1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So, you're saying this is a job for Ghost Iron Dragonling?
    *siiiiigh*

    Yes, that would probably work :P

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    I could be wrong on this, but I would assume that Durumu functions as almost any stationary boss does, which would allow you to have all players exit melee range while leaving a pet in. The pet will eat the hard stare and then the tank can move back in.

    I haven't actually tested this on Durumu, but I'd imagine we've all seen what I am referring to on Ji'Kun after a Down Draft.
    I might be wrong, but from personal experience his melee range is fucking huge. (Unlike ji-kun)

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I might be wrong, but from personal experience his melee range is fucking huge. (Unlike ji-kun)
    You can (and should!) stand about 25 yards away from Durumu.
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    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  4. #464
    So I coined a gloves token last night after killing Council (normal, only 3/12 N this tier, not a seriously hardcore raiding guild this expansion). Am I right in thinking that it's pretty much a useless token?

    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kirin-tor/myrodradia/advanced

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    So I coined a gloves token last night after killing Council (normal, only 3/12 N this tier, not a seriously hardcore raiding guild this expansion). Am I right in thinking that it's pretty much a useless token?

    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kirin-tor/myrodradia/advanced
    Grats on Ret gloves!

    Aim for the gloves off of Primo (best) or IQ (not bad, but Crit).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Grats on Ret gloves!

    Aim for the gloves off of Primo (best) or IQ (not bad, but Crit).
    Yeah, I'm looking forward to (eventually) getting the gloves from Primo...and the irony is last week I bought the ret gloves from VP since I ran out of useful VP items (and needed to prevent capping so I could keep progressing for the 6k valor quest) So for now, I guess I'll keep the token and see what upgrades come my way, potentially using them as a stop-gap if/when I get a compelling reason (ie, more than 1 sub-par pair of gloves...) to break my 4T14.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  7. #467
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    Last night I had a healer complain for the first time on our first kill of Durumu 10N (we are a very casual guild). I was looking over my logs and noticed there were several problem areas that really stood out.

    I didn't use DP as often as I should, felt I needed to save it for the beam phase and solo soaking which I should correct in the future.
    My sacred shield uptime could be better.
    Not sure if my SoTR uptime should be better but instinct tells me it should.

    I convinced them to let me solo tank the fight. We did last week and almost killed it on our first attempt. It was late so we didn't get to put many attempts in. This week, I again convinced them that solo tanking is more beneficial. Again, we were frequently hitting the execute phase but it seemed that on each of our attempts someone had a fail moment which eventually caused a wipe.

    The complaining about going two tanking was loud enough that I caved in out of frustration. It took a few more attempts but we finally got the kill. Looking at the meters afterwards I noticed that I was doing 30k less dps and my OT was doing about the same amount of dps as he was in his dps spec so it appeared to not really be beneficial to two tank the boss. The overall damage taken by both tanks was similar if not more than me tanking solo.

    What can you see wrong by my logs.

    Not a kill but was our best attempt while I was solo tanking.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=9194&e=9679

    Durumu kill
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...=12926&e=13507

    Feel free to look at the other logs that night or of our earlier kills on May 1st.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    Last night I had a healer complain for the first time on our first kill of Durumu 10N (we are a very casual guild). I was looking over my logs and noticed there were several problem areas that really stood out.

    I didn't use DP as often as I should, felt I needed to save it for the beam phase and solo soaking which I should correct in the future.
    My sacred shield uptime could be better.
    Not sure if my SoTR uptime should be better but instinct tells me it should.

    I convinced them to let me solo tank the fight. We did last week and almost killed it on our first attempt. It was late so we didn't get to put many attempts in. This week, I again convinced them that solo tanking is more beneficial. Again, we were frequently hitting the execute phase but it seemed that on each of our attempts someone had a fail moment which eventually caused a wipe.

