1. #861
    I don't exactly know if maxing prot dps really belongs in "fix my tanking" but i feel like its the best bet overall. I really want to know what I'm doing wrong in regards to prot dps, i pull around 100k-110k on average throughout most boss fights, keep in mind this is an average and doesn't reflect bosses such as HC horridon or what have you. Furthermore, I don't normally get to single tank fights that i know I can (Durumu, Tortos, even Primordius) < referring to normal modes here, we are currently 2/13. So i understand i won't ever skyrocket to ranking levels. However im sitting at nearly 36% haste (35.88%) and feel like i could push out more dps. I'd provide logs, but i don't have any handy.

    Throw me typical reasons why my dps would be lackluster, also.. CS>J>X were X is filler, but which filler has the highest priority?

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  2. #862
    Not sure if you didn't just finish your rotational syntax there, but the complete one is CS J X CS X J CS X X. Not just CS J X repeat.

    GC-AS > HW > AS > Cons > HoW for fillers in terms of Dmg. t90 choice can/should be worked in as well, HPr hits like a truck. Since you're still progressing, I'd not recommend ES (I don't really EVER recommend it unless to specifically rank, not just improve).

    Glyphing plays a big role too. Minor Glyph - Focused Wrath is a great way to boost your effective DPS (even tho total damage is same). Focused shield #1 for ST fights, Alab for MT/fast hitters.

    The biggest thing, really, is vengeance. Seriously. Not solo-tanking means you're never going to pull great numbers. Effecting use/abuse of our plethora of mitigation abilities is the only real way to get "impressive" dps. Solo-tanking last part of Horridon+Jalak, bubbling off the debuff on JinRohk to keep aggro, solo tanking Tortos (or at least cleaving bats), abusing pools and AD'ing a talon rake on JiKun, solo tank Durumu, grab as many adds as you can survive on Animus, solo tank Qon, 95% solo tank Twins, 95% solo tank LS, don't die on RaDen etc.

    All of those fights have ways to get us very respectable parses, but they ALL involve "creative" ways to ramp up (and keep up) vengeance.
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  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not sure if you didn't just finish your rotational syntax there, but the complete one is CS J X CS X J CS X X. Not just CS J X repeat.

    GC-AS > HW > AS > Cons > HoW for fillers in terms of Dmg. t90 choice can/should be worked in as well, HPr hits like a truck. Since you're still progressing, I'd not recommend ES (I don't really EVER recommend it unless to specifically rank, not just improve).

    Glyphing plays a big role too. Minor Glyph - Focused Wrath is a great way to boost your effective DPS (even tho total damage is same). Focused shield #1 for ST fights, Alab for MT/fast hitters.

    The biggest thing, really, is vengeance. Seriously. Not solo-tanking means you're never going to pull great numbers. Effecting use/abuse of our plethora of mitigation abilities is the only real way to get "impressive" dps. Solo-tanking last part of Horridon+Jalak, bubbling off the debuff on JinRohk to keep aggro, solo tanking Tortos (or at least cleaving bats), abusing pools and AD'ing a talon rake on JiKun, solo tank Durumu, grab as many adds as you can survive on Animus, solo tank Qon, 95% solo tank Twins, 95% solo tank LS, don't die on RaDen etc.

    All of those fights have ways to get us very respectable parses, but they ALL involve "creative" ways to ramp up (and keep up) vengeance.
    Noticing your major glyph recommendations (switching for fights, is it primarly alabaster sheild that i switch out or do i just forsake battlehealer?)

    Judging by the fact that i will mostly be two tanking fights, i guess FS is the way to go. I still wonder about the value of battlehealer in any case, as i've heard alot of Prot-pals here say its value is often overestimated.
    Last edited by Cheekun; 2013-07-11 at 07:40 PM.
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  4. #864
    I found final wrath to be extremely valuable for ranks.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #865
    25 you can skip BH usually.

    10s is more personal. I usually keep BH in (though I don't really care about ranks), and float between FS, Alab, DivProt, and Final Wrath. If it's a high magic, multi-target fight (like HC Council) I opt for Alab and FW. If it's high magic, ST fight (like HC Meg) I'll use FS over Alab. Alab will get further devalued next patch.

    I use HolyWrath glyph on LS for balls.
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  6. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    GC-AS > HW > AS > Cons > HoW for fillers in terms of Dmg.
    Are you sure about HW > AS? As far as I can see AS does more damage than HW, apart from sub 20% with final wrath glyph.

