[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[sleepy67]

How do you check WoL for when the Tank cloak procs and saves them from death?

[Riemu2k3]

"Endurance of Niuzao" is the Debuff / Spell name

[Nillo]

Yeah but then again, the dps cloak is probably not needed also :-)

This week of Cape Procs on our kills (cba to check whipes)
- Juggernaut: 2 times
- Shamans: 1 time
- Nazgrim: 1 time
- Malkorok: 1 time my co-tank
- Spoils: 1 time my co-tank
- Thok: 1 time my co-tank
- Siegecrafter: 2 times my co-tank

Without the cape, those kills would have been whipes in most cases.
That might just be us being bad or bad luck or someone else (like healers) fucking up, but that's exactly what the tank cape is there for.

Agreed, you don't need it on every fight (Immerseus for example is such a fight). But unless I don't really need to damage, I will always stick with the tank cloak.

Let's see:
Juggernaut - I died at 9 stacks which is more than twice as much as you should ever have iirc so ehhh don't think it's needed (that was 300k dot ticks => cape wouldn't have helped anyway)
Shaman: Agree they're a bitch.
Nazgrim: Uhm... nope
Malkorok: Nope?
Spoils: I died to overpulls once but cloak won't do much in that situation on top of that the dps cloak is really noticable with all those adds here.
Thok: Yeah definitely worth it here
Siegecrafter: Is there anything other than the very predictable shock damage and softenrages that could threaten a tank?

[Promdates]

It's under "Buff's Gained" tab, listed under debuffs as "Endurance of Niuzao"

[Deleted]

Well, I cant speak for 25 man, but 10 man tanking has shifted from tank damage being completely trivial to you actually having to care a bit. Before seeing the SoO bosses I was advocating crit after haste cap. Now, going for mastery is a no-brainer for me. Getting a bit of mastery after haste cap is going to be amazing.

Therefor, what people said before 5.4 and what they say now is completely different, as they were basing their previous opinions on how tanking looked in 5.2.
Tanking changed, so did our opinions.

[Deleted]

If you choose to use the DPS cloak on those encounters, that's your decision. The problem was people were making it out to be that the cloak will make or break their kills, while as Riemu2k3 mentioned people forget about their actual progression. Perhaps 10m is drastically different than 25 in that tank damage is marginal and doesn't matter, just like it did in ToT... or perhaps it's because you're 550 ilvl and overgear the current content already.

Okay, I see you don't want to stop acting like a retard.
So I will better start ignoring you.
So I won't hurt your "oh-my-bosses-melee-a-little-bit-harder-so-im-the-real-tank-here" ego.

Please do not insult other forum users. - Malthanis

[gerus]

Sadly, so many people are so narrowminded about tanking they can only see black and white in our magical tanking rainbow.

I think this is indeed sad. It's unfortunate but T15 really had a hard emphasis on personal tank DPS as a paladin because you could essentially guarantee your survivability increased at the same rate as your DPS (or perhaps better) given class + encounter mechanics. This caused some generally anti damage mitigation things to be said in the name of damage mitigation (the 4% DPS gain on my legendary meta gem will outweigh the net 15% damage reduction of the tank one comes to mind). There was nothing interesting about stacking haste and then standing in the bad with GoaK up and refreshing SS at high vengence levels. We had no tradeoffs whatsoever in the spectrum of personal DPS v damage mitigation.

The way that haste and mastery interact may have some interesting things with our stat priority that may actually lead to some interesting and nuanced choices in T16 on just the mitigation end. We may have some very interesting choices to make between survivability and DPS (which is probably where the AM model of class design belongs). It'll be fun to see it play out. What isn't fun is that people are still really stuck in 5.3 and T15 trenches and rather than coming up with fun ideas based upon the damage intake and vengence levels of this patch.

[pld]

Okay, I see you don't want to stop acting like a retard.
So I will better start ignoring you.
So I won't hurt your "oh-my-bosses-melee-a-little-bit-harder-so-im-the-real-tank-here" ego.

I think he's raising a valid point that 25m tank dmg might be higher than 10m tank dmg. I didn't get any sense of ego from his comment.

