1. #1941
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    For your garrosh last try, 4use of DP, with 2p, is a waste. Only 1 AD. In 10min.

    You really should "scumbag" tank this fight since you have a warrior co tank.
    he takes adds, you take garrosh all the P1, and cleave on adds (and even if you get some on you, just pop a CD : GoAK or AD, or both if you get 2waves + boss on you) because with your high vengeance, your cleave will help get them down, your warrior will pick up easily the rest because he isn't pursued by a massive troop, and it increases your DPS and your DDs single damage on boss, which is important.

    As for p2, you can tank boss 10-12sec before whirlwind, with GoaK/AD +/- AOE trink right before it, and DP the 3rd + 4th right after to still take 4stacks easily after whirlwind, this way, you'll get insane DPS on boss. Be sure to bank 5HoPo before whirlwind ends to SotR back to back for his melees since your healers are moving.

    34% uptime of SotR is too low for this fight with high melee damage. I wouldn't glyph DP to keep loads of magical debuff and stay in whirlwind.

    With your aggro, some whirlwind adds will come to you because of EF+high vengeance. So, keep the boss until all ranged adds are delat with, during which your warrior tank can taunt and kill 1-2 adds on you, and when he takes boss back, you can OS them easy

    Thank you very much for the tips and tricks, will definatly keep that in mind, I guess I just have to be more vary of my cds and 34% uptime on SotR is very low even for me. Thanks for the tip on the DP glyph aswell!

  2. #1942
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafiesto View Post
    Thank you very much for the tips and tricks, will definatly keep that in mind, I guess I just have to be more vary of my cds and 34% uptime on SotR is very low even for me. Thanks for the tip on the DP glyph aswell!
    Some of the advice is very questionable/lacking though !:
    For example aggroing the Whirlwind adds can and should be avoided by having a macro with /cancelaura Righteous Fury.
    And you really shouldn't have to use cds other than unglyphed DP for the WW plus 4 stacks of the dot. (3+ HP for when it finishes is still advisable though)
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  3. #1943
    4p gives free EF @3stacks of BoG. I reached 37% without trying too hard on norushen hc (because fight mechanics are more important than maximum dps since enrage isn't an issue now), so aside from my misquoting duration, trust me it's not difficult to keep it up.

    It only takes a tiny detail : never refresh EF when DivPurpose buff is up, it won't consume the proc (because free EF you can cast even @0 HoPo) and thus waste a potential proc.

    oh, logs in case people think I'm just blabering : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/2sxbp...?s=3490&e=3874

    On other fights, due to tank swaps, closing rifts, slacking on galakras to let my warrior co-tank have fun, uptime isn't relevant there

    Edit for garrosh adds:
    Yeah, that's the way we handle them, and we find it easy, feel free to disagree and manage them the way that works best for you!

    Cd usage is because we have 2disc priest and they DPS adds so I'm on my own, and don't need them at other moments.
    Last edited by metasaigneur; 2013-10-25 at 01:49 PM.

  4. #1944
    High Overlord Dastuross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lackluster View Post
    Gear looks fine. Personally I'm not sure how Glyph of WOG compares to final wrath or focussed shield though. I'd like to know how many WoG one needs to do before the glyph outperforms final wrath single target.

    Had a quick look at your malkorok log as it's as close to a tank-and-spank we're gonna get.

    Few things, looking mainly at buffs gained and uptimes for that fight:
    4 DP uses, could have used it 8 times. Not a big deal though, after all you're not tanking him all the time.
    Some pretty big (20 second) gaps in your eternal flame coverage though, should never be necessary at your haste level. It shows in the healing done where I did 30k more HPS than you with similar overhealing. This difference is almost entirely Eternal Flame.
    Personally I use Divine Purpose here and plan on doing so until my guild has me soaking blood rages. With almost exactly the same haste as you this had my SotR uptime at 77% last week compared to 55% for you. Although Divine Purpose alone isn't responsible for this difference in SotR uptime, it's a major factor.
    In my opinion unless the fight necessitates the extra cooldown that you get with HA, DP is the superior choice.