  7. #867
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    For Glyphs (10M here, still normal mode) I tend to keep BH all the time just because it helps out with healing the raid, and usually run Final Wrath + Focused Shield usually (except on like Horridon), with typically replacing Final Wrath for Divine Protection on fights that aren't all magic damage. For the Level 90 ability though, I almost always take Light's Hammer. I haven't found Prism to be that useful, and ES I'd probably forget about.
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  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by Seahenar View Post
    Are you sure about HW > AS? As far as I can see AS does more damage than HW, apart from sub 20% with final wrath glyph.
    HW is a higher DPET than AS on single target 100%. On MT fights it's less, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    For Glyphs (10M here, still normal mode) I tend to keep BH all the time just because it helps out with healing the raid, and usually run Final Wrath + Focused Shield usually (except on like Horridon), with typically replacing Final Wrath for Divine Protection on fights that aren't all magic damage. For the Level 90 ability though, I almost always take Light's Hammer. I haven't found Prism to be that useful, and ES I'd probably forget about.
    Why would you NOT FS on Horridon?? You should be on him 100%, meaning FS is best DPS contribution. FW is a good contender, considering the final phase, but I usually use DivProt just for a meaningful CD every 30-35sec with UbS.

    LH is really subpar to Prism on nearly every fight minus:
    HC Council - for the cleaving and for the healing on Kazra
    Tortos - cleaving and for slow on turtles
    Meg - purely for the heal

    Every other fight, HPr is more dmg (and heal) per sec, assuming a non-stupid use of the ability. It also scales it's GCD with haste (unlike LH), is dynamic/moves with the boss (unlike LH) and is burst vs slow-tick.
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  9. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    HW is a higher DPET than AS on single target 100%. On MT fights it's less, obviously.
    Unless I'm missing something, they both have the same execute time - 1 GCD. And AS does more damage than HW, even unglyphed against 1 target - if you don't believe me just look through some logs, either at average damage or through the expression editor and pick casts that are preferably 1 GCD apart to prevent a large difference in vengeance. Theck's matlab thread on maintankadin also supports this.
    Just looking at the two known formulas for the spells as well at maintankadin, with identical AP it's not mathematically possible for HW to do more damage.
    Last edited by Seahenar; 2013-07-12 at 03:41 AM.

  10. #870
    DPET considers the cooldown, meaning that delaying a HW cast for an AS cast will net you less overall damage over the course of the fight. Prioritizing AS will give you a bit more damage on the cast, but will push back HW, lowering overall damage.
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  11. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    DPET considers the cooldown, meaning that delaying a HW cast for an AS cast will net you less overall damage over the course of the fight. Prioritizing AS will give you a bit more damage on the cast, but will push back HW, lowering overall damage.
    I guess that makes sense, although I've never heard of DPET considering cooldown, only ever cast time - I'm assuming it's lower overall due to losing more HWs by doing AS > HW than you would lose AS by doing HW > AS then? How are you calculating DPET with this meaning btw, is it simply damage/cooldown or is it more complicated than that?
    How does DPET work out with GC though? In particular, would it not make the DPET vary based on the current point in the rotation? For example, with CS > J > X1 > CS > X2 > J > CS > X3 > X4, would an AS at X4 not have a higher DPET than one at say X2 or X3, due to the next CS casts coming sooner lowering the effective CD.

  12. #872
    Hello
    My first post here.
    Could You guys/galls take a look at my armory: Toore Defias Brotherhood EU (can't place link - to little posts)
    and tell me should I drop some stam for haste? I can go for 15,72% (6679 rating) from my 7,75% (3294 rating) by sacrificing 3725 stam (from 43496 now to 39771). Is it worth to do so?
    How much should I edit weights for stam/haste (after reaching hit/exp caps)?
    Thx in advance!

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Toore View Post
    Hello
    Could You guys/galls take a look at my armory:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Toore/advanced
    Thx in advance!
    Phew you pretty much need to change all your gear.
    Wrong choices on a lot of item slots (tier chest, cloak, neck, ...)
    All those stamina gems/enchants are unneeded since you don't seem to be doing 25H. (and even there you shouldn't need them)
    Wrong meta gem.

