1. #1061
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Sounds like you're not banking ShotR's, which is a bad thing for any tank swap fight. Aside from the fact that it gives you 2 strong hits within the duration of the taunt fixate (start with 5 HoPo, taunt+ShotR, CS/J, ShotR again), it also provides 6 seconds of ShotR coverage for healers to swap targets and wind up heals.

    Priority is a bit weird, and casting ShotR as top priority isn't helping your threat necessarily. Stick to the normal/suggested CS, J, X, CS, X, J, CS, X, X. If you're using CLC stuff, that string you have looks OK.

    RF isn't broken

    Also, why are you 2 tanking IQ? This is one of the tailor-made solo-tank fights for a protpal. That'd also solve your threat issue
    My CLC Prot string is this: ss wogdp wog sorha sordp sor5 horwb cs j asgc as hw how cons

    Did not know that HoPu didn't work on the Fire for Meg anymore.. that might explain why I didn't feel like it was working

    Re: Solo tanking... He doesn't like to let me solo tank, basically (although our last two IQ tries he died on the tornados and I ended up solo tanking him anyways lol, once he was down to <10m health but everyone else died and I ran out of cooldowns ). I only this past week was allowed to solo tank Horridon (but he still grabs him when War God comes out; I would think it should be the other way around). He solo tanks Durumu and I go Ret for that, but I am better as Ret than he is as Feral so that factors in as well. He's also the Raid Leader and the Guild Master.
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  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    He's also the Raid Leader and the Guild Master.
    Hell hath no fury like a gm scorned.

    As far as Horridon goes, if he doesn't let you pick up both Jalak and Horridon, it is better for you to be picking up Jalak so that your stacks can fall off and you can take Horridon back after Jalak goes down (at that point I find my bubbles are on cd, so have to wait for them to come off cd or stacks to fall off normally)...unless you don't do that, in which case, well, if it works, it works, but it's not optimal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Salv cancels threat for 10 seconds, which is great. However, Veng lasts for 20 seconds (since last hit). So, if tank B taunts off when tank A has ~150k V, tank B gets 75k V immediately (and top threat). Tank A retains 150k V (unless there is aoe or something to reduce it), meaning that Tank B has to catch up to that level of V/threat before the Salv wears off, in 10 seconds. Else, tank A can easily pull the boss back.

    5.4 taunt changes fix all this, by giving tank B that retard-mode 200% threat buff for a few seconds, which should solve any issues. For now, you can also just 2x ShotR and /sit to spike up in V to catch up, or hit buttons faster. 10 sec is ~8 GCDs, which should be more than ample time to build a threat lead unless your OT is just trolling you.
    That's not even it, if you hit Salv on yourself, you should be gaining 0 threat even with vengeance. This means that your other tank has a full 10 seconds to do as much as they can and be above you. When salv wears off you should be below the other tank. My argument is that I instantly appeared out of salv well above the other tank, meaning my threat skyrocketed above him without me even doing anything once salv ended.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Did not know that HoPu didn't work on the Fire for Meg anymore.. that might explain why I didn't feel like it was working
    Yeah, they changed it a while back. I even showed in the logs where it was only reducing the damage by 10%, not 70%.



  4. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Hell hath no fury like a gm scorned.

    As far as Horridon goes, if he doesn't let you pick up both Jalak and Horridon, it is better for you to be picking up Jalak so that your stacks can fall off and you can take Horridon back after Jalak goes down (at that point I find my bubbles are on cd, so have to wait for them to come off cd or stacks to fall off normally)...unless you don't do that, in which case, well, if it works, it works, but it's not optimal
    He usually keeps Horridon until the kill, but it's whatever. It works. Jalakk normally beats the tar out of me so I don't think I'd be comfortable enough tanking both of them together, I usually have to pop all my cooldowns just to live when Jalakk comes out.
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  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    That's not even it, if you hit Salv on yourself, you should be gaining 0 threat even with vengeance. This means that your other tank has a full 10 seconds to do as much as they can and be above you. When salv wears off you should be below the other tank. My argument is that I instantly appeared out of salv well above the other tank, meaning my threat skyrocketed above him without me even doing anything once salv ended.
    You still gain full threat with Salv, it just is an inactive threat until Salv falls off. For example, if you Salv yourself with (numbers made up) 10M threat, and gain 500k threat for the duration of Salv, while under Salv you'll have 0 effective threat, but once Salv ends you'll have 10.5M threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    You still gain full threat with Salv, it just is an inactive threat until Salv falls off. For example, if you Salv yourself with (numbers made up) 10M threat, and gain 500k threat for the duration of Salv, while under Salv you'll have 0 effective threat, but once Salv ends you'll have 10.5M threat.
    That's exactly my argument. Salv is not working as intended, meaning you should be gaining 0 threat when it's active, not hidden threat that becomes active once salv wears off. I just think that people don't use salv enough to have noticed this glaring bug. Which makes it a terrible fade.



