[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Nairobi]

Probably because he just got that belt before the horridon attempts and didn't try it. Im sure that isn't the real issue. The trinkets aren't really controllable...luck of the draw...as I said he just got his pally to 90 about a month and a half ago?

As I said, the trinket is the least of your worries. I merely brought it up due to the fact that it's a stam trinket, and he seems to have a raging hard-on for stamina for some reason; I'm explaining that stam in 10m is not needed, so if he's using it under the impression that it IS needed, then he can safely swap to a better option, like the ones I mentioned, or even a mastery trinket (but NOT the valor one!). Else, he can use it as a decent buffer/stam bank.

With that said he and I both felt his rotation is the biggest issue which you agree with. Instead of saying he needs to keep uptime on certain things....can we get into the rotation with a little more depth and detail....like what he literally needs to be doing based on single and multi target?

Basic rotation is CS, J, X, CS, X, J, CS, X, X where X are your "filler spells" like AS, HW, Cons, SS, t90. SS should be refreshed prior to expiring, and ideally whenever you're at a high veng level. Don't spam it, as it wastes a GCD (and the GCD isn't spell hasted, either), just try and be concious of it. Our rotation does not change when we have multiple targets. You can swap in HotR over CS if you like, and can play with raising the priority of Cons and/or AS over HW depending on glyphs and target count, but that's more andvanced than he needs to be concerned with right now.

Lastly...you contradict yourself with clemency. You say he shouldn't have clemency but yet u say he needs to tank horridon full time....how is that possible without clemency? Do tell.

I've not contradicted anything, he likely just didn't read the talent. Unbreakable Spirit reduces the CD of Bubble, DivProt and LOH by up to 50% when you spend holy power. Typically Bubble and LOH will get the full 50% (giving you 2.5 min bubbles and 5min LOH), and DivProt will be ~35-40sec CD instead of 60. This is why the talent is far better than Clemency. You still get 3 clears in 5 mins from 2 bubbles and 1 BOP, PLUS you get ~40% more uptime on DivProt AND 5min LOH for self/others.

Clemency is also poor in that the charges function like roll or DK runes; not resetting together. BoP @ 0 sec, and again at 60 sec, you will be unable to BoP again until 300 sec, and then again until 600 sec. The 2x use is only usable if you don't frequently cast, which makes it even MORE lackluster on long fights.

Lastly thanks for the reply, I'm gonna have him reforge and regem asap

Gem/Forge should help a bit, but really just sit him on a dummy or something for a while, since that's going to be the biggest change to his playstyle/ability. Ideally, send him to LFR to practice timing ShotR with things like Trip Punc, Snap Bite, Talon Rake, Hard Stare, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

First door : Divine Shield - second door : hand of protection - 3rd door: Divine Shield - 4th door: Hand of protection (possibly from a second paladin)

Honestly, that's a lot more clearing than you need, as you should only get ~9-11 stacks per door, depending on DPS. When we were doing this fight in week 2, that is how we did it (well, at door 4 I just let the co-tank take 1-2 TPs while my bubble came back up, then resumed tanking), but since upgrades and LMG/cloaks and other ilvl inflation, you can easily get away with clearing after door 2 and door 4 only. Presuming you time ShotR well, that is.

[trystero]

He's got major issues handling the active mitigation system; it's like he's not paid any attention to this whole expansion (no offense). That's very confusing, especially when you say that his best class is brewmaster, a spec which is built almost entirely on using active mitigation correctly. That's your biggest concern: it's not gear, it's not reforging, it's not talenting. It's active mitigation.

Anyway, he needs to be using SotR first and foremost for boss specials (Triple Puncture) and then when he's got that down he needs to spread as much coverage as possible - his SotR uptime hovers around 20%, which is very, very low. To put that number into perspective, many paladins achieved a 40% uptime LAST TIER.

I tank 25H, where obviously bosses hit harder, and the average damage I took from Triple Puncture on my last logged kill was 164k - and that includes solo-tanking Horridon past enrage for a few minutes, where his damage ramps up considerably. Your prot paladin by comparison, in 10M and when TP is at its weakest, averaged numbers like 213k, 196k...

