1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am just gonna chime in and agree with this. The brutal truth is that if tanks rip of eachother, there is a large difference in skill between the tanks. Under no circumstance should a taunting tank lose aggro to another tank. We often had issues on Jin'Rokh HC, which is a fight that includes a lot of taunting with the tank swaps, but that is because I am pulling almost 300k dps and the other tank is pulling 150k. I have raided with probably 10-15 tanks this tier, only 1 managed to hold threat perfectly. Sometimes he lost aggro on the first taunt if the boss involves early taunts. Now I have tanks that can lose aggro 2-3 minutes into the fight.
    It's very common early in the fight to lose aggro right off a taunt simply because the tank you relieved is bad at threat generation.

    We all know that in melee range, aggro pulls at 110% of current target threat. If early on you inherit a poor amount of threat points from a taunt, that doesn't stop the inferior threat generating tank from getting lucky on a small series of strong attacks, and the lower amount of threat they generated previously increases the probability that such a series of attacks will exceed that 10% threshhold within the period of taunt fixation.

    In practice I find this happens more often than the reverse situation early on, where it's actually the better tps generating tank that gets pulled off of, counter-intuitively.

  2. #802
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    I have been having trouble with my co tank he is a warrior and is underperforming, I can take threat from him at almost any point of any encounter. It is incredibly frustrating, I have such a hard time to just actually disengage boss and sit after taunt swaps. I have also tried everything I can think of. I use salve on cd and sometimes bubble, gonna try out a cancel rf macro tonight on ji kun to see if that helps. It really messes things up when I have almost droppedy talon rake stacks then I get agro right before they should drop and get raked to the face again.

  3. #803
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    @ threat discussion - i really welcome the proposed taunt threat buffs incoming in 5.4.

    Ive had a few co tanks this expansion, mainly DKs and have always struggled with post taunt threat (i.e. me ripping threat back from them after a tank swap). Even using HoSalv it rarely cured the issue, as after the 10 sec is up it's 50-50 whether or not the boss will just revert back to me.

    I honestly dont know what my fellow tank is doing sometimes to still lose aggro, they must have vengence surely after such a period of grace! I do find this infurating sometimes - it's a complete ball ache to micromanage damage output to sit at 107-109% threat whilst your tank partner has aggro for extended periods of time, even up to when we swap back again.

    Bring on 5.4 is all i can say. /rant off
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  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    @ threat discussion - i really welcome the proposed taunt threat buffs incoming in 5.4.

    Ive had a few co tanks this expansion, mainly DKs and have always struggled with post taunt threat (i.e. me ripping threat back from them after a tank swap). Even using HoSalv it rarely cured the issue, as after the 10 sec is up it's 50-50 whether or not the boss will just revert back to me.

    I honestly dont know what my fellow tank is doing sometimes to still lose aggro, they must have vengence surely after such a period of grace! I do find this infurating sometimes - it's a complete ball ache to micromanage damage output to sit at 107-109% threat whilst your tank partner has aggro for extended periods of time, even up to when we swap back again.

    Bring on 5.4 is all i can say. /rant off
    In my old guild we had a bDK (although it was only off-spec for the player), who did ~half of my DPS. It was a pain. This was the sole reason why I started using a cancelaura macro for RF... and it also made Horridon less messy. + Helps me track on WoL when I actively tank the boss. I highly recommend it to any paladin.

    EDIT:
    Just a question: How high SotR uptime you guys have IRL? According to SimC I could reach 67%, but this is kinda unreachable in the encounters IMO. I'm around 50-55% mostly, or on Tortos, where I'm on the boss I reach 60-61%. And I'm actually not sure if this is OK, or I should try to improve harder. ^^;;
    Last edited by Wanko; 2013-06-20 at 08:56 AM.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    In my old guild we had a bDK (although it was only off-spec for the player), who did ~half of my DPS. It was a pain. This was the sole reason why I started using a cancelaura macro for RF... and it also made Horridon less messy. + Helps me track on WoL when I actively tank the boss. I highly recommend it to any paladin.

