1. #921
    All of the advice I have seen here has been solid. The only other thing I would add is how to deal with swaps. Even well geared tanks can get ripped off of if the original tank has full stacks of vengeance, especially if they are using DPS trinkets that have proc'd at the time of the swap. Using Hand of Salvation on the other tank is a great way to give you a chance to grab aggro and build up a little vengeance while the other tanks vengeance is wearing off and can really smooth out tank swaps. I personally use a hand of salv mouse over macro for this.

    Another thing you can do is use an offensive CD like Avenging Wrath or Holy Avenger to increase your threat when you are taking the boss. Obviously you don't want to waste this CD so make sure you know the fight and map out the fight and only use it if you know that it will be back up for a burn phase.

  2. #922
    After taunting off a full-vengeance tank, it can be hard to maintain aggro. Come patch time, this shouldn't be a problem anymore as during the duration of taunt, threat output is increased by 200% (this is roughly what I heard, don't take my word for it). Other things that may help your problem can be to activate Holy Avenger + wings for some nice snap threat. I've also heard BrM Monks sitting down while taunting to get a nice whack of vengeance. Do BrM still do this? Can Prot Pallies apply this? Or is it too risky?

  3. #923
    Sit-crit is nerfed in 5.4 to give no extra veng, so it's basically pointless.

    It does still work on live.
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  4. #924
    I cant really add much more about the threat building and overaggro since pretty much everything have been covered. What i do like to add tho is that you both should be getting the Glyph of Battle Healer, Helps healing alot and threatbuilding. In my own experience the glyph really helps alot specially if u combine it with lights hammer or holy prism on fights that require aoehealing (such as jin'rohk, megaera etc etc).

  5. #925
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    make sure the other tank doesn't go mental on his damage/threat during tank switches? Both of you are paladins, you can rotate hand of salvation. save 5 holy power for tank switches so you can do burst threat.

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  6. #926

    Need some advice

    Our prot paladin has come back to us after a long hiatus, now I know paladins are usually going for haste but he seems to not be... Is this bad? should we make him go haste paladin tank.

    Heres his armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...AFrst/advanced

    I just want to make sure he's playing the best spec and gemming the best. Tear this toon apart and tell me what needs to be fixed if anything.

  7. #927
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    You should try posting this on the Fix my Tanking! thread. Lots of useful info there as well as experienced people willing to help you.
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  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by kilj View Post
    Our prot paladin has come back to us after a long hiatus, now I know paladins are usually going for haste but he seems to not be... Is this bad? should we make him go haste paladin tank.

    Heres his armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...AFrst/advanced

    I just want to make sure he's playing the best spec and gemming the best. Tear this toon apart and tell me what needs to be fixed if anything.
    Here we go.

    8.4% hit (only needs 7.5%). Short of expertise cap, but this isn't huge. ONE POINT THREE THREE PERCENT HASTE. This comes entirely from his helmet (made the right one, haste/mastery) but he reforged OUT OF HASTE.

    Gemming:
    Tank meta gem. Srsly? Get the DPS one, always.
    LOLstam. Stahp. He's got ELEVEN straight stam gems. As well as 2 Exp/Stam (OK) and 1 Mastery/Stam (lolwut) gems. That's 12x320= 3840 haste right there, about 8x more than he has TOTAL. Have him go straight haste, or at least Exp/Haste and Stam/Haste if he wants to match sockets (though there's not much worth matching for). Only match for good bonuses, which I consider Haste, and sometimes Stam. Personally, I run almost entirely 320 haste.

    Reforges:
    Looks like he's trying to stack mastery for some reason. You said long break, so I'll assume he's still shooting for CTC cap or something. Tell him to stop that. Get hit capped, then 7.5%+ exp, then pile on haste. Mastery that is on gear/from raid buff is PLENTY for normal modes and even heroic modes.

    Gear:
    Tons of bad choices. Bought the wrong valor neck, wrong valor ring, and wrong valor trinket. Some HUGE upgrades there over what he picked.
    SO many DODGE+PARRY gear items, all awful. Boots, bracers, belt all bad. Crafted 522 boots will last til SoO (haste/mastery). Belt off JinRohk, Bracers off of horridon (or get lucky from Jin or Durumu).
    I don't suggest tier gear for 10man, but it you want it, the helm/shoulders are the best pieces. He's missing out on some WAAAY better options (Horridon/Durumu pants, Primo gloves) by using those poorly itemized tier items.
    Stam trinket again (shocker), but it's not terrible. Just not needed. Spark off of Horridon and Feather from JiKun are great, but lots of options there. Valor one (and the Animus one) are the worst options.

    Enchants are odd. Stamina to hands? What is it with this guy, lol. Go haste. Also, colossus on weapon is silly. Windsong if you're cheap, or Dancing Steel.

    Glyphs:
    Avenging wrath? ROFL. Terrible glyph, waste of a slot.
    HotR? wow...another utter waste of a slot.
    No battle healer (how does that happen unless you're 25m on farm?).
    Have him use BH, Alabaster Shield (currently on), and rotate in DivProt, Focused Shield, Final Wrath as the situation is needed.

    Talents:
    ETERNAL FLAME. Holy shit. No sacred shield? The talent that makes up ~50-60% of our self-sustain? This is a HUGE problem.
    Clemency? Hardly ever useful compared to Unbreakable spirit. UbS gives more uptime on DivProt, faster Bubbles AND more LoH's.
    Divine Purpose, while great when running a haste build, is shit when you have less than 2% haste. Consider HA as an extra CD while he is correcting his gear, then revisit DP once he gets ~25%+ haste (IMO)

    That's the quick - n - dirty. I'm sure we could rip apart logs, but frankly, it just wouldn't be fair. Due to his long absence, he is so ill-prepared for how pala-tanking has changed that any conclusions drawn from a log/parse would be unfairly low/bad. Can re-evaluate when he gets proper gear, though I suspect that his rotation, GCD usage and ShotR and SS (once he talents it!) uptimes will all be pretty low since this paradigm takes some getting used to.