    CS/J usage is 1.4, should be 1.5 so slightly heavy on the judgement for optimum HP generation. It's okay if you're doing this on purpose for more dps.
    On average you did a CS (and 1 HotR for no reason :P) every 3.87 seconds compared to my 3.45 seconds.
    Judgement, you did one every 5.1 seconds, I did every 4.9 seconds.
    You can definitely clean up your rotation a bit and squeeze out more holy power.

    I could look at the rest of your fights but those tend to vary more wildly between attempts and strategies.

    The T16 2pc I have found is really underwhelming and does nothing compared to the healing from your seal and eternal flame. If your offpieces are better I'd keep using them until you get the 4 piece. If you don't care for the 4 piece then I wouldn't use the 2 piece either and probably only use tier gloves (or warforged immerseus ones). Personally I quite like the 4piece, it's 6 holy power per minute if you keep your EF up. Even more if you recast it earlier (and you can, 5 BoG stacks shouldn't take you 30 seconds).
    thanks for the help, this helps a ton, i'll get working on everything you said.

  5. #1945
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Glyph lasts 6 sec, in order to have 30-40% uptime on it you need to be refreshing it every 18 or sec.
    Unless you manage to get 5 stacks of bastion during that period i don't see a point in refreshing it.
    (P.S. even 40% uptime != msot of the time)
    Oh there's a point in refreshing early, 25% chance of getting a free SotR out of Divine Purpose.
    Wouldn't do that if the current EF on you was cheesed with extremely high vengeance of course.

  6. #1946
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackluster View Post
    Oh there's a point in refreshing early, 25% chance of getting a free SotR out of Divine Purpose.
    Wouldn't do that if the current EF on you was cheesed with extremely high vengeance of course.
    It is only worth it if you have the 4p, but really dont know why you would have the 4p tbh. 2p is solid but 4p is just wasted secondary stats. Not to mention that you should be passing conqueror tokens to everyone and their grandma.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #1947
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It is only worth it if you have the 4p, but really dont know why you would have the 4p tbh. 2p is solid but 4p is just wasted secondary stats. Not to mention that you should be passing conqueror tokens to everyone and their grandma.
    On the one hand I agree that other classes (locks/sp freaking retarded OP set bonuses) benefit from token more than us, but on the other hand, there's nothing wrong coining for tokens and aiming for the 4p imo.

    Since the EF play has been in the picture, I found always painful to lose a SotR (on hard hitting bosses like garrosh, jugger, thok..) "just" to refresh my EF, EVEN when the initial heal was worth the GCD (which I tried to maximise ofc). With the 4pT16, I've seen a massive QoL improvement regarding the management of EF. Even if you disregard the glyph of WoG part, which is totally optionnal dps gain (and sometimes not possible due to required glyphs for specific fights), you can have SotR uptime gain also with DivPurp procs, given one is playing this talent (which I think one should with 4p, aside from boss requiring HA like malkorok and such, and even then, I would personnaly keep my 4p on).

    I mean, with legs as an off-piece, you got helm and gloves with haste, and shoulders + chest with expertise and mastery which are desirable stats, and doesn't prevent you from reaching haste cap.

    I acquired my 4p after our locks, and looted only 2tokens arguing my 2p was valuable (on which we seem to agree), coined the other 2. And trust me when I say I was relieved to have my 65-75% SotR back on track on bosses that you have 100% uptime on, instead of my 55-65% I had due to refreshing EF.

    Maybe this discussion would be better off in the protection guide section, but telling anyone who goes for 4p is wrong, that's kind of abrupt, and even if I always read your advice (and other frequent posters in this section) very carefully and learned a lot from this community, I must gently disagree with you .

    Besides, iirc, t15 4p was also disregarded by many at first, and desired by most in the end.