You should never, ever see a log like this:

[21:24:58.580] Horridon Double Swipe Illness 175203
[21:24:58.963] Horridon hits Illness 267056
[21:24:59.017] Horridon Triple Puncture Illness 246693 (O: 35097) (more)

Ignoring the fact that he stood in AoE, the real problem is damage. 267k melee hit followed by a 247k Triple Puncture? And most of his deaths look like this. Where's the sacred shield to absorb six figures? Where's the SotR to depress the damage by ~45%? It's not there, because he's not timing anything. He NEEDS to be doing this. It's what the spec's designed around.

Paladins don't have huge health pools like DKs, and we don't have great defense like bears. We rely on self healing and active mitigation, neither of which your paladin's doing correctly.

[Nairobi]

Just to reiterate the importance of what Tryst pointed out (and that I mentioned earlier as well), but AM is far and away the most important thing.

On a given fight, I account for ~60-75% of the healing on myself. That means that I'm personally handling about 3/4 of the damage that I DO take (after factoring in ShotR, etc). This is done via 2 main avenues and a handful of smaller ones. The biggest 2 are Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight. As stated, his SS time is abysmally low. 16%, is about 80% below where it should be. SS will be your top "heal" albeit an absorb, which is actually a key part of how we mitigate damage between ShotR's. Secondly is of course Seal of Insight, which helps to smooth and recover our damage better than really any other tank. He's not even using it!

I know it was mentioned before, but since I didn't see any acknowledgement of these 2, I wanted to stress them again.

[Nillo]

Lastly...you contradict yourself with clemency. You say he shouldn't have clemency but yet u say he needs to tank horridon full time....how is that possible without clemency? Do tell.

If your paladin does his rotation correctly there's no need to reset the stacks at all.
If you want to play safe 1 HoP and 1 Divine Shield are more than enough to reset stacks.

[Cheekun]

If your paladin does his rotation correctly there's no need to reset the stacks at all.
If you want to play safe 1 HoP and 1 Divine Shield are more than enough to reset stacks.

To clarify even further you bubble-hand of protection-bubble, stacks on the fourth door (at least for my group) can't be reset right after the door charge, and we don't have a secound paladin. The simple solution is you'll be taking a bit more damage until your bubble or hand comes off cd again (by the fourth door charge, mine still has about a 30 secound cd). As long as you clear your stacks before horridon enrages, your fine. (you'll clear them way before it happens anyway). The key is using your active mitagation to its fullest, and saving your big cooldowns for when horridon enrages. (This is all HM horridon, but it applies to both difficulties).

[Hartlin]

So, is using the Prot 4pc somewhat viable if you can game Div Prot for extra HoPo?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...arity/advanced

That is my set-up with the Prot 4pc on. Normally, I'd be using the Ret tier chest, HM Horridon legs, and the Hit Haste Primo gloves (normal).

In my non-4pc setup, I have 17k haste. So, I'm giving up ~2k haste to run the tier set. Worth it?

If you see any other tweaks, let me know.

[celinamuna]

Hello,
I have a prot pally player who is struggling with his Prot pally on Heroics. With his gear, he should be doing better at mitigation, threat, and damage, however he does not excel as well as he should in either of those areas. The player himself is very talented. Plays just about every class, originally tanked on a druid for many expansions and for this expansion tanked on a brewmaster who he has mastered however we recently switched him to pally a month ago for bop (because we lost our pally healer) and because we wanted a plate tank and a lw tank. with that said, the simple solution is "just have him tank on his brew" which we do not want to do. It just works better for our raid in the future if he is a pally, warrior, or dk.

anyways, What is he doing wrong, and what could he be doing better? I think it has to do with his rotation and how he attacks enemies, etc. His gear set is going towards a "balanced" set up. He has had trouble keeping threat on adds on heroic horridon. OR, if he is on Horridon, he would randomly just die sometimes while tanking heroic horridon (while on the doors, not while horridon is enraged)

Here is a link to his Armory
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lness/advanced

I will post 2 sets of logs. One set is us learning and wiping on horridon.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=68476

the second set of logs is him tanking horridon on his pally like 3 attempts, then he switches to his brew.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=68476


any real feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Links are broken :
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lness/advanced
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=68476
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=68476

Over hit cap, over exp cap.

Using the longest fight for the breakdown :
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6932&e=7590
200 hop gained , 147 spend on SotR , a maximum of 21 spent on WoG --> 32 HoP unspent which is ~ 30 sec worth of SotR\

He seems to be seal twisting between righteousness for aoe dps and truth but at the same time he's not paying attention to consecrate.
His sacred shield uptime (of the 30 sec buff) is 28.7% should be closer to 90%.
In an 11 min fight he only used Wings twice (could've used them at least 4 times)
Only 2 Holy Avengers (could've been 5-6)

Doesn't seem to be timing a SotR for every triple puncture or dire call.

