[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Kethmil]

<snip>

Trying to do same as you did with one of my logs, but having a hard time trying to figure out how many cons i casted.

Ended building an expression on expression editor like:

spellID = 26573

but for sure there's an easier way of doing it.

How do you do it?

I ended up with these figures:

HW: 27
CS/HOTR: 73
AS: 27
HoW: 5
Cons: 29
HP: 2 (always forget to include it in my rotation , mainly use it as an instant raid heal)
SS: 9

Total: 223 gcd

Durumu NM fight, 264 seconds fight , like 45% haste.

Edit: Damn, double post. Sorry.
Edit2: Added SS.

[Seahenar]

...

The string I use for checking gcds is, although this only looks at total GCDs

type = TYPE_CAST
AND sourcename = "YourName"
AND (spell = "Light's Hammer" OR spell = "Crusader Strike" OR (spell = "Hammer of the Righteous" AND targetreaction=REACTION_HOSTILE) OR spell = "Avenger's Shield" OR spell = "Consecration" OR spell = "Holy Wrath" OR spell = "Hammer of Wrath" OR spell = "Sacred Shield" OR spell = "Cleanse" OR spell = "Judgment" OR spell = "Hand of Protection" OR spell = "Divine Shield" OR spell = "Hand of Salvation" OR spell = "Hand of Sacrifice" OR spell = "Hand of Purity" OR spell = "Hand of Freedom" OR spell = "Holy Prism" OR spell = "Execution Sentence")

Obviously if you're only looking at certain spells you can just shorten it to the spells you want, so for cons it would just be

type = TYPE_CAST
AND sourcename = "YourName"
AND spell = "Consecration"

Rather than the whole thing.

[Deleted]

SoTR / HP

Holy Power gained + DP Proccs: 56 possible SoTR/WoG
SoTR cast: 55
WoG cast: 1

SoTR Uptime: 61.6 %


CS/J

CS+HOTR:J 72:54 / Ratio is 1.33 thats perfect, right?

CS cd with 48% haste = 3,04 sec?
J cd with 48% haste = 4,05 sec?

261 sec / 3,04 sec = 85,86 CS
261 sec / 4,05 sec = 64,44 J

--> 13,86 CS + 10,44 J that potentially have been lost

--> Thats a total of 24 HP lost / 8 SoTR (x 3 sec uptime) / 24 sec uptime ~~ 9% more Uptime which would bring my SoTR Uptime to 70.6%.

--> How does Bloodlust factor into this? We used it for the 20% burn and Boss died 4 secs after Bloodlust faded.

--> How much does the Burn phase factor into this? You naturally try to use more AS/HOW/AS instead of CS/J (at least I do most of the time).


Spell Overview

HW: 31
CS/HOTR: 72
AS: 26
J: 54
HoW: 7
Cons: 22

So gonna reply mostly to this section.

As Nairobi said, 99.9999% of paladins simply dont click their buttons fast enough. That is something we can always approve, and dont think I have ever looked at any of my own logs thinking "I could have used more GCDs", even if I had played near perfect on that attempt. There simply is no such thing as pefection for paladins, you can always do better.

First of, CD usage, as far as I can tell, it was your other paladin that used GoAK, not you. I can detect any GoAK casts from you, not sure if wrong or not but.
Nothing wrong with your cd usage though, you obviously survived fine. Something I would like to point out though, is that there was 1 point of the fight where your damage spiked through the roof, you had 0 CDs for this point in time. If you check your damage taken, your damage taken chart you can clearly see it, right before your healer died from bats, and having a CD there would have been advisable. As a main tank when duo tanking tortos or kiting bats, there is just no reason why you would not save your CDs for those oh-shit moments when shit goes wrong, the other tank dies or DCs or whatever. Tortos hits like a wet noodle on his own, so I would really have liked to have seen a GoAK there, or at the very least AD.

Still, you survived, no harm done. Shame on the other paladin.

@CS:J

Remember that J has an effective base cooldown of 6.75 seconds if you are going for max HoPo regen, which would put your CD at 4.56 seconds.
The optimal ratio for CS:J is 1:0.66 or 3:2, whichever makes it easier for you.