    Maybe you tried it and didn't find it was worthwhile to your play-style, your strategies, and team work with your tank team. But again, going for 4p is a valid choice and getting it shouldn't be fingered as bad play

    And since I try to defend the 4pt16, I have to say that if some of you might prefer to just stick with 2p (equipping helm+gloves), and WF offpieces with haste in all other slots, I am completely fine with this gearing strategy, which I find viable also!
    Keep the love going folks !

  8. #1948
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It is only worth it if you have the 4p, but really dont know why you would have the 4p tbh. 2p is solid but 4p is just wasted secondary stats. Not to mention that you should be passing conqueror tokens to everyone and their grandma.
    4piece saves you at least 6 holy power per minute (more if you recast EF early, which is actually beneficial with the 4 piece for the glyph and DP procs). How much Holy Power do you generate per minute, 30-35? That's a 17-20% increase in holy power generation. I don't think you'll get 20% more haste out of skipping the 4 set bonus.
    All this is even ignoring the secondary stats on the tier pieces and the effect recasting EF will have on Glyph of Word of Glory and Divine Purpose.
    Last edited by Lackluster; 2013-10-25 at 06:10 PM.

  9. #1949
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Maybe this discussion would be better off in the protection guide section, but telling anyone who goes for 4p is wrong, that's kind of abrupt, and even if I always read your advice (and other frequent posters in this section) very carefully and learned a lot from this community, I must gently disagree with you
    I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that going for 4p is wrong (nor correct for that matter). What I was saying that using EF for throughput DP procs is wrong unless you got the 4p already. To which I was implying that a lot of people do not have the 4p yet since they are most likely (or should be atleast) passing tokens to other classes, since while our set bonuses are not bad maybe, they are far weaker than any other conqueror class and spec and protection paladin should really have the lowest priority on conqueror tokens.

    Regarding the 4p, it is a nice bonus if you dont have any better off pieces. I would for sure not take say 4p in 553 gear over warforged / heroic off pieces. I still think that the 2p is miles stronger than the 4p atleast in 10 man. The 4p removes the opportunity cost of using EF, but I found that using 2p DP to cover the opportunity cost is great and has to me in my raid made the 4p useless to me. I also found, that especially in the later heroic using EF has been a lot about the initial heal rather than the HoT, which kinda defeats the throughput purpose of the 4p, as honestly, I could not see myself using EF on CD with 4p for the throughput on spoils/thok/siegecrafter/paragons or garrosh, and a lot of the earlier heroics for that matter, I would be gimping my survivability by a lot by doing so.
    To me the 4p holds merit for getting ranks on farm content while going for max dps throughput, but on progress you cant really use it that way.

    The only real fight that the 4p is effective on to me is Malkorok Heroic, but still totally not needed there. But there you can be spamming EF on CD without worrying to much. In my experience the opportunity cost of EF is also not really relevant if it is used properly on most fights where the tank damage is significant enough to care. Going into fights extremely undergeared as I have been this tier, + with pieces with subpar itemization, I have a lot of dodge/parry pieces now simply due to the armor and stamina that I need, I found that the need to have good off-pieces far outweighed the need for 4p to survive bosses like Paragons of the Klaxxi.

    The 4p also increases in value the less experienced you are at using EF and the less planning you put in to it. Fairly obvious that the opportunity cost of EF is higher the less planning and thought you put in it. Its kinda the old soft/hard cap expertise argument from T14, just without the RNG. The better you are at managing your HoPo and the more planning you put into EF, the less you will notice the cost of it.

    So I think it is completely fine to go for the 4p, just wanted to highlight that you should not be using EF for throughput if you dont have the 4p, and that you probably should not be taking 4p over anyone else in the group. It is probably not worth downgrading your item level in favor for 4p either, if you got higher item level off pieces use them. If you are an experienced player you also probably gain much more survivability from off pieces and 2p.

