Mastery's overall involvement of mitigation is more consistent. I wouldn't actually gear for mastery on every fight, but it's still great.
    The problem with the mastery build is that it is simply to easy to tank this content. The first 10 heroic bosses in SoO is easily tanked with 520-530 ilvl. Thok and Siegecrafter is easy with 540 ilvl. It is not until Paragons that a tank really needs some gear. That is why running a mastery build is not really needed.

    With 540 ilvl I just ran the standard hit>haste>exp>mastery>stam with 1 stamina trinket on some fights for the first 11 heroic bosses. For Siegecrafter and Paragons I opted for hit>haste>mastery>expertise>stam with more emphasis on stamina on Paragons. I was using the same for Garrosh until I realised what a weak boss Garrosh is compared to Paragons so it made me revert back into hit>haste>exp for the dps.

    The mastery build is definately viable and useful. In fact it is the best survival build for several bosses. The problem is just that it is not needed unless you are in like 520 ilvl for heroic content, the bosses hit too weak for our current gear.

    Also, I disagree that mastery is the most useful with Holy Avenger, that is more likely to leave you dead as you will have too much downtime when your HA is down. HA in general has been very lackluster in SoO to be honest. DP is in my opinion much better choice for a mastery build, and in SoO in general. Only real use I found for HA was bursting down Siegecrafter adds. It is pretty solid choice for Thok aswell but I opted for DP to be able to EF the raid more as tank survivability was not an issue.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #2423
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The mastery build is definately viable and useful. In fact it is the best survival build for several bosses. The problem is just that it is not needed unless you are in like 520 ilvl for heroic content, the bosses hit too weak for our current gear.

    Also, I disagree that mastery is the most useful with Holy Avenger, that is more likely to leave you dead as you will have too much downtime when your HA is down. HA in general has been very lackluster in SoO to be honest. DP is in my opinion much better choice for a mastery build, and in SoO in general. Only real use I found for HA was bursting down Siegecrafter adds. It is pretty solid choice for Thok aswell but I opted for DP to be able to EF the raid more as tank survivability was not an issue.
    Working on Thok HC atm and i go HA just for more controlled mitigation when its needed and that its easier to put ot EF on the raid when its needed, eliminating the RNG.
    Overall i havent played a lot with DP. Im at 43% or 45.x% haste with Thok trinket (flex 2/2). I should probably use DP more.

  4. #2424
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearin View Post
    Working on Thok HC atm and i go HA just for more controlled mitigation when its needed and that its easier to put ot EF on the raid when its needed, eliminating the RNG.
    Overall i havent played a lot with DP. Im at 43% or 45.x% haste with Thok trinket (flex 2/2). I should probably use DP more.
    Well, you will not have HA up during the kite phase which is when you want to use EF on the raid. You cant both use HA to EF the raid and get controlled mitigation, it is one of them. HA is decent defensively on Thok, but Thoks damage is honestly not that dangerous, so I still preferred DP since it allowed me to EF more during the kites which was by far the most dangerous part of the fight. Using HA during the kite for EFs would have been an option I guess, but HA during kite would also be a bit awkward and HA only lasts for 18 seconds, the kite lasts for much longer than that, so for EFing the raid DP is for sure superior than HA on Thok.

    But I guess that also depends a bit on your group.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #2425
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, you will not have HA up during the kite phase which is when you want to use EF on the raid. You cant both use HA to EF the raid and get controlled mitigation, it is one of them. HA is decent defensively on Thok, but Thoks damage is honestly not that dangerous, so I still preferred DP since it allowed me to EF more during the kites which was by far the most dangerous part of the fight. Using HA during the kite for EFs would have been an option I guess, but HA during kite would also be a bit awkward and HA only lasts for 18 seconds, the kite lasts for much longer than that, so for EFing the raid DP is for sure superior than HA on Thok.

    But I guess that also depends a bit on your group.
    It didnt feel like a problem alternating SoTA and EF during HA. The damage during first stack phase is pretty scary at 5-6 stacks : )
    We havent had a lot of problem with someone dying during kite phase either. I'll still give DP a go (i should use it more often).

