1. #2181
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also saying min-maxing personal dps is not a good thing for an encouter that is nothing but a gearcheck/dps check seems kinda moronic. Min-maxing personal (or rather raid) dps is the largest part of Garrosh HC.
    why are you assuming that i overgeared the encounter? According to wowprogress our first kill was Oct 11, 2013, so we didn't even have enough time to overgear it.

  2. #2182
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Not everyone overgeared the encounter when they killed it the first time. I stopped raiding after our first kill, so my only experience of Garrosh is in relevant gear when all DPS mattered. If you would have uttured that statement in my raid you would have been out on the street in a heartbeat.

    Also saying min-maxing personal dps is not a good thing for an encouter that is nothing but a gearcheck/dps check seems kinda moronic. Min-maxing personal (or rather raid) dps is the largest part of Garrosh HC.
    I'd just like to point out that Ironi had the world second 10man kill so he certainly wasn't overgearing it. that being said I don't see a reason to glyph DP when we already have SotR at 50%+ when the alternative is better magic reduction (and annihalate soaking ie. more damage).

  3. #2183
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebubble View Post
    I'd just like to point out that Ironi had the world second 10man kill so he certainly wasn't overgearing it. that being said I don't see a reason to glyph DP when we already have SotR at 50%+ when the alternative is better magic reduction (and annihalate soaking ie. more damage).
    both unglyphed and glyphed DP have their moments on garrosh, but imo if you want to play it safe (aiming for first kill), you shouldn't try to maximize your vengeance by soaking annihilate or despair stacks since it will just increase your chances to die without any real gain.
    But saying something like glyphed/unglyphed DP is mandatory for the fight becouse you liked it, is just forcing your own preference on others instead of helping them (which this thread is all about)

    edit: Sorry Spacebubble, my post looks like i'm pointing my finger at you, but i'm not ^^
    Last edited by Ironi; 2013-12-01 at 05:09 PM.
    Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.

  4. #2184
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironi View Post
    why are you assuming that i overgeared the encounter? According to wowprogress our first kill was Oct 11, 2013, so we didn't even have enough time to overgear it.
    So, you dont think tank dps was important with that gear?

    Rofl, I am without words.

    Soaking Annihilates properly led to a dps increase of about 25-35 million damage done for us. A bad soak would still be a 10-20 million damage increase. That is not even counting the other tanks dps increase, but that was lower as he did not stand in all annihilates in second transition. We had 0 deaths due to it. Like, why would you die on it? It is highly predictable damage on which you can use cooldowns in a specific pattern to survive. Not really rocket science. Those times when your cooldowns wont cover it because you messed out, you know it and simply move out of annihilates. You only stand in them if you know your gonna surivive (should be obvious). With tank cloak it is impossible to die on annihilates.

    What do you think you raid leader would have done if any of your DPSers was doing 30 million less damage in P2 than he should be doing?
    Sorry to say, but you are playing your paladin badly hand holding your raid team back because you refuse to do any other part of tanking than standing still and getting hit.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-12-01 at 05:33 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #2185
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So, you dont think tank dps was important with that gear?

    Rofl, I am without words.
    only real dps check in the whole encounter was/is P3, where you can't stack vengeance without damaging your raid, so yeah, i still think tank dps during p1/p2/transmissions is mostly irrelevant.
    Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.

  6. #2186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironi View Post
    only real dps check in the whole encounter was/is P3, where you can't stack vengeance without damaging your raid, so yeah, i still think tank dps during p1/p2/transmissions is mostly irrelevant.
    You can stack vengeance before the P3 transition without damaging your raid. On which you as a paladin can dish out quite siginificant dps with final wrath. The by far most common wipe factor in our raid was not reaching the dps timers in P1 and P2. P3 was a bit tough, but imo that was mostly because lack of practice. P1 is imo harder than P3, just that you get less practice on P3. P3 can easily be done with proper communications and tactics though. Getting a third or fourth whirling did not always mean a wipe if you just used CDs.'

    You did have higher item level than us though on your first kill so maybe that is why you did not experience the dps problems the same way we did. Out of our 200 wipes, if we could have had 2 more item levels, we would probably have shaved off 100 of them atleast because wiping on P1 and P2.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-12-01 at 05:45 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #2187
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sorry to say, but you are playing your paladin badly hand holding your raid team back because you refuse to do any other part of tanking than standing still and getting hit.
    i guess every prot paladin from top3 10man guilds are just pure shit then, since everyone avoided unnecessary damage during first kills.
    Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.

  8. #2188
    For the Firefly vs Ironi :
    With all due respect, stop the ego clash on 2 separate valid opinions depending on parameters strictly related to each roster's needs.
    This began as an interesting debate and derived into childish : I'm better than you imo, so I'm right because you're bad imo. And frnakly, this doesn't help ANYone.


    For prot paladins seeking answers :
    Nowadays : pick either glyph DP if garrosh melees are a problem (and this means they are a threat) or unglyphed it if these are not and enjoy vengeance whoring.
    same goes for focused shield or not, though dps requirement may seem meaningless for some. Adjust your setup according to YOUR raid settings folks.

    Peace

  9. #2189
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    For the Firefly vs Ironi :
    With all due respect, stop the ego clash on 2 separate valid opinions depending on parameters strictly related to each roster's needs.
    This began as an interesting debate and derived into childish : I'm better than you imo, so I'm right because you're bad imo. And frnakly, this doesn't help ANYone
    It is not an ego clash. It is an opinion clash.