    The complaining about going two tanking was loud enough that I caved in out of frustration. It took a few more attempts but we finally got the kill. Looking at the meters afterwards I noticed that I was doing 30k less dps and my OT was doing about the same amount of dps as he was in his dps spec so it appeared to not really be beneficial to two tank the boss. The overall damage taken by both tanks was similar if not more than me tanking solo.

    What can you see wrong by my logs.

    Not a kill but was our best attempt while I was solo tanking.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=9194&e=9679

    Durumu kill
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...=12926&e=13507

    Feel free to look at the other logs that night or of our earlier kills on May 1st.
    I think your SS and SoTR uptimes are okay. Taking a look at our Durumu kill from last week, my uptimes were roughly 80% on SS and 50% on SoTR (although to be fair, I'm still working on trying to maximize uptimes).

    I'm not the best at reading WoL's, but the major thing I noticed was your raid's overall DPS was considerably lower than ours. Our average dps is roughly 110-115k on this boss (with the 2nd tank pulling ~80k in his dps spec). You noted that your guild is a pretty casual guild, so I'm not sure where your ilevel is at, but an 8 minute attempt seems pretty long. Our last kill took roughly 5:30 and we used 1 tank and 2 healers.

    Your healers seem pretty solid, so I would try 2-healing to get more dps on the adds during the color blind phase. It seems that you guys took a lot of raid-wide damage, which I assume is coming from colorblind phases taking long. I also noticed you took A LOT more damage from Yellow Eye than I did (16.6% of damage taken vs 4.6%). I believe Yellow Eye does nature damage so I usually pop Devotion Aura during Colorblind Phase (DA affects Nature damage, right? D.

  9. #469
    Looks like a lot of the reason you guys are taking so long on it, is your fury warrior is either way below where he should be... or he's dead. Looks like you guys are almost getting to 3 eye beam phases, which is really slow. "The best defense, is a good offense." The more damage your raid does, the faster the boss dies, the less you have to heal.

    There are some things that can be improved on your end, but it looks like the majority of the issues come from your other raid mates. Unless you guys are really undergeared, which it doesn't seem like it, you should be getting him in probably half the time. For us, when we were learning the fight, we did dual tanks. Eventually, I just forced our OT to go to his dps spec and we got the kill in a pull or two. We did more damage as Tank/Dps than 2x Tank.



  10. #470
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    I know that there are some dps issues to clear up and that is something I plan on addressing here soon. I was more or less concerned with my performance and if I was doing what I could to both maximize my performance with the build I have chosen.

    I thought about using HoPur for the dot damage, but looking at it, the damage is so minute it doesn't make sense.

    I also wondered if using Holy Avenger was the best talent for this fight. Maybe Divine Purpose would be better? Not sure since I don't think I have ever used DP as I found it to be to rng for my taste.

    Pauleedot, I agree that I should have used Devo Aura more. Not sure why I neglected that ability.

    I don't think I have any real flaws in my rotation at the same time acknowledging that it isn't perfect nor will it ever. Sometimes I have a propensity to sandbag hopo for timing my SoTR. I have felt this to be a solid practice, but trying to compare myself to other tanks, I notice that I have significantly more gaps in coverage. Not sure which is better. Trying to time it or keeping as much coverage as possible while leaving 2 hopo in the bank for a quick wog if needed.

    Any critiquing is appreciated as I don't ever want to feel like I've reached a ceiling.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    I know that there are some dps issues to clear up and that is something I plan on addressing here soon. I was more or less concerned with my performance and if I was doing what I could to both maximize my performance with the build I have chosen.

    I thought about using HoPur for the dot damage, but looking at it, the damage is so minute it doesn't make sense.

    I also wondered if using Holy Avenger was the best talent for this fight. Maybe Divine Purpose would be better? Not sure since I don't think I have ever used DP as I found it to be to rng for my taste.

    Pauleedot, I agree that I should have used Devo Aura more. Not sure why I neglected that ability.