  6. #2426
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearin View Post
    It didnt feel like a problem alternating SoTA and EF during HA. The damage during first stack phase is pretty scary at 5-6 stacks : )
    We havent had a lot of problem with someone dying during kite phase either. I'll still give DP a go (i should use it more often).
    Yeah but the thing is that you do not want SotR and EF during the same parts of the fight, EFs during the stacking phase is kinda useless, and SotR is kinda useless during the Kite phase, and you cant have HA up for both phases.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #2427
    DP works if you don't go above 4-5 stacks on Thok.
    If you go for more (which is the case for solo tanking heroic) then you either need a lot of luck (I mean you can get 60 sec of shor with lucky dp/4p procs) or HA/SW to stay alive.

    I also found that I rarely got the chance to throw out more than 1-2 meaningful heals in the kite phase anyway and since there's almost no way to gain HP once the add is dead healing output seems limited no matter what.
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  8. #2428
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    I also found that I rarely got the chance to throw out more than 1-2 meaningful heals in the kite phase anyway and since there's almost no way to gain HP once the add is dead healing output seems limited no matter what.
    I used to run after Thok for the first 3 kites, for the remaining kites you still get in a solid amount of judgments. But that is why DP was so important for us, DP procs during the kite is really valuable.

    As we were using two tanks, since quite honestly, two tanks, especially two paladin tanks, is much better than solo tanking thok. I had no reason to need any more defensives for myself. Using HA for solo tanking is a whole different thing and I understand that. I have no clue how common it is that people solo tank thok for progression, to me it seems a bit silly. I havent tried solo tanking it myself so not so sure about how viable DP is (or isnt) for that.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-01-21 at 03:46 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #2429
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I used to run after Thok for the first 3 kites, for the remaining kites you still get in a solid amount of judgments. But that is why DP was so important for us, DP procs during the kite is really valuable.

    As we were using two tanks, since quite honestly, two tanks, especially two paladin tanks, is much better than solo tanking thok. I had no reason to need any more defensives for myself. Using HA for solo tanking is a whole different thing and I understand that. I have no clue how common it is that people solo tank thok for progression, to me it seems a bit silly. I havent tried solo tanking it myself so not so sure about how viable DP is (or isnt) for that.
    By now it's the norm if you have a Prot Pala; people are going into Thok progression with huge amounts of gear.

  10. #2430
    In 10man, solo tanking is the norm since day 1 of progression, and EF the raid with 4healers is a waste of HoPo. Another fight which radicaly differs depending on 10 or 25 men situation

  11. #2431
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    In 10man, solo tanking is the norm since day 1 of progression, and EF the raid with 4healers is a waste of HoPo. Another fight which radicaly differs depending on 10 or 25 men situation
    solo tanking was not the norm since day one, we had to duo tank to beat the enrage timer.

    Also I am talking from a 10 man perspective, we used 3 healers, and EF snipes saved lifes of players multiple times, especially during poison kite, heck I found myself casting flash of light several times. I have always been very used to the concept of raid healing as a tank though. I remember in T11 I used to heal the raid all the time.

    Only 4 or so of the first 20 kills was done with 1 tank and many used 4 healers. But only very specific comps allowed for solo tanking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    DP works if you don't go above 4-5 stacks on Thok.
    Btw how many stacks do you take solo tanking? As it is to my understanding that you often transition the boss at very early stacks then. Even when two tanking my other tank would take 6 stacks to get higher vengeance and I took it until transition after that
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-01-21 at 09:34 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #2432
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    solo tanking was not the norm since day one, we had to duo tank to beat the enrage timer.

    Also I am talking from a 10 man perspective, we used 3 healers, and EF snipes saved lifes of players multiple times, especially during poison kite, heck I found myself casting flash of light several times. I have always been very used to the concept of raid healing as a tank though. I remember in T11 I used to heal the raid all the time.

    Only 4 or so of the first 20 kills was done with 1 tank and many used 4 healers. But only very specific comps allowed for solo tanking.

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    Btw how many stacks do you take solo tanking? As it is to my understanding that you often transition the boss at very early stacks then. Even when two tanking my other tank would take 6 stacks to get higher vengeance and I took it until transition after that
    We certainly 2 tanked it going 30 stacks, 30 stacks, low stacks, dead.

    When Garrosh went down I joined another 11/14H guild on my alt to keep raiding more than once a week (of course then mythic so had to run 2 raids in m ain guild each week but yeah)

    They used the 1 tank strat but could barely even get to 10 stacks in each phase (for instance by the time we used our first CDs in my mains guild they'd have used all of their CDs - even compared to when we 2tank2healed it).

    But I've seen it being solo tanked with high stacks too. But It's my understanding that's mostly something you do now that you really outgear it.

