1. #761
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    Hello, I’m rerolling Prot Paladin from my Prot Warrior. We’re a semi-casual 10m core, progressing heroics (1/13h ATM).

    Here’s my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Lies/advanced
    Sitting at 5827 Haste Rating (13.71%) with 7.5% hit / 15% expertise.

    Saw this some pages ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It looks like you're doing normal modes, (…)

    You can shoot for 15% exp if you want, but at your gear level and content level, you're likely fine just sitting at soft cap. (...)
    I’m kinda addicted to the “big DPS” part of tanking, without Vengeance abusing (/sit and fire-related stuff).

    You guys think that going 7.5% expertise and getting like 2k+ haste would boost my survival/dps a bit?

    Another question, with my actual gear and haste levels, what % uptime on SotR would be “ok” for a tank’n’spank fight (like primordius @ center without oozes)?
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  2. #762
    You could probably drop to ~7.5-10% expertise and pick up some haste until you get the ilvl to sit at cap. I'm sure you know that a lot of your gear choices (legs, belt, helm, etc.) are not ideal, and are just stuck with them, but dropping some of the expertise reforging will allow you to pick up some haste since you're so low natively.

    Seems your reforge/gem priority is decent, so I won't preach about what to seek/do, just hope you get lucky!

    I'd say on a fight like Tortos/Durumu/Primo-cheese, you should see ~60%+ uptime on ShotR. Your haste is pretty low, but given a decent rotation (and depending on your t75 talent choice), that'd be a good goal. On that note, I'd suggest running with HA (like you have currently), since your # of ShotR casts will be a bit low until you get more haste.

    All in all, looks good. Best of luck in progression and in getting some more ideal gear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  3. #763
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    Okie thanks

    About my gear, yeah, just started ToT on him last week, so I'm still hoping for some luck (was rocking some LFR 476 pieces with haste, but the stam/str upgade was simply tooo good to pass up)

    Now a maybe-not-so-small question about Prot tanking, concerning ShotR vs WoG. I kinda like to "help" my healers the best I can, so that's it --> lets see and example: on Durumu's Hard Stare, what would be more effective, to help the healers? 1- ShotR right before (with 5 HoPo) then another ShotR for the next 1-2 swings. 2- ShotR right before (again with 5 HoPo) then WoG myself and "eat the next full hits". I'm pretty sure the 1st option would be the best, but the "omg i should heal myself and help them drop the bleed" feeling is still here. BTW, sorry if it's already been covered somewhere.
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  4. #764
    Depends on your current HP, # of stacks, healer awareness, healer comp, phase of fight, etc. Basically... we can't tell you.

    Things to consider:
    1) the stacks reduce healing taken. If you have 6-8 stacks, a 5 BOG WOG is going to be pretty weak. At that point, its likely better to just ShotR. Or bubble/BoP, then heal.
    2) Are you going into a hard stare topped off? If so, a ShotR will cut it down to almost nothing (with a sacred shield up) on 10N. Also, Disc bubble makes it basically a non-issue.
    3) If you ARE low, don't panic. The DOT is weak as hell, ticks for ~8k per stack on heroic IIRC, so nothing to flip out about. Just recover as normal.
    4) If you're low or have high stacks, just walk out of your beam for a moment to let healers catch up before resuming soaking (on heroic anyway, not sure if it's needed on N)

    Basically, Durumu is both a good and a terrible example for your question, due to the MS effect in play. Times that I use WOG are basically 1) magic damage nukes, or 2) OHSHIT need to be topped NAO. But, for reference, I usually WOG ~1-3x per fight.

    FWIW, a well timed Holy Prism/Lights Hammer is MORE than enough help to healers. Adding in your passive self-healing/absorbs really lets them "babysit" the raid, as you're likely pretty self sufficient. I think I'm usually ~75%+ of my total healing taken, which means our healers can spend time on the raid and/or Smiting/Fistweaving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #765
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    Thanks again sir.
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Times that I use WOG are basically 1) magic damage nukes, or 2) OHSHIT need to be topped NAO. But, for reference, I usually WOG ~1-3x per fight.
    Mine are usually when I fat-finger another button, occasionally the magic nuke.



  7. #767
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    Nairobi - you WOG a hell of a lot more then me
    Keeping it url since 1864.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Nairobi - you WOG a hell of a lot more then me
    I basically only use it when I have to be 100% self sufficient. Top of my head:
    1) Once at the start of HC tortos to get my shield maxed. But never again.
    2) HC Meg when I'm solo on green and rest of raid is on purple. (so, twice maybe?)
    3) HC Durumu once or twice (after taking a 7/8/9th stack, then bubbling, ofc) if needed
    4) HC Lei Shen when soloing a quadrant for topping off after Helm, bouncing bolts, or having an add.