    Hope that helps.
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  9. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post

    Reforges:
    Get hit capped, then 7.5%+ exp, then pile on haste.
    When did not going for 15% exp become a thing?

  10. #930
    Thats about what I was looking for.. Thank you

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximinez View Post
    When did not going for 15% exp become a thing?
    Since always. 7.5%+, emphasis on the plus.

    Past 7.5%, expertise only affects HoPo generation from CS/HotR. HoPo from J and GC-AS is capped with Hit. You're far better off gearing for haste after 7.5% expertise while at low to moderate gear levels, in terms of DPS, HPS, APS, TPS, and HoPo gen.

    Once you're around 535+, it's hard to NOT get close to Exp cap passively if you're gearing properly, but trying too hard to cap expertise at low gear levels spreads you too thin (for too little reward) and only hurts you in the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximinez View Post
    When did not going for 15% exp become a thing?
    It has always been a thing. It was just kinda tabu before. As time went on more and more people realised that is was viable, and in the same fashion more and more people realised that in a lot of cases (majority?) it is also superior.

    Nobody is advocating not getting expertise cap (except for CMs maybe), but people are saying hit>haste>exp. Both haste>exp and exp>haste is very viable.

    Though, now come 5.4, having 0 expertise can actually become viable on some fights, a.k.a. fights where you can reach 100% GC uptime through abusing, since quite obviously expertise is completely useless if you are only spamming AS.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #933
    He appears to be going for a stamina/mastery build for whatever reason. If he's tanking normals or 10m heroics (or even 25m heroics really), there's no reason to go for any more stamina than what you natively get on gear. I would strongly strongly recommend he go full haste. He is also significantly over hit cap but under expertise. Under expertise hard cap is fine if you know how to bank holy power properly, but 15% hard cap is a lot easier to manage well in my opinion. Also, he really should have bought the haste/mastery valor neck, not the "tank" one. If he doesn't understand the benefits of haste, I would point him to Theck's modeling of haste with seal of insight benefits at sacredduty.com, or more simply have him read the mmochampion prot paladin threads. Basically, haste is better both defensively and offensively than mastery.

    Edit: apparently I hadn't refreshed the thread recently so didn't see that others posted basically the same but in more detail, sorry.
    Last edited by Gorfion; 2013-07-18 at 08:46 PM.

  14. #934
    Well, to be fair, you'd see a dip in HPS (and perhaps passive DPS, though I CBA to math that delta out right now) by foregoing all Exp in that example, since you'd see a ton less melee hits landing, ergo less SOI.

    Not to mention that you'd likely need a high-avoidance build, which would lower/neuter your haste values, further dropping both SOI AND SS. But yes, from a pure SHotR standpoint, that option has merit (specialized as it is).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  15. #935
    Armory Link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...anisa/advanced

    Alternate Specs/Glyphs: Don't change any talents normally, Except for level 90 talents. Glyphs I frequently switch Divine Protection out for Focus Shield and remove and reapply Focus Wrath on fights where I don't want adds on me.

    Worldoflogs Link: Guild Doesn't run world of logs saddly.

    Questions, concerns, expectations: Just wanna check up on my gear/gems/enchants/reforging ect.

    Description of Playstyle: Crusader Strike, Judgment, Avenger's Shield, Crusader Strike, Holy Wrath, Judgment, Crusader Strike, Hammer of wrath(If available), Consecration. I also use Sacred Shield of course whenever I need to refresh it.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheathx View Post
    Armory Link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...anisa/advanced

    Alternate Specs/Glyphs: Don't change any talents normally, Except for level 90 talents. Glyphs I frequently switch Divine Protection out for Focus Shield and remove and reapply Focus Wrath on fights where I don't want adds on me.

    Worldoflogs Link: Guild Doesn't run world of logs saddly.

    Questions, concerns, expectations: Just wanna check up on my gear/gems/enchants/reforging ect.

    Description of Playstyle: Crusader Strike, Judgment, Avenger's Shield, Crusader Strike, Holy Wrath, Judgment, Crusader Strike, Hammer of wrath(If available), Consecration. I also use Sacred Shield of course whenever I need to refresh it.
    Looks OK, but if you would switch some of your gems around, then you could get some extra socket bonuses.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Looks OK, but if you would switch some of your gems around, then you could get some extra socket bonuses.
    Idc for socket bonuses, it would be a loss of haste for an extra maybe 300 strength, Not worth it if you ask me tbh.

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheathx View Post
    Idc for socket bonuses, it would be a loss of haste for an extra maybe 300 strength, Not worth it if you ask me tbh.
    Simply move the two gems from your boots to your legplates -> free 120 strength.
    Or move that green gem to your weapon for extra 60 Str.
    That one random green gem which has better place bugs my OCD...

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Simply move the two gems from your boots to your legplates -> free 120 strength.
    Or move that green gem to your weapon for extra 60 Str.
    That one random green gem which has better place bugs my OCD...
    I would just put pure haste gems in the shoulders and the boots. Problem solved.

    Maybe change that haste/hit to the weapon if he really needs the hit.

    Socket bonuses are overrated.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #940
    Depends, although with his/her gear it would be alright.
    I can actually pick up some extra stats without loosing haste, so it ain't bad.

    I typically refoge everything to haste(&exp), and then play around with the caps and sockets. (Well this basically only means that I have to check how many orange gems do I need to reach the exp cap, as I'm over-capping hit.)
    It gave me:
    120 Str
    240 Crit
    60 Haste
    for nothing.

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