  13. #2433
    Regarding Thok, does hand of protection reset/bubble the stacks of the first stack phase debuff? cant remember the name.

  14. #2434
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Btw how many stacks do you take solo tanking? As it is to my understanding that you often transition the boss at very early stacks then. Even when two tanking my other tank would take 6 stacks to get higher vengeance and I took it until transition after that
    It ends up at 7 most of the time - sometimes 8. (that's about 2:1) The Jailor is pretty nasty if you get to 8 since that means you're likely going to still have it up during the enrage.
    On one attempt the boss always used his breath on cd and was very slow with the roar -> I ended up dying with 9 stacks up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearin View Post
    Regarding Thok, does hand of protection reset/bubble the stacks of the first stack phase debuff? cant remember the name.
    I'm pretty sure that's the only one you can't remove at all (the others can be bubbled off)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebubble View Post
    But I've seen it being solo tanked with high stacks too. But It's my understanding that's mostly something you do now that you really outgear it.
    It certainly makes it a lot easier going to 25+ shouts since that will make sure you have your 3 min cooldowns back up for the next round and the boss will usually die before eating the fire guy.
    I'd guess it's more like the other way round where unless you overgear it 10 stacks just doesn't cut it.
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  15. #2435
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    It ends up at 7 most of the time - sometimes 8. (that's about 2:1) The Jailor is pretty nasty if you get to 8 since that means you're likely going to still have it up during the enrage.
    On one attempt the boss always used his breath on cd and was very slow with the roar -> I ended up dying with 9 stacks up.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I'm pretty sure that's the only one you can't remove at all (the others can be bubbled off)

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    It certainly makes it a lot easier going to 25+ shouts since that will make sure you have your 3 min cooldowns back up for the next round and the boss will usually die before eating the fire guy.
    I'd guess it's more like the other way round where unless you overgear it 10 stacks just doesn't cut it.
    As I said earlier I joined a 11/14H guild on my warrior after killing Garrosh on the paladin a few months back. They barely ever got to double digit stacks going 1tank 2 healers and that was the only way they could kill it. Sure they weren't in shit gear at the time but they weren't overgearing it as guilds are today. Certainly liked my own guilds 2 tank strat a lot more.

  16. #2436
    Blademaster Paladinaa's Avatar
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    Ahoy hoy guys! So, my situation. I've been tanking most of this raid on my Brewmaster Monk and now I've had to switch to my Paladin. My Pally was my main before I switched to Monk (just before ToT) but I was holy. Now, I always hear 'Pallies are faceroll blah blah blah' well, that might be the case, but I feel like I'm nubbing it hard compared to other Pally tanks I see.

    My damage is really really bad and I don't feel like I heal anywhere near as much as other pallies heal for. I'll pop in some logs as well, if someone has some pointers for me, I'd be grateful. Have your way with me!

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A1/advanced

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/224100/

    Just try and be kinda nice, I know I have some faults, but I wanna fix them.

  17. #2437
    Everyone who says 'paladins are faceroll' or actually 'x is faceroll' probably doesn't play what they're discussing well. I've done a good amount of log analysis and trust me when I say that based on the logs I've seen there's no reason to believe paladins are 'faceroll.' Most paladin tanks I've seen wouldn't qualify in my opinion as intermediately-skilled, never mind advanced, and it's only the ease of 10m tanking which lets them remain ignorant. Aside: I mean no disrespect to the 10H tanks here, but last week we went 10H for the sole purpose of killing Malkorok, due to our 25H attendance/player failures, and the content in my opinion is trivial to tank, from mechanics such as the # of adds on Malkorok/Norushen to the outgoing damage. I'm in danger of dying in 25H to this day even when outgearing all of the content.

    Anyway back on topic.

    I'd take Divine Purpose over HA with your haste. HA is situational imo, useful for freak things like solo'ing Blood Rage. DP despite its RNG actually gives you more control over your SotR uptime and output by being able to fish for or to hold procs.