    So, 4 fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Snip
    Yeah, no. For survivability stamina is king. Until you prove that you're better than Sacredduty at theorycrafting I call bullshit.

    Ofcourse Hit > Expertise > Sta > Haste > Mastery.

    Seriously, 'stamina bandwagonning' is there for a reason. Although on 10man there is no real need to go for stamina. Ever.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Yeah, no. For survivability stamina is king. Until you prove that you're better than Sacredduty at theorycrafting I call bullshit.

    Ofcourse Hit > Expertise > Sta > Haste > Mastery.

    Seriously, 'stamina bandwagonning' is there for a reason. Although on 10man there is no real need to go for stamina. Ever.
    First you attack him and then admit that there's no reason to go for stamina on 10m? °_°
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  11. #771
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    Honestly, FF is always wrong. Except when he makes a good point.
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  12. #772
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    First you attack him and then admit that there's no reason to go for stamina on 10m? °_°
    There is no reason to go for stamina in 10 mans. But that doesn't change the fact that stamina is the best survival stat???

  13. #773
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Yeah, no. For survivability stamina is king. Until you prove that you're better than Sacredduty at theorycrafting I call bullshit.

    Ofcourse Hit > Expertise > Sta > Haste > Mastery.

    Seriously, 'stamina bandwagonning' is there for a reason. Although on 10man there is no real need to go for stamina. Ever.
    I'm running 25H and I had no real need to gem stamina or use stamina trinkets. I'm using 1 jc stam gem and that's all. Everything else is haste/exp.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I'm running 25H and I had no real need to gem stamina or use stamina trinkets. I'm using 1 jc stam gem and that's all. Everything else is haste/exp.
    Why are you even using a jc stam gem ? °_°

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 10:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    There is no reason to go for stamina in 10 mans. But that doesn't change the fact that stamina is the best survival stat???
    It's the top priority stat ..... until you hit a certain level where it loses most of it's value being only a buffer.
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  15. #775
    Kinda. With my actually-not-even-high item level of 531, I have more than enough stamina for this tier. It was a tiny bit different in the first few weeks, but by now I question the need for the few stam-enchants I still have. As a matter of a fact, I only keep them, because I do think some ppl would find it ridiculous, that I tank with DPS enchants... o_O
    As for 25mans, the bosses hit ~20-25% harder, so a higher EH is always good thing there, but after a certain ilvl, it is kind of a waste imo.

    Maybe Ra-Den will change my mind, but I have few weeks till that.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Yeah, no. For survivability stamina is king. Until you prove that you're better than Sacredduty at theorycrafting I call bullshit.

    Ofcourse Hit > Expertise > Sta > Haste > Mastery.

    Seriously, 'stamina bandwagonning' is there for a reason. Although on 10man there is no real need to go for stamina. Ever.
    STAMINA IS #1 ALWAYS YOU FOOLS! Errr...unless you don't need it.

    It's been discussed over and over, that Theck does wonderful work on the math front when looking at stochastic damage measurements, but that he cannot translate those findings to "real life" scenarios (yet, anyway...he's trying a new thing with SimC that may change that). Please don't blindly follow Theck, or any other TC'er/blog/whatever. And if you do, PLEASE don't give that advice as gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    First you attack him and then admit that there's no reason to go for stamina on 10m? °_°
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Honestly, FF is always wrong. Except when he makes a good point.
    I always miss the funny posts when we're raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    There is no reason to go for stamina in 10 mans. But that doesn't change the fact that stamina is the best survival stat???
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    It's the top priority stat ..... until you hit a certain level where it loses most of it's value being only a buffer.
    Putting these side by side because, even though it's been said over and over, the best way to describe stamina is STILL:
    It's our best survival stat until you have "enough". "Enough" means something different to each player, depending on class, fight, comp, healers, skill, and gear. That's why there is not a "set amount" or "cap", and anyone who tells you that there is, is wrong. After you reach that stamina breakpoint, additional points are ALWAYS better used in other stats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #777
    Blademaster LuisKA's Avatar
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    Hello! 25h Prot paladin here.

