1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    What do you want me to do at the office? Work?

    Yeah, but dat stomp! Also, herbalism (luls). I guess BE racials are nice, esp for PVP, but the enchanting thing blows too. Human for life, at least (almost) all of them are useful and/or not wasteful/superfluous.
    I'm the same way. Nothing else to do at work other than press F5. I actually liked having War Stomp for CM's, but the fact that it would get push back from mobs really sucked. I don't understand why it even has a cast time anymore, even if it is like 0.5s. The BE racial is good for casters though, so that helps.

    I did try to talk them into going alliance because human>*, but troll>* beat me out.



  2. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah I'm not looking to really check details, just curious to see how much accuracy there are to some of your numbers/claims, since a lot of folks like to....exaggerate on the internet. As stated, in farm mode I get really lazy, but then I'll see some monter parse and want to go try hard for a week.
    I dont really exaggerate as you can see from the logs. I do stress though that I play as I play and do not really advise people to adapt my playstyle 100%. I only advise people to do as I do when it is 100% benefitial, like keeping a beast or two alive on twins, is awesome, 0 risk, 200k extra vengeance.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #1243
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Really, I had no issue staying alive with 3 beasts on me, I guess this is the exact reason why they are nerfing vengeance scaling from adds. Since I could substain myself 100% on the first phase basically.
    I just made sure to have the beasts dead by infernos so that our healers would not have corrupted healing + inferno on them.
    I had 531 Itemlevel by the time we actually killed them. When we started progressing on them (too us like 5 weeks from first try to first kill since we only progressed it when we had spare time in the ID) I had like 524ish itemlevel since I just rerolled from DK to Prot. And it wasn't really possible to keep up 2 beasts + 10-15 adds without external healing. Maybe I did something wrong, dunno. But I pretty much burned through all my defensive cooldowns and started spiking pretty hard with the 2nd beast + adds. Ended up playing it safe and just kill the first beast when the second beast spawned.

    Haven't changed anything since 524 Itemlevel though. Guess it's about time :-)
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  4. #1244
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah, just seems like a bit of a waste there is all. Plus, I CBA to change talents all that much!
    Haha, I always keep like 60-100 tomes of clear mind in my bags, I switch talents and glyphs so often, can switch on trash between bosses just to switch back again.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #1245
    You mean people don't carry 40-80 tomes a night? Blasphemy!



  6. #1246
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    I had 531 Itemlevel by the time we actually killed them. When we started progressing on them (too us like 5 weeks from first try to first kill since we only progressed it when we had spare time in the ID) I had like 524ish itemlevel since I just rerolled from DK to Prot. And it wasn't really possible to keep up 2 beasts + 10-15 adds without external healing. Maybe I did something wrong, dunno. But I pretty much burned through all my defensive cooldowns and started spiking pretty hard with the 2nd beast + adds. Ended up playing it safe and just kill the first beast when the second beast spawned.

    Haven't changed anything since 524 Itemlevel though. Guess it's about time :-)
    Yeah, I had about 532 when we killed them, I did not use any CDs at all in P1. What should be stressed though is the importance to reapply SS often in P1, since your vengeance is going up and up and up. So when you get a new beast spawn, quickly to a sotr+sit to get a fast peak, and reapply ss, then just ride the vengeance wave. I want to have my CDs for P2, since tanking 2 beasts + fan of flames hurt a bit, I use Stoneform (yay dwarf) for the first, divine protection for the second, and either ardent defender or GoAK for the third depending on my mood, which then transitions into an inferno at which point I kill beasts so it is not a problem anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    You mean people don't carry 40-80 tomes a night? Blasphemy!
    I do! I agree, blasphemy to play a protection paladin without a bag assigned for tomes.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #1247
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Haha, I always keep like 60-100 tomes of clear mind in my bags, I switch talents and glyphs so often, can switch on trash between bosses just to switch back again.
    ahah I'm more like Nairobi. I cba changing talents. However on our first kills we needed my LH, especially if the first comet didnt spawn. So I kinda needed to switch there :-). Nowadays I cba most of the time. But then again, it's not needed anyway.

    Tomes? Isn't that what Jeeves are for? :-) (we have like 6 jeeves in our raid..)
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  8. #1248
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    ahah I'm more like Nairobi. I cba changing talents. However on our first kills we needed my LH, especially if the first comet didnt spawn. So I kinda needed to switch there :-). Nowadays I cba most of the time. But then again, it's not needed anyway.