    Sha of Pride's a solid barometer to start because it's almost all tank and spank except for soaking the odd rift. Now here's the biggest problem I see. Your SotR uptime is 25%. That is very, very low, and to bring that point home, consider that in T14 respectable SotR uptimes were 40-50% - and that was using T14 haste, which was like what, 8k? (I don't really remember). Your haste is a bit on the low end this tier at 15.6k, but with that figure, and no 4P, you should probably be 55-65% (that's about what I had for haste in T15 and where my numbers were). On our last Sha HC kill I had a 78% SotR uptime for comparison. Granted, it's going to be higher by default, because I have 4P, higher haste, and in 25H the adds actually survive long enough for me to proc Grand Crusader, but the gulf is way too wide to be explained simply by those factors. A better comparison would be on Protectors where it looks like we both tank He, and you had a 38% compared to my 72%. Again some of that difference will be explained by the fact that I tend to abuse 4P for SotR uptime, but this week I didn't really do that all that much because we're trialing new healers and I noticed that I almost died a few times.

    So I'd say before any other analysis you need to correct what you're doing wrong with SotR. Taking Divine Purpose will help, as will some more haste gear, but your root problem has to be much larger than that if your numbers are so far below an acceptable level. Are you keybinding? You might not be generating enough Holy Power. It also appears that you're wasting Holy Power, i.e. not tracking it well enough. 'm not the greatest at calculating missed Holy Power, but it looks like on Protectors you generated 197 total - that should've allowed for 65 Shields of the Righteous, and you used only 51, with one WoG. So that's 13 Shields you wasted, 39 seconds of uptime. Perhaps you need to improve your UI for this. Napkin math tells me that this change alone would've gotten your uptime to 45%.

    You're using Sacred Shield, which isn't the go-to talent this tier, but honestly that's not nearly as big of a deal as your SotR uptime. And until you get your SotR worked out, I'd keep Sacred Shield because without 4p Eternal Flame will share resources with SotR.

    Damage will come with a proper rotation and keybinding. To be honest I don't worry much about damage and rankings. So much of that depends on randomness, strategy, and vengeance. This week we're trialing a new monk tank and he died on Immerseus so I had to solo him for about half the fight + all the adds. Vengeance skyrocketed and I ranked like 28th on the fight despite usually never ranking.
    Last edited by trystero; 2014-01-23 at 03:15 PM.

  18. #2438
    Blademaster LuisKA's Avatar
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    Well first of all, don't compare yourself to your monk. You stand no chance against monk damage and 10 man lower vengeance makes it even worse. Also, haste playstyle does not allow faceroll if you want to be good.

    From a quick view it looks like you need to get used to the rotation. SoTR damage is usually too low that makes me think you could squeeze much better your holy power generation/usage.

    May as well remove battle healer glyph, its a no-go since they nerfed it. You reduce the potential heal of it and no longear heals yourself.

  19. #2439
    Blademaster Paladinaa's Avatar
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    Okay, i'll try the switching to DP > HA. I didn't think my SotR uptime was great at all when I looked over the logs again after I posted this. I'll defs fix that right up.

    Hopefully I'll get 4p sooner then later, been slightly unlucky with some loot.

    Just another question, Paladins solo tanking the Blood Rage Phase during Malkarok, I used to do it on my monk easy (again, comparing to monk only because it's what I know) and the other tank in our comp is a Blood DK. I would have always thought the Blood DK would have been better to soak then what I would have been as a Paladin. Do many of you guys out there solo tank the Blood Rage?

  20. #2440
    Hi guys, bit of a sob story inc but here goes. I have only been raiding since cata came, and in that time i have been in only 2 guilds. My previous guild went from a 25 man guild to a 10 man guild due to lack of progress/leadership, i was'nt one of the chosen tanks to take into 10 man as they had 3 that had been in the guild longer than myself. So some of the guys left over from this started 10 man raiding in a another guild. This guild went on to clearing ToT hc (just about b4 t16 came ) and killing 11/14hc in SoO, then we hit roster problems.... with the announcement of "mythic" the gm seeked another guild to merge with so they could 25 man raid and be ready for WoD. Once again this resulted in me not having a spot in this newly formed 25 man guild (gm is monk tank so do the math with a guild merge :P). I have been on a break from wow up until now for a about a month. I am thinking about looking for another guild to raid with but i have never been a confident tank, i always need a few attempts at something b4 i get the hang of it (still have no clue whats going on with paragons ). So, to the point of this post. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mbjwc2ybg18auv7p/ this is a link to one of my most recent farm raids, what i wanna know from you guys (if possible), am i any good, is it worth me trying to find a new 25 man (only raided 10 man hc this xpac) with similar hc exp to what i have or was i just carried in 10 man???
    Sry for the wall of text but i have had a beer or 2 :P, any input would be much appreciated
    Last edited by Brummie; 2014-01-24 at 12:54 AM.

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