  7. #1067
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    That's not even it, if you hit Salv on yourself, you should be gaining 0 threat even with vengeance. This means that your other tank has a full 10 seconds to do as much as they can and be above you. When salv wears off you should be below the other tank. My argument is that I instantly appeared out of salv well above the other tank, meaning my threat skyrocketed above him without me even doing anything once salv ended.
    As I read the change when MoP came, it was basically an Anti-TOT/MD, in that it "pauses" your threat at it's current level and supresses your threat for the duration of the buff. After it fades, you get assigned that threat. Which means that your other tank has 10 sec (which should be plenty) to gain on you. I've seen this happen on JinRohk with me salving myself and then pulling back after 10 sec from our monk, who was certainly pulling adequate DPS/TPS. Same on JiKun.

    Basically Salv is just a pause button, not a threat drop: if you still go HAM during salv, there's a good chance you can rip back if your OT has slow ramp up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    He usually keeps Horridon until the kill, but it's whatever. It works. Jalakk normally beats the tar out of me so I don't think I'd be comfortable enough tanking both of them together, I usually have to pop all my cooldowns just to live when Jalakk comes out.
    Probably because you're using DP instead of HA, and have low haste. HA alone is enough to tank Jalakk AND Horri on N mode in the final phase. HA-wall, into GoAK, into DivProt+AD/externals.

    But either way, it sounds like your GM is just stubborn or strong-headed and not playing to the groups strengths by trying to tank stuff. Lol at him on Durumu, and esp at 2-tanking IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    You still gain full threat with Salv, it just is an inactive threat until Salv falls off. For example, if you Salv yourself with (numbers made up) 10M threat, and gain 500k threat for the duration of Salv, while under Salv you'll have 0 effective threat, but once Salv ends you'll have 10.5M threat.
    That's how I understand it, and how it seems to work.

    Not that it's a GOOD way to work, but seems to be how it goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  8. #1068
    Well, it does exactly what it says it does. Temporarily removing all threat from a party member.

    I however liked the previous HoSalv more, making someone temporarly untargetable feels worse to me than actually reducing their threat.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-30 at 02:56 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #1069
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    That's exactly my argument. Salv is not working as intended, meaning you should be gaining 0 threat when it's active, not hidden threat that becomes active once salv wears off. I just think that people don't use salv enough to have noticed this glaring bug. Which makes it a terrible fade.
    Just to play devil's advocate: why would this NOT be intended? It's a targetable threat drop, even if only temporarily. I mean, again, it's not a GOOD design, but neither are a lot of things currently
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #1070
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    But either way, it sounds like your GM is just stubborn or strong-headed and not playing to the groups strengths by trying to tank stuff. Lol at him on Durumu, and esp at 2-tanking IQ.
    I would actually agree with the GMs decision to solo tank durumu on the druid. Druids are king on Durumu. I find druids to be far better tanks than paladins for durumu, especially considering what Arothand said about his retribution spec being better than the druids, which makes it a no-brainer. They get better tank and DPS.

    Though yeah, 2 tanking IQ is... wtf...
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    That's exactly my argument. Salv is not working as intended, meaning you should be gaining 0 threat when it's active, not hidden threat that becomes active once salv wears off. I just think that people don't use salv enough to have noticed this glaring bug. Which makes it a terrible fade.
    It works just like Mirror Images, or Fade (I think), since they changed it at the start of MoP. Actually, in Cata didn't they have a glyph that gave it that behavior, with it acting to reduce the threat without the glyph? I personally prefer the old version, but the old version did have its own quirks (hitting it early in the fight was a waste, due to the low relative threat values...the current implementation allows you to put it on a dps at the start of a fight who you know might pull off you (if that were ever possible...) and give you ~10 seconds to establish threat over them).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  12. #1072
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would actually agree with the GMs decision to solo tank durumu on the druid. Druids are king on Durumu. I find druids to be far better tanks than paladins for durumu, especially considering what Arothand said about his retribution spec being better than the druids, which makes it a no-brainer. They get better tank and DPS.