    Tomes? Isn't that what Jeeves are for? :-) (we have like 6 jeeves in our raid..)
    There are not enough Jeeves in the world to allow me to respec when I want to
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #1249
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Hey so quick question about analyzing World of Logs (mostly so I don't always have to drop in the thread with a "Hey am I doing X right" type of question): As a Prot Pally what sort of things should I be looking at when analyzing my own performance via WoL? Obviously SotR uptimes, but like is there an ideal goal in general or does it differ per fight? Sacred Shield uptime (ideally 100% I know). Cooldown usage and things like that (which I'm still working on; the idea of knowing a fight will last 8 minutes say so I can use cooldowns early and have them back up is still a bit new to me). Anything else in particular I should monitor that would help me improve my own skill to show up that arrogant bear (lol) without resorting to scumbagging vengeance (incidentally I tried that on Lei Shen by using AD to soak a Decapitate when standing right next to him, but it didn't seem to give me a lot of Vengeance so I didn't bother with it afterwards)?
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  10. #1250
    Jeeves is to restock your supply between pulls :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Hey so quick question about analyzing World of Logs (mostly so I don't always have to drop in the thread with a "Hey am I doing X right" type of question): As a Prot Pally what sort of things should I be looking at when analyzing my own performance via WoL? Obviously SotR uptimes, but like is there an ideal goal in general or does it differ per fight? Sacred Shield uptime (ideally 100% I know). Cooldown usage and things like that (which I'm still working on; the idea of knowing a fight will last 8 minutes say so I can use cooldowns early and have them back up is still a bit new to me). Anything else in particular I should monitor that would help me improve my own skill to show up that arrogant bear (lol) without resorting to scumbagging vengeance (incidentally I tried that on Lei Shen by using AD to soak a Decapitate when standing right next to him, but it didn't seem to give me a lot of Vengeance so I didn't bother with it afterwards)?
    You can check for SotR applications vs specific debuffs like Triple Puncture or Hard Stare. I did notice that unless the boss is still actively on me, I won't gain much vengeance from Decapitate at point blank range. I believe most of the vengeance you gain is actually from the physical attacks that follow the decapitate, as I've seen my vengeance sit around 120-130 for the dcap then skyrocket to 400-500k after from the melee swings. If you want, you can PM me your logs and I'll go over it. You could also try to fraps your kills and I'll compare them to what I do. I could also send you my youtube page to see the videos I have, some of them are from my monk though.



  11. #1251
    I'll min/max on progression, but once something is on farm and smooth, I just go on cruise control. I keep ~2 stacks of tomes, but since we just have a 3-4hr clear once a week, I don't even touch my pally much anymore Luckily, only a few weeks til SoO and we can start all over!

    Arothand - AD won't give you bonus V from Decap specifically, just allow you to take it to the face and then start tanking with the 100% damage debuff. THAT is where the V comes from.

    You can check in logs to make sure all nukes (SB, TP, Stare, TR, etc) are covered with ShotR. Outside of that, just make sure that your CS:J ratio is correct/close, your SS and ShotR uptimes are good/improving, and try to learn the durations of the fights so that you can plan CD use (both offensive and defensive).

    Remember that DivProt CD is SHORT, so "use it or lose it".
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #1252
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Jeeves is to restock your supply between pulls :P
    this!!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Hey so quick question about analyzing World of Logs (mostly so I don't always have to drop in the thread with a "Hey am I doing X right" type of question): As a Prot Pally what sort of things should I be looking at when analyzing my own performance via WoL? Obviously SotR uptimes, but like is there an ideal goal in general or does it differ per fight? Sacred Shield uptime (ideally 100% I know). Cooldown usage and things like that (which I'm still working on; the idea of knowing a fight will last 8 minutes say so I can use cooldowns early and have them back up is still a bit new to me). Anything else in particular I should monitor that would help me improve my own skill to show up that arrogant bear (lol) without resorting to scumbagging vengeance (incidentally I tried that on Lei Shen by using AD to soak a Decapitate when standing right next to him, but it didn't seem to give me a lot of Vengeance so I didn't bother with it afterwards)?
    - SoTR Uptime
    - SS Uptime (95%+)
    - Divine Protections cast (fight length)
    - Holy Avenger / Wrath cast (fight length)

    - Your SS healing should be > your seal of insight healing (or else you dont reapply SS when its higher than your current one)
    - 30+ Secs on your Strength potion (so you know you used it twice)
    - Holy Power gained should be equal to Holy Power spent (SoTR / WoG)
    - C:JS ratio should be correct
    - AS and SoTR should be your two highest damage spells
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  13. #1253
    Potions?

    Yall n*ggas crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #1254
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I should start recording things... I tend to only do it when I want to review things (like the bear pulling aggro back almost immediately after I taunt, like within two GCDs) or stupid bugs like Iron Qon's tornadoes coming into the back of the room where all of us are (happened 3 times last night).