- - - Updated - - -

To clarify even further you bubble-hand of protection-bubble, stacks on the fourth door (at least for my group) can't be reset right after the door charge, and we don't have a secound paladin. The simple solution is you'll be taking a bit more damage until your bubble or hand comes off cd again (by the fourth door charge, mine still has about a 30 secound cd). As long as you clear your stacks before horridon enrages, your fine. (you'll clear them way before it happens anyway). The key is using your active mitagation to its fullest, and saving your big cooldowns for when horridon enrages. (This is all HM horridon, but it applies to both difficulties).

I think that when i run clemency and do BoP DS BoP DS i can reset after every gate (or so it seemed)
However you don't really need to as you can just take the first one, pop cd's on the 2nd one, and then start resetting.
(Alternatively you can try to DS BoP DS BoP, on that fight i run clemency just for double sac)

- - - Updated - - -

So, is using the Prot 4pc somewhat viable if you can game Div Prot for extra HoPo?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...arity/advanced

That is my set-up with the Prot 4pc on. Normally, I'd be using the Ret tier chest, HM Horridon legs, and the Hit Haste Primo gloves (normal).

In my non-4pc setup, I have 17k haste. So, I'm giving up ~2k haste to run the tier set. Worth it?

If you see any other tweaks, let me know.

From what it seems, it is viable but only on fights with incredible tank damage (~solo tanking DA / possibly solo tanking lei-shen)

[trystero]

Promdates here uses the 4p and swears by it. He also gets the highest SotR uptimes I've seen.

[celinamuna]

Promdates here uses the 4p and swears by it. He also gets the highest SotR uptimes I've seen.

Another thing to consider is 10 vs 25 man (where me thinks 25 man tanks get more HoPs out of it)

[Hartlin]

Another thing to consider is 10 vs 25 man (where me thinks 25 man tanks get more HoPs out of it)

I'm in a 10m guild. Anyone else have input on whether it's something that is viable only on fights with very high tank damage? If so, would solo tanking Iron Qon apply to that?

[celinamuna]

I'm in a 10m guild. Anyone else have input on whether it's something that is viable only on fights with very high tank damage? If so, would solo tanking Iron Qon apply to that?

Only if you don't reset it till way later. I think i try to reset around 9+ and still not sure it would offset the dmg lost.
But i'd say best bet is just to test it out.

[Nillo]

I'm in a 10m guild. Anyone else have input on whether it's something that is viable only on fights with very high tank damage? If so, would solo tanking Iron Qon apply to that?

Should at least be useful for the only time you actually take damage - the start of p4 and late in p4 (if you don't reset). But then there's the problem that getting the best out of the 4p prevents speccing into Purity which is massive against the dot if used correctly and idk if the extra hp is enough to close the gaps between.
Most of the time you'd have to go out of your way to increase damage intake to a point where the 4p matters.

[Nairobi]

Should at least be useful for the only time you actually take damage - the start of p4 and late in p4 (if you don't reset). But then there's the problem that getting the best out of the 4p prevents speccing into Purity which is massive against the dot if used correctly and idk if the extra hp is enough to close the gaps between.

This is the biggest issue against 4pc on IQ. Purity alone allows you to run stacks up to 8-9 (in 10m) which is where the majority of your veng damage will come from. The fight is far shorter now than it used to be (duh), where we're pushing to the first windstorm at ~6 stacks (instead of 8-9 when we started), and burining the rest to phase 4 before I get up to ~7 again. Purity allows me to keep those stacks up to try and retain damage throughput. 70+10% on the DOT is far better than the 20% you'd get from UbS+4pc for this fight.

Most of the time you'd have to go out of your way to increase damage intake to a point where the 4p matters.

Eh, I mostly agree, but since the only times that HoPur is really useful (IMO) is on JiKun and Qon, I run UbS on everything else, which means that I could boost those uptimes a good bit. Lining up DivProt on Horri with a TP/DC combo, and then taking a few melee/standing in swipe would be a good amount of [safe] damage. DivProt + no ShotR on Tortos for SB won't eat your shield, and is a fair bit of [safe] damage. Using DivProt on 2nd breath (if you get one) on Meg would provide a few HoPo (since the melees coming in when DivProt is up counts as damage). Etc, etc.

