[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Luciferiuz]

Slightly over the cap is always better than under the cap. Have fun. Glad we could be of assistance.

I'm not sure if .40% over the cap and 0.07% under the cap are actually comparable, if it was an issue of being slightly over the cap I would agree.

You are probably better off not tailoring to avoid a 7/10000 chance on being parried and instead put that .5% into a more useful stat like mastery or haste.

But yeah this is personal opinion.

EDIT: Did they change Jewelcrafter gems so you can only use 2? I was definitely using 3 in cata...

EDIT 2: Ninaran, you would probably be better off using a [Ghost Iron Dragonling] over Lessons of the Darkmaster. That way you can socket almost the same amount of expertise with room for 1200+ useful stats which will be more beneficial than that strength proc, for example +600 Expertise/+600 Haste/+600 Mastery.

[Krekko]

Yeah, they JC gems are now only 2 instead of 3 from WotLK and Cata.

Big drop, sadly.

[Sinj94363]

So during our progress through the current raid tier me (fury warr) and our boomkin are having severe aggro issues on pull can anyone give me some advice for me or my tanks:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i8llgnxsba8qstdl/

Some logs for this evening. Any help much appreciated.

[Firefly33]

Do not know what to say really. Only way a paladin tank can lose aggro is if there are several mobs and people go all out on every mob.
As long as there is only 1 boss it should be impossible to overthreat a paladin tank.

Make sure he is using strength prepot and if he has issues use wings in the pull. If he still is having aggro problems tell him to overlook his rotation.

Make sure he is using Seal of Insight and rigtheous fury.

[Treelife]

Get Hand of Salvation, and tell him to tank properly.

[Luciferiuz]

He's not expertise capped, altho I'm not sure exactly how much that will help with threat.

[Felir]

He's not expertise capped, altho I'm not sure exactly how much that will help with threat.

A lot.
The stepup from soft cap to hard cap is massive.
Our DK is soft capped on Expertise and I out threat him so easily, I have to take off Righteous Fury and reapply it when there's a tank swap.

[Sinj94363]

Ok so from what i have gathered:

-Salv me just as we pull
-get him to hard exp cap
-stack haste after exp
-make sure righteous fury not canceled
-seal of insight

Ok so my questions are:

-wat talents should he run?
-wat glyphs should he use?
-should he pop any cds on pull?
-what rotation / abilities should he use on pull?
-his argument is always "i will lose survivability if i use x" if he uses anything on pull wat would my come back be to him.

Sorry for the noob questions i know warriors well im not v good at pala :-) just to help you give advice we are progressing through hsroic content doing elegon, bladelord and garalon tonight. I am hoping the answer wont be for me to gimp dps by holding back on pull.

Thanx in advance minjj

[Butler Log]

I have to take off Righteous Fury and reapply it when there's a tank swap.

One of the most awesome things about paladin tanking. If you want to drop your threat RIGHT NOW, you can hit

/cancelaura Vengeance
/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast [@player]Hand of Salvation

And not lose any of the stamina/damage taken/armor/avoidance buffs that come with things like Blood Presence and Defensive Stance.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 12:43 PM ----------

-Salv me just as we pull

Salvation reduces a percentage of threat (until 5.1), used on the pull it has a much lesser effect than ten seconds in to the fight. Due to the way that maths works, you'll only get about 10% overall threat reduction if you get Salv on the pull.

Ok so my questions are:

-wat talents should he run?

The only threat talents ar the level 75 and 90 talents. Holy Avenger is a given, I prefer Hammer of Light in the final tier.

-wat glyphs should he use?

Battle Healer is a shit ton of threat, Focused shield, Divine protection, Final Wrath, Alabaster Shield

-should he pop any cds on pull?

I use Avenging Wrath and Holy Avenger on the pull unless I know I will need it within thenext 2 minutes

-what rotation / abilities should he use on pull?

Hammer of Light, AS, then HotR-J-HW-CS-cons-J-CS-HW-AS continue the rotation

-his argument is always "i will lose survivability if i use x" if he uses anything on pull wat would my come back be to him.

Avenging Wrath has no real survivability increase, so he can use that at least.

Sorry for the noob questions i know warriors well im not v good at pala :-) just to help you give advice we are progressing through hsroic content doing elegon, bladelord and garalon tonight. I am hoping the answer wont be for me to gimp dps by holding back on pull.

Thanx in advance minjj

If he is playing correctly nobody should have to hold anything back.

[Turvakapsu]

One of the most awesome things about paladin tanking. If you want to drop your threat RIGHT NOW, you can hit

/cancelaura Vengeance
/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast [@player]Hand of Salvation

Oh my god do NOT EVER do that. Fine if you take Vengeance off that macro, but for the love of god do not EVER cancel Vengeance. You almost gave me a heart attack there.

Nice macro though, without the '/cancelaura Vengeance' part.


Also, you shouldn't use Holy Avenger for threat as it's our most effective damage reduction cooldown. You should also have something to tell you how much Vengeance you have and pop it about 10 seconds into the pull when you've gotten some decent Vengeance going, instead of immediately, as the Vengeance-immediately-at-max system is shit and doesn't work properly.

The final tier is very situational, though I've been using Light's Hammer a lot lately since it's a nice healing cooldown with a lot of Vengeance and does a nice bit of damage for even single targets. Basically, whenever my raid can utilize the healing from Light's Hammer properly and it can save healers mana I'll pick it.