    EDIT:
    Just a question: How high SotR uptime you guys have IRL? According to SimC I could reach 67%, but this is kinda unreachable in the encounters IMO. I'm around 50-55% mostly, or on Tortos, where I'm on the boss I reach 60-61%. And I'm actually not sure if this is OK, or I should try to improve harder. ^^;;
    Yeah, with all the new taunt buffs, it must have anctually been considered an issue for most people to even be on the radar as a "need" to be fixed. Weird.

    And ShotR uptime for stand-still (like Tortos) is ~65-68%, lower 60s for moving stuff. But that's pushing 18k haste. YMMV based on haste levels and t75 talents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    In my old guild we had a bDK (although it was only off-spec for the player), who did ~half of my DPS. It was a pain. This was the sole reason why I started using a cancelaura macro for RF... and it also made Horridon less messy. + Helps me track on WoL when I actively tank the boss. I highly recommend it to any paladin.

    EDIT:
    Just a question: How high SotR uptime you guys have IRL? According to SimC I could reach 67%, but this is kinda unreachable in the encounters IMO. I'm around 50-55% mostly, or on Tortos, where I'm on the boss I reach 60-61%. And I'm actually not sure if this is OK, or I should try to improve harder. ^^;;
    Some people here have insane haste levels and output SotR uptimes that I do admit surprised me (promdates eg). I had about 13k Haste last week and clocked 67% on Durumu but last night on Tortos -with 14.5k after some big upgrades- somehow only managed 60%. Probably had a little bit to do with sitting on abilities, like when he's casting Furious Stone Breath and I'm at 5 HP with both CS and J available. Not going to do anything but filler until the cast is interrupted so I can maximize my actual, effective SotR uptime.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Some people here have insane haste levels and output SotR uptimes that I do admit surprised me (promdates eg). I had about 13k Haste last week and clocked 67% on Durumu but last night on Tortos -with 14.5k after some big upgrades- somehow only managed 60%. Probably had a little bit to do with sitting on abilities, like when he's casting Furious Stone Breath and I'm at 5 HP with both CS and J available. Not going to do anything but filler until the cast is interrupted so I can maximize my actual, effective SotR uptime.
    I have been known to push 70%+ on some fights, but that might just be me getting lucky with DP procs and abusing my 4P bonus. I did have a 68% uptime last night on Megaera, and a 73% uptime on Horridon the night before. Ironically, I did have 41 HoPo gained from my 4P bonus on Horridon.



  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    I have been known to push 70%+ on some fights, but that might just be me getting lucky with DP procs and abusing my 4P bonus. I did have a 68% uptime last night on Megaera, and a 73% uptime on Horridon the night before. Ironically, I did have 41 HoPo gained from my 4P bonus on Horridon.
    Jeeez. #25manbonuses. How long was your kill/how many times did you get to pop DivProt?

    We're getting Horridon to 30% between 3rd and 4th door now, making things interesting ><
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  9. #809
    Our fight was about 11m long, and I used DivProt 8 times. I could probably use it more often, but then again there isn't a lot of times when it's required to have a cooldown up for the first 4 gates. Infact, I've even been pushing to higher and higher stacks of TP by going as long as I possibly can before using DS/HoP.

    I did notice that 10H kills seem to be 2+ minutes faster than 25H, still have the #7 horridon kill though. Figure next week I'll try to push it even more and see if I can break top 5.



  10. #810
    My paladin alt is seeing ~65% SoTR uptime now with 32% haste, more or less depending on DP procs. I broke 70% uptime on durumu last week with some decent rng and was happy.

    Offtopic a bit, but my dps DK main just started H primordius 25m last night, and every wipe was a blob reaching the boss. Hopefully the tanks figure out positioning etc before tonight, because dps and healing was all on track. 11% wipe

  11. #811
    One of the things that sucks about Holy Avenger is the potential to "waste" holy power because you generate it faster than you can spend it, especially if used when bloodlust is up.
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  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    One of the things that sucks about Holy Avenger is the potential to "waste" holy power because you generate it faster than you can spend it, especially if used when bloodlust is up.
    How? Now that ShotR is affected by SoB, you should have no problems clearing it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    How? Now that ShotR is affected by SoB, you should have no problems clearing it out.
    However with the new T16 4p, assuming it sticks, you will notice wasted holy power due to getting HoPo faster than you can spend.