For math's sake, PD mapped out how much value the 4-set gives in terms of haste, and figured that even getting just 2 extra HoPo per cast of DivProt was worth ~4200 haste. Since we would likely see at least 2-3x that amount, even in 10m HC, you can extrapolate it's value from there. Granted, that's primarily looking at the haste benefit in terms of ShotR uptime rather than DPS, but extra ShotR casts still do damage.

Still, I don't run it personally in t15, mainly because I'm lazy about re-setting up my entire gearset at the moment when everything is on farm. But I am really looking into running it in t16 since it seems like the stronger of the 2 set bonuses, despite the loss in stats. We SHOULD be able to make up the difference with off-set pieces, remaining hit/exp/haste capped.

[Deleted]

First door : Divine Shield - second door : hand of protection - 3rd door: Divine Shield - 4th door: Hand of protection (possibly from a second paladin)

Its better if u divine shield first, then divine shield second too ( doable by doing it while boss is casting the swipe to avoid all danger of it targetting anyone else), Hand 3rd door and divine 4th then u will have hand again if needed.

[Nairobi]

Its better if u divine shield first, then divine shield second too ( doable by doing it while boss is casting the swipe to avoid all danger of it targetting anyone else), Hand 3rd door and divine 4th then u will have hand again if needed.

Firstly, you can simply taunt boss then cast DS to avoid him attacking someone else.

Secondly, how do you propose someone uses DS on first door, then uses it again on 2nd door? It's got a 5min CD, down to 2.5 mins at best with UbS. Doors take maybe 90-100 seconds.

Even so, you really should not ever need to clear stacks every door anyhow; every other door is more than sufficient.

[JevtaSRB]

Sorry about making a thread, i'll post here:
Long story short, it's my first time in tot 10 normal, i need some constructive criticism on geming and glyphs , (also Windsong or Colossus for weapon enchant).
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Yevta/advanced

[Nairobi]

Sorry about making a thread, i'll post here:
Long story short, it's my first time in tot 10 normal, i need some constructive criticism on geming and glyphs , (also Windsong or Colossus for weapon enchant).
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Yevta/advanced

Posted in the original one, but moving it here for when that gets closed:

It's just where people go to critique/help. These standalone threads end up merged or closed.

River's Song is terrible, and should never be used by anyone. If you can't afford Dancing Steel, get Windsong. Colossus hasn't been useful since early t14.

You've got a lot of avoidance gear. Obviously you're at the mercy of RNJesus when it comes to what drops, but it looks like you're rolling as Prot for a lot of the LFR's. Stop that. The only bosses you should roll Prot for are Iron Qon and Lei Shen; rest are far better rolling as Ret. Since you have a shield already, I'd not even bother rolling Prot on Lei Shen, TBH.

Both those rings are pretty sad; you can get an easy upgrade from valor with the 522 haste/crit ring from SPA.

Trinkets are good, but seeing as how you're at 6% expertise, I'd suggest getting the SPA Expertise trinket.

Your gemming is all over the place. Exp/Haste, Mastery/Sta, etc. It's never worth it to go for an avoidance socket bonus (chest), and I don't personally bother with STR ones either. You've also got the wrong meta.

Talents/glyphs look OK.

Basically, you need to rearrange gear if possible (and buy the recommended items above) to get you to:
7.5% hit
7.5% exp (at least)
Rest into haste.

You can stack exp beyond 7.5, but I'd not worry about that too much at your gear level.

If you can make the Haste/Mastery 522 boots, they will last you until SoO.

[Deleted]

Should at least be useful for the only time you actually take damage - the start of p4 and late in p4 (if you don't reset). But then there's the problem that getting the best out of the 4p prevents speccing into Purity which is massive against the dot if used correctly and idk if the extra hp is enough to close the gaps between.
Most of the time you'd have to go out of your way to increase damage intake to a point where the 4p matters.

U use purity?

[Nairobi]

U use purity?

If you don't use HoPur on IQ, you're doing it wrong.

[Deleted]

If you don't use HoPur on IQ, you're doing it wrong.

I reset my stats once before the windstorm, and 1 more time after all dogs die in last phase. Only 1 use in the entire fight of HoP is meaningful. How come i do the fight wrong w/o it?