[Firefly33]

One of the most awesome things about paladin tanking. If you want to drop your threat RIGHT NOW, you can hit

/cancelaura Vengeance
/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast [@player]Hand of Salvation

And not lose any of the stamina/damage taken/armor/avoidance buffs that come with things like Blood Presence and Defensive Stance

As above poster said, never EVER EVER cancel vengeance.
If you cancel RF and the other tank or whatever still loses aggro, the problem is not on your end even if you have 200k ap and he got 0 ap.

Cancelling vengeance is such a huge damage loss for the raid, that in an raid tier that is this dependant on tank dps ( especially 10 man ), you simply cannot afford it.

As Sacred Shield rescales for every tick, you actually also lose a ton of survivability by dropping vengeance.

[Butler Log]

Sacred Shield does NOT check for AP or haste changes after it has been cast. It takes the AP and haste value when you cast it, and keeps those values.

I just checked, With BoK I get 13796 absorb from SS. I cancelled BoK, which would have reduced the absorb shield size to 13148 if SS rescaled, and the value of the shield remained at 13796.

And I'd rather be 30k dps down for 20 seconds (at which point vengeance is close to zero anyway) than dead. That is something like 600000 damage, a little more than 2 seconds of raid damage.

[Turvakapsu]

Sacred Shield does NOT check for AP or haste changes after it has been cast. It takes the AP and haste value when you cast it, and keeps those values.

I just checked, With BoK I get 13796 absorb from SS. I cancelled BoK, which would have reduced the absorb shield size to 13148 if SS rescaled, and the value of the shield remained at 13796.

And I'd rather be 30k dps down for 20 seconds (at which point vengeance is close to zero anyway) than dead. That is something like 600000 damage, a little more than 2 seconds of raid damage.

For dungeons or LFR, sure. For anything more than "hanging out with friends once a week" canceling Vengeance is straight up dumb.

[Butler Log]

For dungeons or LFR, sure. For anything more than "hanging out with friends once a week" canceling Vengeance is straight up dumb.

I haven't hit that button in well over a year. But I have it there. Just in case. For emergencies, where me dying would mean an instant wipe call, and me not having aggro would mean us not wiping. And wiping us because I don't want to remove my Vengeance? THAT is straight up dumb.

[Turvakapsu]

I haven't hit that button in well over a year. But I have it there. Just in case. For emergencies, where me dying would mean an instant wipe call, and me not having aggro would mean us not wiping. And wiping us because I don't want to remove my Vengeance? THAT is straight up dumb.

I haven't come across a scenario where we would wipe if removing my Righteous Fury wasn't enough. Your other tank might be bad, that's probably what's going on. The ridiculous modifier for tank threat means you would have to do over 5 times more damage than him (threat modifier is 500% if I remember right) for long enough to pull from 100% threat to 110% threat.

Yeah, I thought too that's not realistic. ^_^

[blackdon]

question guys. i`m at about 8700 mastery with might buff up aprox 53% dmg reduction from sotr . with hit/exp capped i`m thinking of maintaining current mastery and dropping next points into haste . would that work better than continuing to go mastery?

[Llewellyn]

I need some help.

I know that I can put out more dps as a protection pally. But i cannot seem to get that far... Im using weakauras with TECH'S STRINGS. but I still dont seem to get up there. I have hit and expertise capped and started to gem and reforge into haste. is this normal, (i highly doubt it) or what can I do? im using my own method of reforging with the stat weights from tech. I have no clue how to use wowreforge and dont seem to find any threads that gives me any help. Overall im not a bad tank, Im good at what I do, but more dps is always a win in progresion raiding.

You can find my character on wow armory eu twilights hammer Esgaroth, blood elf paladin (prot)
Regards

Esgaroth

[Firefly33]

The biggest key to dps is simply knowing your rotation and vengeance.

Some logs would allow us to help you more.

[Turvakapsu]

Do you have any logs or videos?

---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 02:00 AM ----------

The biggest key to dps is simply knowing your rotation and vengeance.

Some logs would allow us to help you more.

Oh damn, you there ganking the forums! I was too slow =(

[Firefly33]

Oh damn, you there ganking the forums! I was too slow =(

Not even close!

OT:

Just took a quick glance at your armory, and you should not expect and record DPS until you get your item level up a bit. Your haste values are also low so you should not really try to compare your dps with someone 15 item levels higher and haste stacking.
( not sure that is what you are doing ).

By the way, notice you are not using the battle healer glyph? Are you using Seal of Insight?

But naturally, if you want more dps, work on your rotation, get more item levels ( duh ), you could go for more haste if your up for it.
The more you tank the boss compared to the other tank, the more vengeance you will naturally get.

Try to pop cds with high vengeance. Learn how to maximize dps on fights.

Compare yourself to yourself and try to improve yourself.


If you can not supply logs, at least give us some rough idea on how much dps you pull on fights where you think you can do better.

---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 01:58 AM ----------

Just a question about this thread in general

What not to post:

• Questions about HOW to gear, HOW to spec, HOW to reforge. Utilize the other tools on the forum to figure out the answers to these questions. If you can't find it, feel free to post in the utility threads and ask!
  

I do not think that makes sense. Paladin tank gearing in MoP is not straight forward. There are several ways to gear, all of them valid depending on your situation. How you should gear is dependant on your raid group. There are currently not a single guide or thread on this forum that correctly explains to people WHY to gear in a special way and when it is appropriate to stack x or stack y.

So in my opinion, questions about how to gear is alot more relevant than e.g. "What is my rotation", as this is something that actually can be looked up very easily. The actual gearing of a paladin is one of the most complex things (if not the most) of a prot paladins life.

Same goes for talents, highly dependant on fight and group. There is no 1 correct path.