As a 10m tank who did a 20m flex last night, I can see how that might be the case. Flex was fairly faceroll and I don't think I ever got close to dying (with the dps cloak), but I did notice that the bosses hit harder than expected.

[Deleted]

I think he's raising a valid point that 25m tank dmg might be higher than 10m tank dmg. I didn't get any sense of ego from his comment.

As a 10m tank who did a 20m flex last night, I can see how that might be the case. Flex was fairly faceroll and I don't think I ever got close to dying (with the dps cloak), but I did notice that the bosses hit harder than expected.

Obviously they do hit harder. They have to hit harder, so it won't be a complete joke.
It is simply a completely different play-field. You can't keep the tank-damage the same while having 2.5x as many healers. And saying that the tank damage in 10m is marginal, just because is on 25m they hit 20-30% harder is a huge hyperbole.

I could be an ass, and start telling 25m off, as they can cover personal mistakes easier, say that tank performance doesn't matters there as the healers will cover it up, but I don't want to fall that low.

[Deleted]

Okay, I see you don't want to stop acting like a retard.
So I will better start ignoring you.
So I won't hurt your "oh-my-bosses-melee-a-little-bit-harder-so-im-the-real-tank-here" ego.

I think you are reading his comment wrong. The key word in the part you emboldened was "Perhaps". He's not saying 10m damage is marginal, he's saying that he's writing from 25m experience and will give the benefit of the doubt to 10m raiders who insist the dps cloak is better for them. I read the "perhaps" as implying he thinks they are probably wrong.

Perhaps I am wrong in reading it this way ...

[Deleted]

I think you are reading his comment wrong. The key word in the part you emboldened was "Perhaps". He's not saying 10m damage is marginal, he's saying that he's writing from 25m experience and will give the benefit of the doubt to 10m raiders who insist the dps cloak is better for them. I read the "perhaps" as implying he thinks they are probably wrong.

Perhaps I am wrong in reading it this way ...

No, since he outright stated that it ToT the tank damage was neglible, I'm not inclined to think this way.

[Promdates]

No, since he outright stated that it ToT the tank damage was neglible, I'm not inclined to think this way.

You clearly read it all wrong. I did not say that ToT incoming tank damage was a joke. That was something that most people stated, and that I had repeatedly argued was not the case. Once you over geared the content, perhaps then incoming tank damage was considerably lower, but when you were actually progressing at the proper or even under geared level it was important.

I could be an ass, and start telling 25m off, as they can cover personal mistakes easier, say that tank performance doesn't matters there as the healers will cover it up, but I don't want to fall that low.

You can go ahead and do so. You would be wrong in both of those situations though. I'm not sure if you've ever done 25's, but personal mistakes weren't any easier to cover up (ask anyone who did heroic lei shen or heroic animus). Tank performance did make a difference, as often times the incidental raid damage could make a difference and cause healers to switch focus at the wrong times. Just because there was 5-6 healers didn't mean that you could play worse.

For the record, I did do 10 man content last tier, and will continue to do 10 man content on one of my other tanks for T16. There is a difference between the content, each have their own issues at different points (10 animus was more difficult compared to 25, and 25 lei shen was more difficult than 10 for example).

[sleepy67]

"Endurance of Niuzao" is the Debuff / Spell name

- - - Updated - - -

It's under "Buff's Gained" tab, listed under debuffs as "Endurance of Niuzao"

Thanks for the answer.

[hashtags]

Any tips on how to use EF effectively. I feel like most of my EF ticks generally are over heals. I am pretty sure I am not using them right.

[Pickwickman]

No, since he outright stated that it ToT the tank damage was neglible, I'm not inclined to think this way.

No matter how you turn it, it actually was. And this is what were busy proving here, whether it is beneficial to use the DPS cloak or not, and incoming damage is a big, if not the GREATEST part of that equation.

Don't feel threatened, Hell the man explicitly stated <troll> just to shut easily offended people up.

Moreover, promdate is a frequent poster here, and he brings a refreshing insight in 25man tanking, something some of us haven't really done since far back in WotLK.