    The only use I can personally see for myself for the 4p is to get higher dps rankings, but wont do that until everything is on farm. I had the option to get 4p this week, but I instead chose to get the retribution tier legs for better itemization which helped me far more on Garrosh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lackluster View Post
    4piece saves you at least 6 holy power per minute (more if you recast EF early, which is actually beneficial with the 4 piece for the glyph and DP procs). How much Holy Power do you generate per minute, 30-35? That's a 17-20% increase in holy power generation. I don't think you'll get 20% more haste out of skipping the 4 set bonus.
    All this is even ignoring the secondary stats on the tier pieces and the effect recasting EF will have on Glyph of Word of Glory and Divine Purpose.
    If you are recasting EF every 30 seconds on every boss fight, you are doing it wrong and probably entirely wasting the effective heal of EF therefor gimping your survivability a lot. I am probably averaging on 40-60% uptime on EF.

    Also the point is that the throughput you are talking about does not really matter, as tanking is not a matter of throughput, rather dealing with the bursts of damage.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #1950
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If you are recasting EF every 30 seconds on every boss fight, you are doing it wrong and probably entirely wasting the effective heal of EF therefor gimping your survivability a lot. I am probably averaging on 40-60% uptime on EF.

    Also the point is that the throughput you are talking about does not really matter, as tanking is not a matter of throughput, rather dealing with the bursts of damage.
    With the 4piece its very easy to have both very high EF uptime and a good EF ready when you need it. As amazing as the initial EF heal can be (who needs Lay on Hands, right), a strong ticking EF can help smooth the healing you require immensely. If shit really hits the fan before you can get a 3rd stack of bastion again then you've got your healthstone, healer cooldowns or even LoH.
    Last edited by Lackluster; 2013-10-26 at 12:58 PM.

  11. #1951
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackluster View Post
    With the 4piece its very easy to have both very high EF uptime and a good EF ready when you need it. As amazing as the initial EF heal can be (who needs Lay on Hands, right), a strong ticking EF can help smooth the healing you require immensely. If shit really hits the fan before you can get a 3rd stack of bastion again then you've got your healer cooldowns or even LoH.
    But honestly, what fight bar Malkorok Heroic does a high EF uptime really matter? Maybe for Iron Jugg HC too. Other than that I dont really see the gain.
    My average uptime for 13/14H farm was a bit over 35%, not because I cant have higher uptime, simply because there was absolutely no reason to have higher uptime, also risking not having 5 BoG stacs when you need it on the high tank damage fights, which basically means garrosh and paragons. Other fights with predictable damage bursts like siegecrafter, you use your EF like clockwork. The 4p would literally give nothing at all on siegecrafter heroic.

    But even on Malkorok you are only tanking half the time. But 4p is still nice since SotR uptime is really important on Malkorok.

    I can buy the use of the 4p for Malkorok, maybe for Iron Jugg and maybe for solo tanking Thok. Other than that, 4p is there to cover up for not managing your HoPo well and is not really any benefit on any other fight unless you screw up.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #1952
    I can't speak for some of the later heroics yet as we haven't progressed that far but in my experience a good EF takes care of a big chunk of the boss' autoattack damage leaving cooldowns and healing for the burst abilities. Even though burst damage is what is most dangerous, there's still the need for raw throughput and it's hard to argue with the amount of throughput EF offers.
    It's entirely possible that once we get to the really dangerous bosses I won't be able to take the risk of having a high EF uptime (although the 4pc mitigates a lot of that risk by offering you more SotR and more EF) but for now I think that our healers would agree that I'm getting some amazing selfheals out of this set.
    All in all l'm not trying to use it to cover up for mismanaging EF but rather as an opportunity for more EF and SotR. There's a risk involved but in my experience the risk is small enough and the reward is great.
    Last edited by Lackluster; 2013-10-25 at 07:29 PM.

  13. #1953
    Blademaster LuisKA's Avatar
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    You might as well dump EF if you are only using it for the WoG effect, and use SS.

    In my opinion, 4p is pretty sick, you just forget about having to rely on hp for EF, plus you can reach the GCD cap with it anyway.

  14. #1954
    Quote Originally Posted by LuisKA View Post
    You might as well dump EF if you are only using it for the WoG effect, and use SS.