Your filler usage seems fine in terms of ratios.

Tortos is however one of those fights where I would not really bother that hard checking CS:J ratio. It is a fight where I gladly would trade a few CSs for more dps by casting something else. You should also notice that if you go for a CS>J at all times, the quake stomps are going to favor Judgments, you will probably see a small off-set in the Judgments cast by that, +1-3 J compared to what it "should" be. In the end, you gotta ask yourself, what were you aiming for?

Where you aiming for a perfect CS:J ratio for HoPo? In that case you need to work a little bit for it, still nothing horrific, you were pretty close to that.
Where you intentionally devaluing CS sometimes for fillerls? In that case that ratio is fine.

All in all, mashing buttons faster > CS:J ratio imo. You ratio was close enough, you could have squeezed out a few more GCDs, which still was fine.
This log is far better than 95% of the people posting for help in this thread. So all criticism is really just nitpicking.

- - - Updated - - -

Durumu NM fight, 264 seconds fight , like 45% haste.

You are prioritising consecration far to high. Should be more HW casts than Cons as your HW got a CD of 6.2s~ and Cons got an effective CD of 9s, while the technical CD is the same as HW, you should try not to clip your cons whenever possible.

Btw, completely unrelated. I fell asleep after working on some numbers on my paladin. I actually dreamt that there was a hotfix in-game that made it possible to have multiple consecrations up, i.e. if you cast a new consecration while your previous was up, it would not replace the old one, simply create a new one. Oh, the dreams we have.

[Riemu2k3]

Trying to do same as you did with one of my logs, but having a hard time trying to figure out how many cons i casted.

Ended building an expression on expression editor like:

spellID = 26573

but for sure there's an easier way of doing it.

How do you do it?

Log Browser -> Spell Cast Consecration and Source = PLAYER (sth like that)

- - - Updated - - -

So all criticism is really just nitpicking.

Nitpicking is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for general advice. I've had some pretty good rankings this tier while progressing without even trying to rank. But, when the content is clear you have a) time to reflect back and b) you need to make sure youre not falling into some form of lethargy. So what I need is a hard kick in the butt that tells me "wake up you sucker, youre not as good as you think you are".

To be honest, I don't try to do anything special. I don't try to min/max HP or min/max damage taken. I just try to deliver the best performance thats needed. And thats somewhat a combination of both. So I'm looking to do max DPS while also having max heal on myself, max mitigation (sotr, cds) and max raidsupport.

My blessing and my curse is, that I am a guild/raidleader. I do everything at once. Making sure that everyone does his job, yell at people, call everything that needs to be called. I'm a very observant player. Prot Pally fits me well because I can help out / fix other ppls mistakes by using devo aura / loh / wog / HoS etc. at the right moment. So a lot of my attention gets diverted from tanking and actually making sure to hit the right buttons at the right time, to other stuff. And I need to work on improving my play without sacrificing anything of my raidleading stuff.

So yes, its nitpicking but its exactly what I need. So please go ahead and pick away.

I actually don't think I can mash my buttons faster. I have a pretty good mechanical keyboard and insanely fast finger movement (I actually have problems with tendonitis if I play too much (dunno if its the right word). Maybe its more of a problem of hitting buttons that are on cd, even though other buttons are already ready. At least that's what I notice often - especially when I'm busy making calls or looking at timers (cant do 3 things at once, so hitting my buttons suffers. I actually keep hitting my buttons but since I cant see what cds are ready I just hit those buttons that I believe are ready if that makes sense)

--

@GoAK usage: I haven't really looked if I used it - I just assumed that I did cause I usually use it at the pull to get that shield up fast.

