1. #1801
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I'd love to see logs on that one.
    Sadly our GM forgot to log that week due to his log file being to big. He didnt start logging until Malkorok that week.

    But I do have a 4.5 minute wipe with 1 tank as the other tank died. That was the week before when we realised how easily doable it is.
    The reason we wiped was that our healers wanted to try 2 healing Protectors, it almost work but in the end they could not keep the raid up. With the gear we got now they would be able to do it I think

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2011&e=2270

    There is that wipe, it is a not exactly a kill with 1 tank, but kinda proves it is easily doable. If we had a third healer as you usually have we would have killed it that wipe.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #1802
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sadly our GM forgot to log that week due to his log file being to big. He didnt start logging until Malkorok that week.

    But I do have a 4.5 minute wipe with 1 tank as the other tank died. That was the week before when we realised how easily doable it is.
    The reason we wiped was that our healers wanted to try 2 healing Protectors, it almost work but in the end they could not keep the raid up. With the gear we got now they would be able to do it I think.
    Well, 3 healing in 10man is about the same as taking 7-8 healers in 25man. We never took more than 6 so far.
    Also, you are throwing Mark of Anguish on tanks, that's kinda retarded, given that -90% armor debuff persists for 4 minutes on heroic.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
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  3. #1803
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    Well, 3 healing in 10man is about the same as taking 7-8 healers in 25man. We never took more than 6 so far.
    Also, you are throwing Mark of Anguish on tanks, that's kinda retarded, given that -90% armor debuff persists for 4 minutes on heroic.
    Yeah, you still use 3 healers on a lot of fights in 10 man as you do not really have the option to bring 2.5 healers. Sometimes it is better bringing 3 healers and having 2 of them to push as much damage as possible rather than bringing 2 and having dps heal on the healing.

    I would not compare 3 healing in 10 man to using 8 healers in 25 man. It is closer to using 6 healers imo. Using 3 healers + an off healing dps is closer to 7-8 healers.
    You can ask any 10 man guild there, 3 man healing happens on certain fights, protectors is one of them. It makes the fight significantly easier as the dps is not an issue. We use 2 healers on most fights, but using 2 healers in 10 is kinda like using 4-5 in 25 man tbh. Using 3 is more like using 6-7. As I mentioned, 3 healer s pushing DPS is often more benefitial than 2 struggling to keep the raid alive.

    It is 80% debuff, and you once again raid 25 man. 10 man boss damage is... We rather have 80% armor debuff on the He tank as he doesnt do that much damage than having it on a dps that may get garrote on him. The tank with the armor debuff is not tanking that much anyway as he tanks He and Gloom, neither of which hurts much.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, you still use 3 healers on a lot of fights in 10 man as you do not really have the option to bring 2.5 healers. Sometimes it is better bringing 3 healers and having 2 of them to push as much damage as possible rather than bringing 2 and having dps heal on the healing.

    I would not compare 3 healing in 10 man to using 8 healers in 25 man. It is closer to using 6 healers imo. Using 3 healers + an off healing dps is closer to 7-8 healers.
    You can ask any 10 man guild there, 3 man healing happens on certain fights, protectors is one of them. It makes the fight significantly easier as the dps is not an issue. We use 2 healers on most fights, but using 2 healers in 10 is kinda like using 4-5 in 25 man tbh. Using 3 is more like using 6-7. As I mentioned, 3 healer s pushing DPS is often more benefitial than 2 struggling to keep the raid alive.