    Seriously you have 3k haste even though you should have more like 13k.
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  14. #874
    Regarding to item choices I know i have them bad - gonna change tier item to smth else as soon as I can, also I'm getting valor to change wrists and neck - bought them long ago before i found out about haste biuld (been stacking mastery then, ignoring haste - since I've changed things got better).
    So You suggest to drop stam gems for haste is it?

  15. #875
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Why would you NOT FS on Horridon?? You should be on him 100%, meaning FS is best DPS contribution. FW is a good contender, considering the final phase, but I usually use DivProt just for a meaningful CD every 30-35sec with UbS.
    I don't solo tank Horridon, so I don't use FS since hitting 3 targets helps me to hold aggro when I'm on adds.

    Didn't know that about Prism, I'll have to switch that up more often then. I only tend to use LH at certain times anyways e.g. Jin'rokh during storm, Horridon for adds, Tortos for cleaving, Meg for Rampages.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toore View Post
    So You suggest to drop stam gems for haste is it?
    Pretty much. You don't need to stam stack unless you're doing 25H (and even then). Sites like Ask Mr. Robot tend to prioritize Stamina unless you specifically say to treat Stamina low. I personally still use Haste+Stam gems in blue sockets just for a little bit of extra health, but otherwise I use pure haste in Yellow/Prismatic and sockets where I don't care about the bonus, and Expertise+Haste in red, so I can reforge out of Expertise and into more Haste. Even with the nerfs/changes coming in 5.4 I don't think that will change much, if at all.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-07-12 at 10:52 AM.
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  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Seahenar View Post
    I guess that makes sense, although I've never heard of DPET considering cooldown, only ever cast time - I'm assuming it's lower overall due to losing more HWs by doing AS > HW than you would lose AS by doing HW > AS then? How are you calculating DPET with this meaning btw, is it simply damage/cooldown or is it more complicated than that?
    How does DPET work out with GC though? In particular, would it not make the DPET vary based on the current point in the rotation? For example, with CS > J > X1 > CS > X2 > J > CS > X3 > X4, would an AS at X4 not have a higher DPET than one at say X2 or X3, due to the next CS casts coming sooner lowering the effective CD.
    Perhaps DPET is the wrong verbage there, I suppose DPOC (dmg per opportunity cost) would be better? DPCD? I dunno, I wrote that last night after getting in from the bar after kickball, so was a bit lit. Anywho, my point was that AS damage is higher, but CD is commensurately longer (GC notwithstanding), so prioritizing it over HW will mean pushing HW back in our queue of fillers. Not unlike CS vs J in both cooldown and damage ratios, if you think about it. This means we're going to, over the course of the fight, lose out on a handful of HW casts, which can be a net loss in damage (depending on fight length and other factors). Obviously, trying to napkin math GC procs makes this more messy, but I hope that clarifies what I was saying.

    BUT - it's important to note that it's wise to give preference to AS in the X1 and X4 positions (as you mentioned) given that CS is following. This won't matter next patch, but it's a very good way to eek out a few extra GCs now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I don't solo tank Horridon, so I don't use FS since hitting 3 targets helps me to hold aggro when I'm on adds.

    Didn't know that about Prism, I'll have to switch that up more often then. I only tend to use LH at certain times anyways e.g. Jin'rokh during storm, Horridon for adds, Tortos for cleaving, Meg for Rampages.
    You don't sit on Horridon? Do you run 2x pally tank or something?

    And yeah, I can see how LH would be useful on JinRohk for storms. I kinda glossed over that, as we've just been killing him before he casts it recently lul. #bruteforce
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  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I don't solo tank Horridon, so I don't use FS since hitting 3 targets helps me to hold aggro when I'm on adds.
    Is there a reason you don't stick on the boss the entire time? (not sarcasm, legitimate curiosity)

    Between ShoR and external CDs (if needed), it makes it much easier for everyone to just have a pally camp on Horridon the entire fight. I generally sit at ~120k vengeance during the doors and do significant damage to Horridon (on heroic anyway), which makes it easier to burn him down that last phase. It also allows our DK tank to just run between the doors reducing any confusion that might happen via tank swaps.
    Last edited by pld; 2013-07-12 at 01:21 PM.