But, I didn't really care about survival in that fight. Tried to make sure to have SoTR up for every SB (should be at like 90% or sth) but other than that, I didn't really pay attention. My Crystall Shell didn't fall off once though. That one Spike you mentioned seems to have been a Quake Stomp + Snapping Bite in short succession. Could very well be that I misstimed my SoTR for that or just spammed it one too many at that time. And as long as my Shell doesn't fall off I don't really give a damn nowadays. Like I said, wake me uppppppp :-)

@ Nairobi: I didn't apply SS too often in this fight. I applied it 8 times and only when it dropped. Vengeance on Tortos is pretty constant and pretty low so recasting it mid-buff wasn't really necessary / needed. Need to find another excuse sadly ;(

@ FF: So you would say I need to try to fill those GCD I potentially wasted by trying to mash buttons even faster / or press the right button (anticipation as nairobi called it). Rotation and Spell to Spell Ratio is fine?

- - - Updated - - -

Remember that J has an effective base cooldown of 6.75 seconds if you are going for max HoPo regen, which would put your CD at 4.56 seconds.
The optimal ratio for CS:J is 1:0.66 or 3:2, whichever makes it easier for you.

Oh, did actually not know that. I just looked at wowhead (since i'm at work haha) at it shows 6 seconds cooldown.

So I guess that changes things:

S cd with 48% haste = 3,04 sec?
J cd with 48% haste = 4,56 sec?


261 sec / 3,04 sec = 85,86 CS
261 sec / 4,56 sec = 57,23 JS


--> 13,86 CS + 3,23 J that potentially have been lost


So I actually only lost 3 Judgements over the whole fight. Thats a number I can live with. Also shows that I prioritize J a little more than CS but thats usually what I feel that I actually tend to do.

Not sure thats good or bad though.

I didn't actually aim for anything. I just did what I do most of the time and I just wanted to see what that actually is that i do and if it is something that needs fixing.

On a fight like Raden I try to prioritize HP>all. But for normal fights like Tortos I just do what comes naturally to me

[Deleted]

@ FF: So you would say I need to try to fill those GCD I potentially wasted by trying to mash buttons even faster / or press the right button (anticipation as nairobi called it). Rotation and Spell to Spell Ratio is fine?

It is not always possible to fill those GCDs, if you are unlucky with GC procs, you will run into dead CDs, simple as that. Though on a fight like Tortos where he stuns you, it should not happen that often. Basically, the stun allows all your cds to refresh 1 second, which should be enough to eliminate a lot of the dead GCDs.

Spell to spell ratio seemed okay without overanalyzing it.

The thing with having 100% GCD usage, a lot of those GCDs becomes reapplying Consecration before it is over, or reapplying SS before actually needed. Say you run CS>J>AS>HW>HoW>T6>Cons>SS for a fight, you will never ever ever have a dead GCD, since even if CS, J, AS, HW, HoW and T6 are all on CD, you will always be able to either cast Cons or SS, though it is very possible that you are refreshing a 20 second SS for a new 30 second one.
So a lot of those GCDs used are not really that needed. Still, sometimes throwing in a Cons or a SS just for the sake of filling a dead GCD can be worth it, even if you are reapplying prematurely.

I am not a fan of reapplying SS though in current state simply because of the 1.5s GCD, reapplying SS early means I push back my entire rotation 0.5 seconds.

Having dead GCDs in a fight is okay, but should be very very very rare. Especially if fights includes artificial resets, i.e. times when you get stunned / cant use spells for whatever reason which allows your spells to reset, or fights when you got a ton of GC procs, in those circumstances you should never have dead GCDs (other then when you are stunned or out of range or whatever).

[Promdates]

@GoAK usage: I haven't really looked if I used it - I just assumed that I did cause I usually use it at the pull to get that shield up fast.

World of Logs won't show you using GoAK at all. It's been bugged for prot for a while, it does show up when you're ret though because the guy does some damage.

[Deleted]

Oh, did actually not know that. I just looked at wowhead (since i'm at work haha) at it shows 6 seconds cooldown.

So I guess that changes things:

S cd with 48% haste = 3,04 sec?
J cd with 48% haste = 4,56 sec?


261 sec / 3,04 sec = 85,86 CS
261 sec / 4,56 sec = 57,23 JS


--> 13,86 CS + 3,23 J that potentially have been lost


So I actually only lost 3 Judgements over the whole fight. Thats a number I can live with. Also shows that I prioritize J a little more than CS but thats usually what I feel that I actually tend to do.