    Here's this week's set of logs, but I don't think I've improved much on anything yet as I tend to.. get freaked out a bit when my health drops, and start to do what I can with cooldowns because my healers have in the past been slow on the ball (and we 3-heal everything too, I can't get them to try 2-healing). I've been going to Isle of Giants to practice timing with the big direhorns, but I'm far from where I think I could be, mostly due to either forgetting about cooldowns or not using them enough (DP is the major thing here with such a short cooldown, I use it very infrequently because I think I'm stuck in the mindset of "Cooldowns are for oh shit moments", and I'm finding it kind of hard to get out of that mindset out of fear of not having it later when I'll really need it):

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zxty8gn0q8cgvizr/
    (Tuesday, first 8 bosses; Durumu issues due to typical morons moving too fast or dying to beams, DA one wipe due to getting too many large golems I think due to Hunters/Mage having pets out)
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-jcuek0xctx7k3z31/ (Qon/Twins/Lei Shen progression; no idea why it says that we tried IQ heroic because we didn't)

    We seemed to have a lot of issues on Iron Qon for some reason (although not surprising, we had only killed him once before and he stumped us for a week, and I'm not allowed to solo tank him for reasons I've stated in the past): people dying to tornadoes almost immediately, not stacking correctly, dying to fire, etc. It was a pretty bad ragefest from the bear (to the point where a few people nearly ragequit because he was calling them out for no reason, and I basically started trolling him just to piss him off); I should have recorded it for Youtube gold.

    EDIT: Yeah, definitely need to get out of the current mindset I have with cooldowns. I'm not sure how to check for like if I had SotR up during TP and similar, but even looking at Horridon logs I'm barely using cooldowns at all (2x DP, no GANK, one AD which I think was a mistake anyways with a fat-fingered keybind), when I should have had about 10 or more DPs. I'm still thinking that I shouldn't use DP in conjunction with things, but like if I know I'm going to not have a SotR up for Puncture, THEN use DP.. which is clearly incorrect. Back to the Isle tonight, I guess
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-08-08 at 02:58 PM.
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  15. #1255
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    that brings me to an idea


    wouldnt it be like the coolest thing to have a WoL guideline for new (and established) protadins?


    something along the lines I posted above, combined with what nairobi / prom said along with some other stuff


    I mean lets face it. Analyzing logs is about checking the same stuff over and over again.


    wouldnt that make sense / help alot of people?
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  16. #1256
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    that brings me to an idea


    wouldnt it be like the coolest thing to have a WoL guideline for new (and established) protadins?


    something along the lines I posted above, combined with what nairobi / prom said along with some other stuff


    I mean lets face it. Analyzing logs is about checking the same stuff over and over again.


    wouldnt that make sense / help alot of people?
    I think it would really help. Even things like "Your SS uptime should be x% or higher" or "Make sure you are using cooldowns; look at the time the fight takes and determine how many times you could use the cooldowns, so you aren't afraid of using them". It doesn't even have to go into detail of how to analyze WoL with things like "are you using your active mitigation for every triple puncture/snapping bite/talon rake/hard stare" which I think is more complex.
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  17. #1257
    You mean like a new sticky? Or just an addendum to this thread?

    But yeah, basically whenever anyone posts logs, first thing I do is go look at armory to make sure they have a clue what they're doing. Then check SS/ShotR uptimes. Then look at fight length and figure out GCD usage and HoPo efficiency. Then can look deeper into CD use and ShotR timing.

    I'd actually like to try and "try" this week to have someone pick apart my logs. I know I posted some from like Tortos back in May, and found out that I was wasting lik 8-11% of my GCDs simply from refreshing SS too often (trying to game feather buff!) and the long GCD it and LH produced.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I think it would really help. Even things like "Your SS uptime should be x% or higher" or "Make sure you are using cooldowns; look at the time the fight takes and determine how many times you could use the cooldowns, so you aren't afraid of using them". It doesn't even have to go into detail of how to analyze WoL with things like "are you using your active mitigation for every triple puncture/snapping bite/talon rake/hard stare" which I think is more complex.
    The boldest part is the most important part of playing a paladin, though.

    Not doing that properly means the rest of your logs matter fuck-all, since you're not AMing what you're sposed to. That should be the FIRST step, TBH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #1258
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You mean like a new sticky? Or just an addendum to this thread?

    But yeah, basically whenever anyone posts logs, first thing I do is go look at armory to make sure they have a clue what they're doing. Then check SS/ShotR uptimes. Then look at fight length and figure out GCD usage and HoPo efficiency. Then can look deeper into CD use and ShotR timing.

    I'd actually like to try and "try" this week to have someone pick apart my logs. I know I posted some from like Tortos back in May, and found out that I was wasting lik 8-11% of my GCDs simply from refreshing SS too often (trying to game feather buff!) and the long GCD it and LH produced.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The boldest part is the most important part of playing a paladin, though.