    I have a question about Dark Animus Heroic. I have found almost mandatory to run a full stam set (800k+ unbuffed) set to not get in real danger/be insta gibbed by Massives by the second half of the fight. Whenever I tried in my standard build (the one that shows in my armory atm) I die a lot to smashes.

    Our strat involves me and a warrior co-tank switching both adds, taking 3-4 smash debuffs. I run unglyph dp and holy avenger. Even with double CD up for debuffs 3 and 4 it feels I just cant avoid death by the end of the fight with my haste set.

    Would be really helpful if more experienced tanks could give me some tips on how to handle this fight without the need of an outrageous stamina build.

    Thanks in advance! Armory is Tracey , EU-C,thun (cannot post links)

  18. #778
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Why are you even using a jc stam gem ? °_°
    Because haste gems are underbudget (they only give 1.5x of stat instead of 2x) and there's a decent bonus on blue socket on my shoulders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisKA View Post
    Hello! 25h Prot paladin here.

    I have a question about Dark Animus Heroic. I have found almost mandatory to run a full stam set (800k+ unbuffed) set to not get in real danger/be insta gibbed by Massives by the second half of the fight. Whenever I tried in my standard build (the one that shows in my armory atm) I die a lot to smashes.

    Our strat involves me and a warrior co-tank switching both adds, taking 3-4 smash debuffs. I run unglyph dp and holy avenger. Even with double CD up for debuffs 3 and 4 it feels I just cant avoid death by the end of the fight with my haste set.

    Would be really helpful if more experienced tanks could give me some tips on how to handle this fight without the need of an outrageous stamina build.

    Thanks in advance! Armory is Tracey , EU-C,thun (cannot post links)
    We're not on heroic yet but what we do is to have our DK and druid tanks manage Massive Golems while I tank the boss. Works wonderfully, I'm never in danger of getting gibbed, and neither are them.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by LuisKA View Post
    Hello! 25h Prot paladin here.

    I have a question about Dark Animus Heroic. I have found almost mandatory to run a full stam set (800k+ unbuffed) set to not get in real danger/be insta gibbed by Massives by the second half of the fight. Whenever I tried in my standard build (the one that shows in my armory atm) I die a lot to smashes.

    Our strat involves me and a warrior co-tank switching both adds, taking 3-4 smash debuffs. I run unglyph dp and holy avenger. Even with double CD up for debuffs 3 and 4 it feels I just cant avoid death by the end of the fight with my haste set.

    Would be really helpful if more experienced tanks could give me some tips on how to handle this fight without the need of an outrageous stamina build.

    Thanks in advance! Armory is Tracey , EU-C,thun (cannot post links)
    Since I raid 10's I can't give any tips necessarily for 25 specific, but I suppose the damage must just be insanely higher. I run stacks up to 7+ in 10, for example, with ~750khp, so not stam-stacking. We 3-tank, and have myself and another protpal ping-pong the adds to clear, usually every 4ish stacks (but sometimes higher).

    At any rate...make sure that you keep 1 small golem alive (and on the MT, ideally) for as long as possible. This golem will act as an "empowerment soaker" so that your massives are not getting retard-stronk too early. Once they get stack(s) of the buff, they WILL start to hurt, so keeping up the small golem is a great way to bait empowers away from the massives. It'll likely die around the time of your jolts, but it will give you time to save CDs. Also, dont be afraid to use bubble to clear the stacks if needed (can do it twice inthe fight with HA).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    Because haste gems are underbudget (they only give 1.5x of stat instead of 2x) and there's a decent bonus on blue socket on my shoulders.
    Aren't there new "hybrid" JC gems, or am I making that up? I dropped JC this expac due to the secondary stats getting screwed, but I seem to recall hybrids being added.

    We're not on heroic yet but what we do is to have our DK and druid tanks manage Massive Golems while I tank the boss. Works wonderfully, I'm never in danger of getting gibbed, and neither are them.
    To be fair, normal and heroic are entirely different ballgames.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #780
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Aren't there new "hybrid" JC gems, or am I making that up? I dropped JC this expac due to the secondary stats getting screwed, but I seem to recall hybrids being added.
    That's pvp only. There are hybrid pvp power/resilience + main stat gems. Pve ones are just one-color with 320 stats for agi/int/str, 480 stamina and 480 for secondaries (instead of 640).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 06:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    To be fair, normal and heroic are entirely different ballgames.
    Yeah, I know. But looking at videos and tactics, they don't seem to be that much more different from normal mode except for tighter dps requirements, higher damage of mobs and somewhat different order of add handling.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

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