  18. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Is there a reason you don't stick on the boss the entire time? (not sarcasm, legitimate curiosity)

    Between ShoR and external CDs (if needed), it makes it much easier for everyone to just have a pally camp on Horridon the entire fight. I generally sit at ~120k vengeance during the doors and do significant damage to Horridon (on heroic anyway), which makes it easier to burn him down that last phase. It also allows our DK tank to just run between the doors reducing any confusion that might happen via tank swaps.
    The raid leader doesn't want to do the fight that way, that's the only reason I'm aware of (also my healers are a bit sketchy sometimes, and it's not uncommon for me to die on Horridon if I'm tanking him when he gets the damage buff after War God is killed). We run me (Pally) and him (Druid) as our tanks. I might have to ask if I can sit on Horridon the whole fight this week just to see how it works; I'm guessing it goes something like this: I take Clemency, 1st door Divine Shield, 2nd BoP #1, 3rd BoP #2, 4th Divine Shield? We probably will have a Holy Pally so worse comes to worse he could BoP me as well.

    Let's see... Jin'rokh we swap after Static Wound, Horridon we swap after doors, Council we swap for Frigid Assault (which hurts, since he sometimes forgets to taunt Mar'li when I'm eating Frigid with the answer of "I can tank Sul and Malak, why can't you tank Mar'li and Malak"), Tortos I'm on boss and he's on adds, Meg I'm on Blue/Red (using Green-Red strategy), Ji-kun we swap 2x Talon Rakes, and that's as far as we've gotten as we haven't downed Ji-kun yet.
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  19. #879
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    The raid leader doesn't want to do the fight that way, that's the only reason I'm aware of (also my healers are a bit sketchy sometimes, and it's not uncommon for me to die on Horridon if I'm tanking him when he gets the damage buff after War God is killed). We run me (Pally) and him (Druid) as our tanks. I might have to ask if I can sit on Horridon the whole fight this week just to see how it works; I'm guessing it goes something like this: I take Clemency, 1st door Divine Shield, 2nd BoP #1, 3rd BoP #2, 4th Divine Shield? We probably will have a Holy Pally so worse comes to worse he could BoP me as well.

    We don't solo tank any fight. Jin'rokh we swap after Static Wound, Horridon we swap after doors, Council we swap for Frigid Assault (which hurts, since he sometimes forgets to taunt Mar'li when I'm eating Frigid with the answer of "I can tank Sul and Malak, why can't you tank Mar'li and Malak"), Tortos I'm on boss and he's on adds, Meg I'm on Blue/Red (using Green-Red strategy), Ji-kun we swap 2x Talon Rakes, and that's as far as we've gotten as we haven't downed Ji-kun yet.
    hmmm well dont need clemency just bubble off midway through second gate, midway through 4th gate and then when war-god is dead

    solo tanking council and tortos as a pally really is a huge benefit to the raid btw if you're struggling. .Just need to get your rotation down properly and use your cds right. Try it, you may be surprised.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2013-07-12 at 01:47 PM.
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  20. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    The raid leader doesn't want to do the fight that way, that's the only reason I'm aware of (also my healers are a bit sketchy sometimes, and it's not uncommon for me to die on Horridon if I'm tanking him when he gets the damage buff after War God is killed). We run me (Pally) and him (Druid) as our tanks. I might have to ask if I can sit on Horridon the whole fight this week just to see how it works; I'm guessing it goes something like this: I take Clemency, 1st door Divine Shield, 2nd BoP #1, 3rd BoP #2, 4th Divine Shield? We probably will have a Holy Pally so worse comes to worse he could BoP me as well.

    Let's see... Jin'rokh we swap after Static Wound, Horridon we swap after doors, Council we swap for Frigid Assault (which hurts, since he sometimes forgets to taunt Mar'li when I'm eating Frigid with the answer of "I can tank Sul and Malak, why can't you tank Mar'li and Malak"), Tortos I'm on boss and he's on adds, Meg I'm on Blue/Red (using Green-Red strategy), Ji-kun we swap 2x Talon Rakes, and that's as far as we've gotten as we haven't downed Ji-kun yet.
    The only fights where I would personally advocate using 1 pala tank are Durumu and Iron Qon. Well, and maybe Tortos. Rest of the fights are just too hectic/spiky. At least in 25H.
    As for Horridon, we have me sitting on the boss until about 5 seconds before Jalak comes, then our DK takes the boss, I take Jalak, we burn Jalak down, I wait out my stacks (while DK and Druid both get ~4 stacks each), and taunt the boss after next Dire Call that hits. I wish they let me tank the boss whole time, but RL wants to be safe there :P
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