    In my opinion, 4p is pretty sick, you just forget about having to rely on hp for EF, plus you can reach the GCD cap with it anyway.
    Yeah I'm sitting at 558 ilvl with the 4p and I have 48% haste unbuffed. Should be extremely easy to hit our haste cap even with 4p if I am that close with 558.

  15. #1955
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Yeah I'm sitting at 558 ilvl with the 4p and I have 48% haste unbuffed. Should be extremely easy to hit our haste cap even with 4p if I am that close with 558.
    That kinda depends on your drops though. I am sitting at 40% haste at 566 ilvl. RNG is a bitch. Every time an item drops it is worst in slot but still an upgrade since it is heroic/heroic WF. I just have to make what I got work, which has lead to some weird things this tier, including reforging down to 9-10 expertise on Siegecrafter HC and Paragons HC to get more mastery to be able to survive being undergeared (Had 543 ilvl when I started Siegecrafter and 561 at Paragons).
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #1956
    what am i doing wrong on garrosh, im tanking adds first phase and seem to be taking huge spikes of dmg during phase 2 and 3 from garrosh my guild is 2 healing with a monk and a paladin and my other tank is a bear, i have a 556 i lvl ive been playing with different glyphs, talents and gear just need some advice for whats going on
    toons name "omagadorn" and guilds name is just the tip i would post links but im not allowed yet
    and if a higher mastery lvl would be more beneficial vs a higher haste lvl
    Last edited by omaga; 2013-10-30 at 06:34 AM.

  17. #1957
    Quote Originally Posted by omaga View Post
    what am i doing wrong on garrosh, im tanking adds first phase and seem to be taking huge spikes of dmg during phase 2 and 3 from garrosh my guild is 2 healing with a monk and a paladin and my other tank is a bear, i have a 556 i lvl ive been playing with different glyphs, talents and gear just need some advice for whats going on
    toons name "omagadorn" and guilds name is just the tip i would post links but im not allowed yet
    1) You have 2/4 retri set equipped. Why? Also, your rings suck big time Otherwise your gear seems fine. You could have more haste but it's all about getting them to drop etc.
    2) In 22min worth of wiping, you have used divine prot 15 times. It should be closer to 40.
    3) Your SotR uptime is 28%. Should be 50% or more.
    4) You are not using CS & Judgment on CD. It's a huge HoPo loss which means you will take more damage

    Seems that you have very little grasp at the basics of paladin tanking. You should go and read the protadin guide here.
    Sydäntalvi @ Darksorrow EU
    Paladin | Warrior | Death Knight | Druid | Monk

  18. #1958
    ok, is that it. 2/4 ret i got the chest because of the haste mastery and the pants i for got to change loot spec... and rings well some of use cant be so lucky to get them and spam divine prot even when not tanking also storing holy power when not tanking = bad or just use it when u got it
    Last edited by omaga; 2013-10-30 at 07:03 AM.

  19. #1959
    Quote Originally Posted by omaga View Post
    ok, is that it. 2/4 ret i got the chest because of the haste mastery and the pants i for got to change loot spec... and rings well some of use cant be so lucky to get them and spam divine prot even when not tanking also storing holy power when not tanking = bad or just use it when u got it
    You should use SotR as much as possible. It does great damage + gives you Bastion of Glory. No point in "storing HoPo"
    Sydäntalvi @ Darksorrow EU
    Paladin | Warrior | Death Knight | Druid | Monk

  20. #1960
    Quote Originally Posted by omaga View Post
    ok, is that it. 2/4 ret i got the chest because of the haste mastery and the pants i for got to change loot spec... and rings well some of use cant be so lucky to get them and spam divine prot even when not tanking also storing holy power when not tanking = bad or just use it when u got it
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthoxxx View Post
    You should use SotR as much as possible. It does great damage + gives you Bastion of Glory. No point in "storing HoPo"
    Omaga: To expand on that slightly, banking HoPo is good, sitting on HoPo is bad. Banking is storing to 5, then using it (ideally right before the next generator comes off cd, but earlier if you need to). Sitting on it, on the other hand, is a waste of resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

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