    It is 80% debuff, and you once again raid 25 man. 10 man boss damage is... We rather have 80% armor debuff on the He tank as he doesnt do that much damage than having it on a dps that may get garrote on him. The tank with the armor debuff is not tanking that much anyway as he tanks He and Gloom, neither of which hurts much.
    I'm pretty sure a lot of boss physical raid damage these days aren't affected by armor so that there isn't a large disparity in raid damage between a clothy and a plate wearer, so getting the armor debuff on the raid will not change Garrote damage in any way, as you can see below.
    Code:
    [18:49:10.399] Rivsy afflicted by Debilitation
    [18:49:14.451] Xaaw afflicted by Debilitation
    [18:49:37.758] Roro afflicted by Debilitation
    [18:49:49.008] Megoth afflicted by Debilitation
    ...
    [18:52:49.501] He Softfoot Garrote Pananoz 97200
    [18:52:49.843] He Softfoot Garrote  Døzo 97200
    [18:52:50.269] He Softfoot Garrote Roro 97200
    ...
    [18:54:58.677] Unknown's Debilitation fades from Roro
    Last edited by Seahenar; 2013-10-15 at 04:50 PM. Reason: wording

  5. #1805
    Quote Originally Posted by Seahenar View Post
    I'm pretty sure a lot of boss physical raid damage these days aren't affected by armor so that there isn't a large disparity in raid damage between a clothy and a plate wearer, so getting the armor debuff on the raid will not change Garrote damage in any way, as you can see below.
    Code:
    [18:49:10.399] Rivsy afflicted by Debilitation
    [18:49:14.451] Xaaw afflicted by Debilitation
    [18:49:37.758] Roro afflicted by Debilitation
    [18:49:49.008] Megoth afflicted by Debilitation
    ...
    [18:52:49.501] He Softfoot Garrote Pananoz 97200
    [18:52:49.843] He Softfoot Garrote  Døzo 97200
    [18:52:50.269] He Softfoot Garrote Roro 97200
    ...
    [18:54:58.677] Unknown's Debilitation fades from Roro
    Yeah, garrote is maybe not affected by the armor, that is true. Never bothered checking it really. Dropping the ball to the tank is still rather easy as the tank can take high stacks without too much worry.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #1806
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, garrote is maybe not affected by the armor, that is true. Never bothered checking it really. Dropping the ball to the tank is still rather easy as the tank can take high stacks without too much worry.
    Not to mention that is much easier for a tank to take high stacks than it is for a lot of dps; some of that goes to the class and tools available to the dps, and some of it goes to the skill of the player, but regardless, it's much more likely to result in a dead dps than a dead tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  7. #1807
    Blademaster LuisKA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It is 80% debuff, and you once again raid 25 man. 10 man boss damage is... We rather have 80% armor debuff on the He tank as he doesnt do that much damage than having it on a dps that may get garrote on him. The tank with the armor debuff is not tanking that much anyway as he tanks He and Gloom, neither of which hurts much.
    Once again, you make it out to be like bosses in 25 hit for a fuckton and in 10 they wave marshmellows to your face. With the armor debuff on He, I take unmitigated autoattacks that burn 95% of my whole life down (and thats a million hp). Say bosses do 30% less damage at best in 10 man. Thats still ~700k damage autoattacks.

    You don't have much of a problem because your He tank is a monk with already low armor not depending on it to mitigate, but its a death wish otherwise.

  8. #1808
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Not to mention that is much easier for a tank to take high stacks than it is for a lot of dps; some of that goes to the class and tools available to the dps, and some of it goes to the skill of the player, but regardless, it's much more likely to result in a dead dps than a dead tank
    You don't need your dps to take high stacks though - you have plenty of dps to pass it around instead of just 1-2 tanks.

  9. #1809
    Quote Originally Posted by LuisKA View Post
    Once again, you make it out to be like bosses in 25 hit for a fuckton and in 10 they wave marshmellows to your face. With the armor debuff on He, I take unmitigated autoattacks that burn 95% of my whole life down (and thats a million hp). Say bosses do 30% less damage at best in 10 man. Thats still ~700k damage autoattacks.