    Not doing that properly means the rest of your logs matter fuck-all, since you're not AMing what you're sposed to. That should be the FIRST step, TBH.
    Right, I just meant that seems to be more involved with log analysis (I'm not even sure how to check that myself, like to actually see the combat log so I can see if it's up when I get hit by TP before it fades).
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  19. #1259
    There's a filter/code that can sort for all events X on you, and check if Y is present.

    I'm not sure how to do it either, TBH, so I'd appreciate the WOL-101 tips too
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #1260
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Hey so quick question about analyzing World of Logs (mostly so I don't always have to drop in the thread with a "Hey am I doing X right" type of question): As a Prot Pally what sort of things should I be looking at when analyzing my own performance via WoL? Obviously SotR uptimes, but like is there an ideal goal in general or does it differ per fight? Sacred Shield uptime (ideally 100% I know). Cooldown usage and things like that (which I'm still working on; the idea of knowing a fight will last 8 minutes say so I can use cooldowns early and have them back up is still a bit new to me). Anything else in particular I should monitor that would help me improve my own skill to show up that arrogant bear (lol) without resorting to scumbagging vengeance (incidentally I tried that on Lei Shen by using AD to soak a Decapitate when standing right next to him, but it didn't seem to give me a lot of Vengeance so I didn't bother with it afterwards)?
    Okay, so what the others said, check your CD usage, especially AW and T6 talent.
    Check your SotR uptime and make sure you used it on all the hard hitting shit.
    etc, all the standard stuff

    Also, check your GCD usage, it is time consuming but rewarding. Check exactly how many GCDs you used on that fight, count everything, that includes cleanses, hands etc, just everything. Remember to count 1.5 second GCDs on LH/ES/SS. Then check how many GCDs you could have used that fight, of course take into consideration parts of a fight where you cant use GCDs if there are any. Did you use enough GCDs? Did you use to few? Feels like we stress this again and again, but the most common problem any paladin tank do is not mashing the buttons fast enough, having low GCD usage is often what almost every paladin tank can improve. And as I say sometimes, it is not much use gearing for haste to get your GCD down to 1.1 seconds or whatever you have if you click a spell once every 1.6 seconds anyway, make sure you are actually utilizing that haste.

    Also, check your deaths, if you have any. Of course by this I mean, did you die first at any time, not when you were wiping the fight. If you die first you, your healers or your raid likely did something wrong. Is this something you can prevent? You died because the boss got into a phase where he hits you harder? Did you use your GoAK? Your healthstone? Was all your CDs on cooldown? Simply not enough heals? Basically was there anything you could have done to prevent your death.

    The last thing I would like to stress, unlike others, a reason why I dont like my logs so much is because my SS uptime is very low towards what some people say. I always see people stressing that you should have 100% SS uptime. While this holds truth, aiming for 100% uptime is not bad, but IF your uptime is lower than 95%, dont worry to much. Check when you had that uptime instead. For example me, On a recent fight I had 66% SS uptime, *gasp*, how terrible!

    But if I actually take and take a look at that, when did I have my uptime? If I take and overlap my damage taken chart with my ss uptime chart, I get this result.



    The orange line is my damage taken, ignore that other bright yellow line or w/e color that is. The green parts are of course my SS uptime.
    So in this log there is 2 "bad" things I'd like the point out, first off, I could easily have applied SS prepull, but I did not.
    Where I put that beautiful blue cross 1/4th in to the fight, is the only time I should slap myself on the wrist, I should not have let SS fall off there, that was bad of me.

    Other than that, you see that the only part of the fight where I take dangerous damage is the start, I got 100% SS uptime at that time, I keep up SS all the time, and even reapply it frequently, as you can see the damage taken goes up and up and up, this means that so does my vengeance, so I keep reapplying it.

    The rest of the fight, the damage taken is just non-existant. If I have SS on or not does not matter, random hots + my SoI heals me anyway, the only thing SS is going to contribute at these parts of the fight is a very small SS due to low vengeance that only causes overhealing. You can see that the few times I applied SS it was after my damage in-take had been "high", a.k.a. less low than average, so I had a decent amount of vengeance, then I applied it sometimes when I had an opening in my rotation.

    But really, for the rest of the fight, I prioritised using any damage ability over SS, since my damage in-take was not high enough to justify using SS. A lot of the globals that usually goes into casting SS instead went into /sitting and casting Hand of Sacrifice on a hunter that likes to stand in shit.

    So guess what I am saying about SS, make sure you have 100% uptime when you take a lot of damage, if you let it fall off when you are not tanking or when your vengeance is very very low, it is not the end of the world, 95% uptime is great, but if you can survive with 70% uptime over the fight and 100% uptime when you take a lot of damage, and not stress the healers at all and do 2 million extra damage because you did not reapply an unnecessary SS, then that is even better.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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