On topic though, I love my Tank LMG, but so far, except for the aforementioned fights where one mistake costs you 70% of your HP, there is no reason to hardswitch to the tankcloak. But thankfully we can carry both around and near all of us can feel which boss will need the tank cloak, just by looking at the damage values on Normal mode.

- - - Updated - - -

Any tips on how to use EF effectively. I feel like most of my EF ticks generally are over heals. I am pretty sure I am not using them right.

They should be overhealing. EF usage, without 4p, just requires you to have a 5bastion empowered EF on you for as long as possible. The main thing that decides that is your haste.

For a bit more advanced EF usage, I check if a big hit a la Tripple puncture is coming, prepare a SotR and bomb myself with a big vengeance boosted EF. If you pull it off, it is pretty cool and intuitive after an hour or two.

Also, please, don't refresh EF too eagerly, last HoT tick is the best spot.

In order of importance, for me, until 4p:
1. 5 Bastion stacks & 3HP
2. High vengeance
3. Incoming close-future damage

[hashtags]

Thanks for the reply. I think what I really need to do is to have a weak aura indicating when is the good time to use EF.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Yeah but then again, the dps cloak is probably not needed also :-)

This week of Cape Procs on our kills (cba to check whipes)
- Juggernaut: 2 times
- Shamans: 1 time
- Nazgrim: 1 time
- Malkorok: 1 time my co-tank
- Spoils: 1 time my co-tank
- Thok: 1 time my co-tank
- Siegecrafter: 2 times my co-tank

Without the cape, those kills would have been whipes in most cases.
That might just be us being bad or bad luck or someone else (like healers) fucking up, but that's exactly what the tank cape is there for.

Agreed, you don't need it on every fight (Immerseus for example is such a fight). But unless I don't really need to damage, I will always stick with the tank cloak.

And if you think about that in time saved, you can reckon on maybe 7 minutes per wipe (5 minutes for the boss kill that could have been + 2 minutes to corpserun and reset) that is 63 minutes of raid time saved by having the cloak. That is just over an hour of progression time on later bosses because you had the tank cloak. Think how much more damage the dps cloak would have to provide to clear the bosses you killed an hour faster. I guarantee you that 400 haste rating and a ~2% total damage increase from the proc wouldn't do that.

[Pickwickman]

Thanks for the reply. I think what I really need to do is to have a weak aura indicating when is the good time to use EF.

One which you can use to start out with is thecks weakauras. You can find them at sacredduty.net, a fair warning though, it might seem cluttered for some people, just delete the parts of the set that you don't/won't use, like the cooldown trackers etc.

[gerus]

And if you think about that in time saved, you can reckon on maybe 7 minutes per wipe (5 minutes for the boss kill that could have been + 2 minutes to corpserun and reset) that is 63 minutes of raid time saved by having the cloak. That is just over an hour of progression time on later bosses because you had the tank cloak. Think how much more damage the dps cloak would have to provide to clear the bosses you killed an hour faster. I guarantee you that 400 haste rating and a ~2% total damage increase from the proc wouldn't do that.

This is really where I think the value lies in the cloak. I don't care if my healers totally failed in keeping me up or if I died. If we have to run back and rebuff because I died and the cloak was setting in my bag, I've cost the raid more time than the 4% DPS increase. My time is a much more precious raid resource than my personal DPS.

[Aceshigh]

And if you think about that in time saved, you can reckon on maybe 7 minutes per wipe (5 minutes for the boss kill that could have been + 2 minutes to corpserun and reset) that is 63 minutes of raid time saved by having the cloak. That is just over an hour of progression time on later bosses because you had the tank cloak. Think how much more damage the dps cloak would have to provide to clear the bosses you killed an hour faster. I guarantee you that 400 haste rating and a ~2% total damage increase from the proc wouldn't do that.

I think this is something that MANY people overlook, time spent and time saved. If this saves you even 2 wipes a night, even if they are just big mistakes (we all make them or have someone in our raid make them including those who post about "deaths shouldn't happen to physical dmg with SoTR etc) that's a lot of time saved simply from using the cloak. The bosses in the start of the isntances are complete pushovers in my group because of gear, lots of 1shots on progression in the first half, but you can believe that come this week that tank cloak is going on me pretty much at all times. It WILL save my group more time than the DPS cloak will.