Not sure thats good or bad though.

I didn't actually aim for anything. I just did what I do most of the time and I just wanted to see what that actually is that i do and if it is something that needs fixing.

On a fight like Raden I try to prioritize HP>all. But for normal fights like Tortos I just do what comes naturally to me

The fact that you lost 3 J and 14 CS means that you prioritised J>CS on several occations. Not saying this is a bad thing. If it was a simply matter of GCD losses you would see a ratio of 14 CS missed and 9 J.

If you instead use a J>CS ratio, your J CD would be as you mentioned earlier 4.05s, but your CS CD would also be 4.05s CD

Which then would both have resulted in 64 usages through the entire fight, in which case you would still me -10 on J and +8 on CS
So if we check those seperately.

CS>J Prio

CS:-14 CS
J:-3 J

J>CS Pro

CS: +8 CS
J: -10 J



What this tells you is that while you are using J>CS sometimes, you are mostly using CS>J. This is totally fine, it seems about on par with what I would do on fights like these. A fairly common thing that happens on fights that allows your CDs to reset a bit, like Tortos quake stomp, is that when you come out of a stun with both J and CS off cooldown, you often use J>CS as opener, to fall into CS>J after. This is completely fine and also imo the correct thing to do.
That is also what I guess is happening, that you are using J>CS after the quake stomps, which would explain the ratio difference you have in CS and J.

In any circumstance where I got a few GC procs in a row, bosses run away so I cant hit them or whatever, basically whenever I know that I got both CS, J and 2-3 fillers to cast, I will almost always use J>CS as an opener. CS>J is only superior when you do not have fillers in handy, since if you use J>CS without many fillers you will run out of fillers, that is why I swap to J>CS for 1-3 cycles (depending on how many GC procs and fillers I have in handy) before falling back to CS>J whenever I can afford it.

Also, in the pull of any boss I always use J>CS for 1-3 cycles aswell to get all fillers rolling.

This also happens commonly when I know I am going to have to reapply SS or cast T6 talent, or both. Doing a
J>CS>SS>T6
J>CS>X>X
CS>J>X
is not too uncommon.

I have played around with different scenarios here when using LH/ES, since both got 1.5s GCD on live.

The previous mentioned route pushes back my rotation by about 0.9 seconds due to SS + T6 talent having 1.5s GCDs

In theory, the best possible thing to do is probably

J>CS>T6>X
J>CS>SS>X
CS>J>X

as that will put my first filler + T6 talent on cooldown faster meaning I can use them again faster. It still pushes back my rotation by 0.9 seconds as before.

The last option is going

J>CS>T6>wait 0.55s
J>CS>SS>wait 0.55s
J>CS>X>X
CS>J>X

This would have the benefit of not delaying my rotation at all, but I am not really a fan of delaying the rotation. Feels wrong. Maybe if you did a J>CS>X>X before the first J>CS>T6>wait, since that would allow your fillers to refresh.

I am a bit split here what i consider to be the best course of action, though come 5.4 if they go through with the scaling GCD on SS and T6 talents this is a non-issue.

Then going J>CS>X>X for 2-3 cycles whenever you need to cast SS and T6 talent makes sense, and just using SS and T6 as regular fillers, as they do not impact your rotation in the same way then.

[Nairobi]

WOL doesn't show YOUR GoAK.

And I wasn't implying your SS use was to blame, but rather providing an anecdote that it was causing MY #'s to suffer (due to trying to game higher SS values with V/trinket procs too often).

While you may not be able to hit them faster in terms of actual keystroke, what I meant, and what I think you understand but will repeat for others, is that you can shave time off by hitting the NEXT button you should be using faster. IE if you're starting your cycle, and you just hit CS, as SOON as your CS finger lifts, you should be hitting your J button. As soon as J lifts, you should be hitting AS, etc etc.