    I just wanna hate on HA though, as I really dislike that talent, think I have never actually used it for a first kill ever, oh yeah, Garalon for blanketing the raid with EF. I tried it on some bosses but always ended up swapping it for SW/DP.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    However with the new T16 4p, assuming it sticks, you will notice wasted holy power due to getting HoPo faster than you can spend
    Assuming the gear isn't full of shitty dodge and parry dual-avoidance items >.>
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  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Assuming the gear isn't full of shitty dodge and parry dual-avoidance items >.>
    Well, that does not change much that you will still see a very clunky use with HA + BoG -> HoPo conversion, you will likely see a lot of the HoPo generated from the 4p being wasted during HA.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #816
    After reading about these high ShoR uptimes, I can't help but feel like I'm doing something wrong. I'm at 45%+ haste fully raid buffed (13k haste IIRC), but I can't seem to crack 60% ShoR uptimes (and generally see close to 55%). I think the best I did was 65% on Durumu with a lot of lucky DP procs.

    If any WoL detectives could take a look and see if there's something that I could improve on, I would greatly appreciate it. I have a fairly good understanding of the rotation and have gotten past my tendency to J over CS so apart from my rotation getting temporarily messed up during movement phases of a fight (like moving Horridon from gate to gate), I don't think I'm messing up my rotation too much? Either way, WoL link below (please disregard our many wipes...it was a rough night):

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5608&e=6210
    Last edited by pld; 2013-06-26 at 02:38 PM.

  17. #817
    WoL are down for maintenence, but if you are doing your rotation correctly, there are only 2 options really.


    1. Your uptime on the boss is not as high as it could be, i.e. on bosses like durumu, maybe you go out of melee during the beam phase causing you to have lower uptime over the entire fight due to not being able to build hopo during the entire beam phase.

    2. You are not clicking your buttons fast enough. Maybe you have a 1.1 second GCD, but if you only use a GCD every 1.4 seconds, that does not really matter. Just make sure you are really spamming those buttons so you dont have dead time between your abilities.

    If you check logs when they come back online you can check whichever it is.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #818
    It looks like you're just not hitting buttons enough.

    http://raidbots.com/comparebot/51cb0...60001a4#damage This is comparing your 10H (10:02) fight with my 25H (10:04) from last night. The big differences is I had 6 more DP procs than you did, 6 more GC procs, 4 Judgment, 11 more CS, but 11 less HotR (wash). So in general I gained 28 more HoPo from just base "abilities" than you did, which is 9 more SotR (I did 24 more SotR than you over the course of that fight, most of which is attributed to my 4P bonus giving me 38 more HoPo to use across the fight).

    edit: I do have roughly 4k haste than you do when I'm raid buffed too, so that could be a big difference as well.
    Last edited by Promdates; 2013-06-26 at 03:58 PM.



  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    It looks like you're just not hitting buttons enough.

    http://raidbots.com/comparebot/51cb0...60001a4#damage This is comparing your 10H (10:02) fight with my 25H (10:04) from last night. The big differences is I had 6 more DP procs than you did, 6 more GC procs, 4 Judgment, 11 more CS, but 11 less HotR (wash). So in general I gained 28 more HoPo from just base "abilities" than you did, which is 9 more SotR (I did 24 more SotR than you over the course of that fight, most of which is attributed to my 4P bonus giving me 38 more HoPo to use across the fight).

    edit: I do have roughly 4k haste than you do when I'm raid buffed too, so that could be a big difference as well.
    It's strange because I tend to spam my key binds (habit from Starcraft) but I've noticed my game's "reaction time" doesn't feel very snappy. My MS isn't very high, so I don't think it's an ISP issue but there's a noticeable lag between when I hit a spell and it actually casting.

    I'll have to look into this, but I'll definitely be more conscious about trying to hit more buttons. While the 4k haste difference most definitely makes a difference, I would expect higher ShoR up times at my current haste level.
    Last edited by pld; 2013-06-26 at 04:56 PM.

  20. #820
    You did have it up for 60% of the time. Really Horridon is a fight where you primarily want it up for TP, I can't see 5% haste being 10% uptime difference of 18 extra cs/j/hotr usage. 40% haste is 3.21s CS, 4.28s J. 35% is 3.33s / 4.44s. Over 10:02 minutes, that's a difference of 187/140 vs 180/135 only 12 difference.



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