    Though yeah, 2 tanking IQ is... wtf...
    Pretty much. I out DPS a better-geared Frost DK on Durumu (another issue itself) but I don't mind it (I wasn't even going to tank again, but I was asked to come out of retirement as the team needed a reliable tank), and the Druid does crazy DPS (on Durumu he's usually around 150k, while when were were 2-tanking I was about 85k or so), so they get 110k or so from me plus 150k from the bear as opposed to around 90k from me and no idea what from him. We have only just got to IQ so still learning that fight, and I'll suggest solo tanking it. I will also switch out DP for HA and look into getting myself the cloak or the other ring (as I will not see the legendary cloak for a while, if at all, seeing as I am on the 3k VP quest right now) and swapping Colossus for Windsong. We are going to be doing some attempts on Heroic Jin'rokh tonight (the bear has 12/12 from when the raid team was rebuilding and he had another guild get him 12/12) and then go back to our normal progress.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-07-30 at 03:05 PM.
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  13. #1073
    HA will give you some boosted threat and a nice survival CD for JinRohk (and Horri last phase, Meg for burning heads, JiKun for taunt swaps, DA for the start, IQ for last phase, etc).

    Also, post logs!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would actually agree with the GMs decision to solo tank durumu on the druid. Druids are king on Durumu. I find druids to be far better tanks than paladins for durumu, especially considering what Arothand said about his retribution spec being better than the druids, which makes it a no-brainer. They get better tank and DPS.

    Though yeah, 2 tanking IQ is... wtf...
    I've never seen a bear worth a flip this expansion, so I guess I'm biased or prejudice against bears.

    And yeah, the net gain of a decent tank and good DPS vs decent tank and decent DPS is obviously better, but was more making the point that the GM seems stubborn for no real reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #1074
    I would rather have the paladin tank and the druid dps, instead of the other way around.



  15. #1075
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    HA will give you some boosted threat and a nice survival CD for JinRohk (and Horri last phase, Meg for burning heads, JiKun for taunt swaps, DA for the start, IQ for last phase, etc).

    Also, post logs!
    Sir, yes sir!

    And yeah, the net gain of a decent tank and good DPS vs decent tank and decent DPS is obviously better, but was more making the point that the GM seems stubborn for no real reason.
    Not to derail, but he is. He also rages at people on Mumble for things and kind of treats us like we're supposed to be some cutting edge heroic raiders, but won't sit obviously bad people (half of us had to basically tell him we had no choice but to bench a healer that was underperforming, and it took one of our officers ragequitting the raid to do it) or give a care to raid comps. He tends to just focus on how awesome he is (with of course the "That's because I know how to play my toon" attitude) and less on beefing everyone up or recruiting for what we need and making sure people are up to par or benching them. But that's neither here nor there.
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  16. #1076
    He sounds like a druid GM I used to run with...but looking at your armory tells me it's not him

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  17. #1077
    The ones who know everything are usually the ones who have the most to learn.

    Best of luck in there, sounds pretty toxic. I'd normally suggest trying to fix it or work on it with the mgmt, but it sounds like the mgmt is the problem. May be time to look for a better home, if that's something that interests you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #1078
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    The ones who know everything are usually the ones who have the most to learn.

    Best of luck in there, sounds pretty toxic. I'd normally suggest trying to fix it or work on it with the mgmt, but it sounds like the mgmt is the problem. May be time to look for a better home, if that's something that interests you.
    Eh.. a year ago I might have, but lately I haven't cared. I like the guild, I've been with them (barring a small bit end of Cata to start of MoP) since Firelands, and honestly I don't care that much anymore to push myself to the level where I could probably be if I tried.
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  19. #1079
    I'd think his decision to solo-tank Durumu would be more defensible if he were doing it due to raid comp and not ego. Because if raid comp were the #1 reason for his decisions, why isn't the paladin solo-tanking Iron Qon? Oh, he'd have to go Feral.

    Sounds like your typical asshole "semi-hardcore" RL.

    On the other hand, if my Guardian were my main instead of my paladin, I'd probably be a bit raged too.

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Sounds like your typical asshole "semi-hardcore" RL.

    On the other hand, if my Guardian were my main instead of my paladin, I'd probably be a bit moonkin too.
    Fixed that for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

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