Edit: very much agree with this though, as I have sort of slumped into lethargy this late in the tier. I CBA to even change glyphs/talents most clears, don't care about trying to help with throwing utility heals/saves as much, etc. Nitpicking is really all we can do, and it's needed to keep the game interesting. I know they're putting out content faster than ever, but man...just seems so slow right now

[Brael]

If one of you guys who're used to WoL could take a look at our Durumu kill last week, (Only real tank + spank boss sort of (even if you do have the walls on hc) so I often use it as a starting point to improve from), here's the log of me: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wxodp...=12702&e=13075 Just wanting to know what I can improve upon etc, I know I was absolutely horrible at Hard Stare AM which I was just being lazy with and mashing buttons but what about CS:J usage and GCD usage?

[Kethmil]

@FF: Yeah, im aware of that.

Im kinda new at "key binding". Used to be a clicker for a long time, couldnt get used to get all pala habilities binded and properly use them. So... i got myself a razer nostromo, where i've got some macroes programmed that help me in my rotation. Got most of the priority rotation (ie, cs > j > as > hw > cons) macroed to a single key, wich i mainly spam during the fight, minus those that you need to click "on demand" (taunt, sotr, loh, wog.. etc). Thing is that in the config i can swap to a "aoe status", where cons > hw and replaces cs with hotr. In that very combat changed for a sec to aoe so i would put debuf on durumu and forgot to swich back.

Im aware that im underperforming doing so, by not allowing myself to make decisions of delaying some milliseconds next spell so it would be a hopo generator instead of a filler, but what the heck, it works for me, and allows me to pay much more attention to what happens around me. I play A LOT my habilities with my fellow raid members, via loh, hands and such + use to raid lead.

And wtf? Cons clips if you cast a new one within those 9 secs? fucking shit, thought that both damaged together. Guess i will change my aoe rotation so hw > cons, so it doesnt clip.

[Nobleshield]

As an aside, keybinds are always an annoying thing to me, mostly because there's IMO too many. I think I have four full bars of keybinds.

[Promdates]

Consecration kinda acts like a ticking dot. If you cast another one while the first is still ticking, it will apply the missing tick to the second one. Theck did some testing on it, and showed it acting that way. He did note that under the effects of Bloodlust/Heroism, it seemed to act semi-wonky.

So it looks like Cons does obey standard DoT rules - it will preserve the current tick and add 9 ticks to it. Unfortunately, I don't have a good way to model this attrition easily in the code yet. In practice it means that during Heroism, you should probably treat Cons as if it still had a 9-second cooldown.

Honestly, it's probably the ability that I hit the least, especially at higher levels of haste you're hitting CS/J/AS/HW more often... especially under bloodlust/heroism I have trouble doing anything other than CS/J/AS.

[pld]

As an aside, keybinds are always an annoying thing to me, mostly because there's IMO too many. I think I have four full bars of keybinds.

Investing in an MMO mouse was really helpful for me. Gives you a ton of extra keys to work with. But seriously, how do you have so many keybinds? FOUR bars? Do we even have that many abilities?

Hmm, just realized you and PD were from the same server.

[Promdates]

Hmm, just realized you and PD were from the same server.

Yeah, too bad he's a stinky alliance scum :P Actually, he's in probably one of our oldest guilds on the server, I had some friends who raided in Aeon back in BC.

[pld]

I've played Alliance since I started the game back in Classic.
I would switch over to horde just so I can go either blood elf or tauren. Transmogs just look better on horde toons.

Im aware that im underperforming doing so, by not allowing myself to make decisions of delaying some milliseconds next spell so it would be a hopo generator instead of a filler, but what the heck, it works for me, and allows me to pay much more attention to what happens around me. I play A LOT my habilities with my fellow raid members, via loh, hands and such + use to raid lead.

Spend some time on a training dummy just going through your rotation over and over. It might feel awkward and clunky at first, but just keep doing it for 15-20 mins every day before raid and you'll start developing muscle memory. It's probably going to take some time since you were a long-time clicker, but it'll benefit you greatly in the long run. Once your rotation becomes second nature, it won't be difficult to incorporate your other abilities (such as Hands, Devo Aura, etc.) while in action.