    I don't think I have any real flaws in my rotation at the same time acknowledging that it isn't perfect nor will it ever. Sometimes I have a propensity to sandbag hopo for timing my SoTR. I have felt this to be a solid practice, but trying to compare myself to other tanks, I notice that I have significantly more gaps in coverage. Not sure which is better. Trying to time it or keeping as much coverage as possible while leaving 2 hopo in the bank for a quick wog if needed.

    Any critiquing is appreciated as I don't ever want to feel like I've reached a ceiling.
    I made the same choices on heroic, but it applies to normal. I was like "hey, a DOT that I can cheese for vengeance! HoPur time!" But no, the damage is so low that it's pretty much worthless. So, you can go with UbS or Clemency. Clemency allows you 2 BoP's, but nothing needs to be Freedom'd (unless ppl stand in lingering gaze), and 1-tanking means that Sac is generally pretty wasted. So, I go with UbS. It gives me 2.5 min bubbles (for clearing each phase) that allows me an "oh-shit" BoP. It also gives me 2 LoH's during the fight, just in case. Most importantly, it gives ~40 sec DivProt; whether you glyph this for normal melee/hard stare damage (I do) or unglyph for solo-soaking color beams (also good idea), it's a ~33% increase in uptime of the ability.

    Also, I take HA for this (and pretty much everything); I pop it at the start with wngs and lust for loldeepz. It will be back up going into the maze phase, but I save it (on heroic) for when the phase ends and we spread out. I stand in a diff quadrant from the raid while they deal with ice walls, and I just keep myself up with wings/HA while they deal with walls/beams and get to me in phase 2. This is repeatable for a 3rd time if needed. DP can be great, or fucking terrible. I prefer reliable, so I stick with HA on pretty much everything (except Tortos).

    Other than that, shoot for 90-95% SS uptime, I'd say that's a good goal. ShotR for me is ~60-63% depending on GC procs, but a lot of that comes with haste too (though HA helps a LOT with on-demand ShotR). More important than uptime for ShotR is EFFECTIVE uptime, as in uptime when tanking. 100% uptime in maze phase is stupid (which is why we don't use HA going into that) as you waste the tank-CD portion of the effect. Oh, and the "mechanics rotation" of the fight is right about 3 mins, so feel free to use Devo aura ~1/2 way into the light phase to help out healers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #472
    I think your warrior needs to consider a name change away from Ineverdie to something else....anything else really. he's a pure liar as it stands now.

    When posting, please try to remain constructive and to contribute to the topic of the thread. - Malthanis
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-05-06 at 07:33 PM.

  13. #473
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    Yeah, getting into the 90%+ range of SS has been trying for me. I try to only refresh if I'm encroaching on the last bubble. There are a few times when everything is on CD when it would make sense, but the more haste I stack the less that comes up. How often do you refresh your SS and do you push off using a hopo generator to refresh SS? Thanks for the replies.
    Last edited by Scinder; 2013-05-06 at 07:32 PM.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    Yeah, getting into the 90%+ range of SS has been trying for me. I try to only refresh if I'm encroaching on the last bubble. There are a few times when everything is on CD when it would make sense, but the more haste I stack the less that comes up. How often do you refresh your SS and do you push off using a hopo generator to refresh SS? Thanks for the replies.
    I refresh under the following conditions, in this order:
    1) Less than 4 sec on the buff (my ticks are every ~3.5 sec raid buffed)
    2) High vengeance (just took a huge hit, or have been getting my shit kicked for a minute now)
    3) Trinket proc(s) (using JiKun feather/Spark; I try to time refreshes with the above 2 rules AND to coincide with 8-10 stacks of Feather and/or Troll buff)
    4) Nothing else to do (this is rare)

    I won't clip a HoPo generator, but I will clip a consecrate if single target (but never HW) or HW if multi target (but never cons). If I have 3+ things, I'll never clip cons, and if I'm ST I'll never clip HW as it's just too much damage...hope that makes sense. Never clip AS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Also, I take HA for this (and pretty much everything)
    You know I love you, but sometimes I kinda wish you were adopted.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #476
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    snipped
    Another thing that can help you guys alot is handling the life-drain better.