    You don't have much of a problem because your He tank is a monk with already low armor not depending on it to mitigate, but its a death wish otherwise.
    I honestly dont know what bosses hit in 25 man. Going from what 25 man tanks on these forums make it out to be I make the guess that they hit for a fuckton. If they dont, please correct me. There has been 2 bosses so far in 10 man that had significant melee hits. That was siegecrafter heroic and garrosh normal (and I guess heroic aswell). Other than that I have not really felt any 10 man boss hitting hard with melee hits.

    And yes, we have a monk tank on He, which is one of the reasons that we can throw the armor debuff on him. We are not throwing it on me. Having a monk tank makes it extra viable.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #1810
    Ya on one of our first attempts I was minding my own business and then I got oneshot by Rook.
    That debuff on a pally is like 100% more damage taken while on a monk it's around 30% ~

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, garrote is maybe not affected by the armor, that is true. Never bothered checking it really. Dropping the ball to the tank is still rather easy as the tank can take high stacks without too much worry.
    Pretty sure bleeds (physical dots) were never affected by armor anyway.
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  11. #1811
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Ya on one of our first attempts I was minding my own business and then I got oneshot by Rook.
    That debuff on a pally is like 100% more damage taken while on a monk it's around 30% ~[/COLOR]
    Yeah, would never throw it to the rook tank. Rook be da ook ook.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #1812
    Quote Originally Posted by Seahenar View Post
    You don't need your dps to take high stacks though - you have plenty of dps to pass it around instead of just 1-2 tanks.
    You shouldn't need to, no, but sometimes...

    What we typically do is, anyone who gets it first takes it a bit, then passes it to our monk (WW), who'll take it for a fairly long time, and once he can't take it any longer, pass it to the He tank. We tend to have issues if people try to pass it off to other dps, because our dps doesn't pay attention to who's had it before, which was our biggest cause of wipes the first night - it'd get passed around, and then end up on a dps who'd already taken him before, and had stacks, and no more cds, and died as soon as he got to them. By passing it in this very specific order, it works out and nobody dies as a result, and our He tank still doesn't take much damage.

    And for clarity, our He tank is a DK.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Pretty sure bleeds (physical dots) were never affected by armor anyway.
    Right, bleeds have never been affected by armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  13. #1813
    We have never thrown it on our other tank, we end up putting it on our arms warr in defensive stance and i just apply back to back hand of sacs (clemancy). We thought about putting it on our tank but our raid team has a lot of derp so just figured we would do it like intended.

  14. #1814
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evoix View Post
    We have never thrown it on our other tank, we end up putting it on our arms warr in defensive stance and i just apply back to back hand of sacs (clemancy). We thought about putting it on our tank but our raid team has a lot of derp so just figured we would do it like intended.
    Do you know that you can use immunities on a marked player?
    We tend to just throw mark around hunters (we have 3 of them) who pop Deterrence, then to 2 holy paladins who bubble themselves. If it's still not dead by that time, there are 2 shadowpriests, a rogue, ret paladin and couple of mages who take it. Damage taken from mark is almost non-existant that way. Well, there's aoe, but people themselves never die. And we usually HoP the first target of the mark, so that player doesnt instantly die from unlucky crit from Anguish melee attacks.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  15. #1815
    So quick question. As a haste build prot paladin, do i stop at 45% haste (50% raid buffed) or 50% unbuffed?
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  16. #1816
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheekun View Post
    So quick question. As a haste build prot paladin, do i stop at 45% haste (50% raid buffed) or 50% unbuffed?
    50% unbuffed. 21250 rating.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #1817
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    50% unbuffed. 21250 rating.
    50% unbuffed by lower amount of actual haste if you have thok's tip
    And need to look at melee haste.

  18. #1818
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    And need to look at melee haste.
    Wait why..?
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    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  19. #1819
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Wait why..?
    Well, certainly not at spell haste.
    ( There was a guy not long ago who did that... if I remember correctly. )

  20. #1820
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Wait why..?
    Sanctity of Battle scales with melee haste, not spell haste.
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