[Deleted]

Investing in an MMO mouse was really helpful for me. Gives you a ton of extra keys to work with. But seriously, how do you have so many keybinds? FOUR bars? Do we even have that many abilities?

Having 40+ keybinds is not even an issue, if you start including some extra stuff like special macros for certain bosses etc, getting four full bars seems rather plausible.

I have almost 4 full bars of "useful" binds for fights, but then I have a fifth bar with stuff I rarely use but sometimes switch in, like mass res, SoR, SoT, FoL, Professions, On-use trinkets, some odd macros. So I have 5 bars of stuff out, but only 4 is keybinded and useful or fights, about 3 bars are shit I use on every fight.

[Promdates]

I only "use" 21 keybinds on the paladin, and probably 23-24 on the monk. Outside of those, there isn't really much to use. I'm sure I could find a few keybinds for like Hands or random macros, but some of the 21 KB's are random macros.

[Deleted]

I only "use" 21 keybinds on the paladin, and probably 23-24 on the monk. Outside of those, there isn't really much to use. I'm sure I could find a few keybinds for like Hands or random macros, but some of the 21 KB's are random macros.

How can you only have 21 binds?

If I just go through my bars

J,CS,Reckoning, WoG, SS, AD, LoH, DS+DS cancel aura in one, Blind Light, SotR, HotR, AS - 1 bar 12 binds
FoJ, HoSac, HW, HoW, Cons, BoP, Speed of Light, Rebuke, Aura Mastery, right there it is 21 binds

So after 21 binds, I also got.

GoAK, DP, SoI, SoT, SoR (Though I have currently for a few days replaced my SoT and SoR binds with cooking and cooking fire since I barely ever use them)
/sit macro, HoF, AW, HoSalv, Strength Pot, Elixir of the Rapids, Elixir of the Mantid, Salyin Battle-Banner, War Horn, Cleanse, L90 talent, BoM, BoK, Self casted BoP with cancel aura macro, all in one cancel aura macro (cancels all hands + any possible buff that I would want to dispel for whatever reason), RF + Cancel RF macro in one, Resurrection, One open spot for on-use trinket (havent used this in a while, but used it for Lao-Chins back in T14. FoL

Now I also got a few /focus macros and stuff but not gonna add those, granted that stuff like having Resurection, RF, Elixirs etc binded is not really needed, but I dont see how 21 binds is even possible as I got 45 things binded already, not counting specific macros, mounts (yes I am lazy), professions (I just said I was lazy).

I feel like a minimum of 30 binds is needed to cover are basic core stuff, like our rotation + CDS + all our support abilities.

[Promdates]

LoH, Blinding Light, SoI/SoT/SoR, sit macro, Salv, elixirs, banner, war horn, BoM/BoK, RF+Cancel, Res are all keybinds you can actually get rid of. To be honest, I've never used LoH, Blinding Light, changed my seal, sit macro, hands, or any of that stuff in an actual fight. Chances are, if you're UI is setup right, the only things out of that I would ever consider keybinding would be LoH and Hands, the rest aren't worthy of a KB. At some point, you KB the essentials, and the rest isn't really needed. Cause honestly, how often are you ACTUALLY swapping seals on a fight? Is that really worthy of a KB?

I hope you're planning on never using that /sit macro again, and to be honest... it's very worthless. I've never used the /sit thing and have had 0 problems getting high ranks on fights.

[Nobleshield]

Yeah, too bad he's a stinky alliance scum :P Actually, he's in probably one of our oldest guilds on the server, I had some friends who raided in Aeon back in BC.

Well it changed leadership at least once, because I know Mangling wasn't the guild leader when I knew him as we were in a different guild, and most of the members now in our group were in the other guild (which jumped ship to Horde. Apathy/Sympathy, when they decided to not be casual and be hardcore by recruiting off-server and letting our team, which was the original raid group, become the B-team. Lots of drama then). I only recently came back Alliance on my Paladin. It was actually the fiancee of Noportforyou (if you know/knew him) and her sister who recruited me to Turalyon when I was looking for a new server at the end of Wrath.

I have... let's see.. 36 keybinds. Three full bars.