    Our Kill - 2 Heal 1 Tank - 4:12 - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6041&e=6294
    Your Kill - 3 Heal 2 Tanks - 9:40 - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...=12926&e=13507

    269 Mio HP vs. 348 Mio HP // That's 79 Million HP more - about 30% more than base HP.

    So you guys have to kill the boss with 130% instead of 100% HP. (well, 100% is not ever going to be achieved - but like 110% is possible)


    ----


    I have a couple of followup questions to my post 2 pages back.

    Thanks again for the great replies, esp. Nairobi.

    What's still unclear to me now is - still focused on 10man hc "Progression":

    a) Do you always play with Seal of Insight? Or are there situations where you go for Seal of Truth for DPS.
    Our Holy Pala told me to switch to SoT for 3-healing encounters and only use SoI for 2-healing fights.

    b) Battle Healer. From what I gathered (and judging from the overhealing in my logs), it's not a smart heal. I had like 70% overheal when I looked.
    What I'm still unclear on is - does the Healing increase with Damage or with AP? Is my rotation/dps output/weapon affecting the healing or is it purely AP based?
    Judging from the tooltip I would say AP based - but I still wanted to make sure.

    c) Do you rather go with the 2x BoP etc. talent or with the "reduce cd up to 50%" talent (sorry forgot the names). Strictly speaking from a solo tanking perspective (usage on myself).
    Which one is stronger when you don't use HoPu? Or doesn't it matter?

    d) Finally got some new logs and an Itemlevel of 511 now with my Prot. Sitting at 11.5k Haste atm.

    Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2985&e=3371

    Is there anything to improve judging from my logs above?

    Also, first time tanking Tortos HC (not solo) with my Pally. Only used to tank it with my DK thus far.

    Numbers from Tortos: 93.5% Crystal Shell, 85.9% Sacred Shield, 55.6% SotR
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-05-07 at 08:55 AM.

  17. #477
    a) Always* SOI. SOT is ~4k DPS with raid levels of vengeance, SOI is ~40k HPS with that same level of vengeance. Your HPal is wrong, you can tell him I (and the rest of the internet) said so. The global CD lost to swap from SOI to SOT (and then back) is probably more damage than SOT is.

    b) It IS a "smart" heal, but it has no preference for players over pets/minions. You'll see a lot of heals on voodoo gnomes, ghost iron dragons, and hunter pets. If everything is topped off, it still heals (hence the massive overheal).

    c) That tier of talents is extremely situational. I use HoPur on a few fights to mitigate high DOT effects (like Iron Qon impales, JiKun stacks/puddles). I use Clemency on some fights that require raid assistance (like HC Council for Sac's on Frostbite). I use UbS probably the most often, just for the extra uptime on DivProt, and the shorter CD on bubble/LOH. You shouldn't just "pick one and stick with it" for really any talent. All of our talents have their niche's and thats awesome!

    d) At work, and kinda busy so I cant go over logs. But SS uptime could be better. ShotR time looks good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #478
    There have been a few times where I'll switch to SoT just for the extra dps increase, but it's usually on farm content.



  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    There have been a few times where I'll switch to SoT just for the extra dps increase, but it's usually on farm content.
    That's why I put the * by it, since I knew someone would say "farm content".

    I guess my thoughts are this: you have 2 options for pushing DPS. 1) You can swap to SOT for a bit more DPS. Certainly more DPS than SOI gives. or 2) you can keep up SOI and find ways to abuse vengeance but remain alive thanks to the sel-heal component.

    I subscribe to option 2, as it seems to work better overall for me than option 1. But both will in fact provide DPS.

    Other times to use SOT over SOI is if your healers want to rank
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #480
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    Much appreciated everyone that replied.

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