    As I see it, if you can earn a shitton of dps for no harm on a fight that is nothing but a dps check, why not do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironi View Post
    i guess every prot paladin from top3 10man guilds are just pure shit then, since everyone avoided unnecessary damage during first kills.
    Far from the top 3 protadins in the world (not saying that I am). Also differences in tactics etc. Paragon choose to deal with it by solo healing for example which completely changes the dynamics of the tanking. Cant say I analysed their kill at all, but I would assume they needed to actually use CDs in P1 and P2, which would make soaking properly impossible.

    But, for example Fraggoji is a mediocre protection paladin (speaking from the top 100 perspective). He is a great player, but paladin is just not his class. He was much better before he rerolled.

    Also, basing something on what the first guilds that kill something do is hardly something you should do as it is far more likely that the guilds in the top 10-50 have a better strategy simply due to having more time to think out a tactic, aswell as analyzing the kills and grabbing the things that each guild did good and removing what they did bad to get the perfect strategy. The first guilds killing a boss a lot of the times misses something that would have made it easier.

    Anyway, when you killed the boss does not change the fact you severely gimped your performance. But I guess with the gear level of your guild you did not need to optimize damage as a tank and you could safely get carried.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-12-02 at 12:09 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #2190
    Field Marshal Teddybird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It is not an ego clash. It is an opinion clash.

    As I see it, if you can earn a shitton of dps for no harm on a fight that is nothing but a dps check, why not do it?
    It may be a diffrent of opinion, and as a prot paladin only 9/14 i cant and wont jump in. However after reading last page it does start reading like a ego clash due to the "your shit" type comments though both of your post, even if that wasn't the original intent.
    This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
    Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  11. #2191
    I'm from Ascendance, on Draenor EU. We got the World 8th Garrosh 25 man Hc kill. So trying to say that my opinions don't matter at the cutting edge of progression is a bit of a false point.

    You're telling me that I should be unglyphing Divine Protection and using it to soak the Annihilate. Whereas throughout the transitions I've been Hand of Sacrificing other members of the raid who don't pick up the buff for whichever reason. We never struggle for dps in our guild, no matter what the fight or how tight it is, with 25 players surviving we've never hit an enrage, so there has never been any need for us to take unnecessary damage to deal more damage.

    Even without Righteous fury, hitting a mob for however much Avenger's Shield hits for is going to bring it into melee and it will get cleaved by cloaks. This will make the mob drop down to 50% in a matter of seconds, which then means that whilst its being kited then we need to have someone run, taunt it out and kill the mob. You can argue that its straight forward enough to not use Avenger's Shield at all during whirling corruption to be safe, but when it can be treated as a holy power generator with a GC proc, there is a survivability loss to not use it (no matter how small it is, thats what we play to do as tanks - survive) so why not take focused shield?

    You also say that Phase 4 has no tank damage, I hit the highest amount of Vengeance for the fight during Phase 4 when I tank Garrosh, I hit 500k whilst tanking in P4 compared to 300-400k throughout the rest of the fight. This might be due to us not tank switching between the 2 or 3 of us during this phase, but I take the largest amount of dps at that point, so why not plan and prepare for it?

    During Phase 2 and 3 the highest amount of damage I take is when I'm being hit by the boss at 3-4 stacks of his dot, not during the whirling while I'm at 4 stacks. Therefore it is better to have a 20% CD up for the points where I'm taking the most damage, than to Vengeance whore to do dps that has never been necessary.

    Even when one of the Warriors gets mind controlled, the other can interrupt and one bladestorm is enough. We've never had a wipe to mind controls when we're stacked and even when both warriors are mind controlled I use Arcane Torrent and then all of them are broken out by locks, boomkins, our windwalker etc. Using Avenger's Shield means that it hits 2 out of the 3 mind controls if targetting Garrosh, 3 if you don't hit Garrosh, but staggered damage between all 4 mind controls isn't anywhere near as powerful as hitting all 4 with one ability, it allows for much smoother damage intake and is a lot easier to be dealt with afterwards. So even then AS isn't optimal for AoEing down 4 targets such as the mind controls. We dont even get empowered mind controls with our gear and half-decent transitions any more, even when we did they wrre straight forward enough that it didn't need me to do anything to them.

    Saying that Phase 3 isn't the tightest dps check of the fight is completely false. Phase 3 is where you bloodlust/timewarp etc and where the fight is at its hardest because you have to deal with fully empowered mechanics, it is meant to be the hardest part of the fight and still is by quite some distance.

  12. #2192
    Quote Originally Posted by Astur View Post
    I'm from Ascendance, on Draenor EU. We got the World 8th Garrosh 25 man Hc kill. So trying to say that my opinions don't matter at the cutting edge of progression is a bit of a false point.
    Sorry, should have clarified that I was referring to 10 man difficulty as 10 and 25 man difficulty is fundamentally different and tank dps also matter less in 25 man.

    You opinions are of course all valid, and I agree with them for 25 man, however they are not directly applicable to 10 man.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #2193
    ^ 25 tank dmg is completely different from 10. 10...you don't have tanks you have 8 dps and 2 of them just take the dmg.

  14. #2194
    Greetings fellow paladins.

    I have come with a request of help in the progress of siegecrafter blackfuse 25man heroic progress.

    First of all, here are some logs for you kind people.
    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uaquxryd5mkwmc8v/?s=12776&e=13232
    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1dxgxxjd33xlivar/?enc=wipes&boss=71504

    Also my armory.
    eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormreaver/Pikkukeiju/simple

    Cant post links :< sorry

    The biggest issue which i have is at around 5-6th stack of debuff, when the boss goes whoopass crazy with the attack speed, i receive hits for 600-800k for some unknown reasons, even though i ask for external cd's it is sometimes not enough and i just blow up like a silly dps.

    So i am asking for any tips / tricks to do on this boss so that we could actually kill it someday.

    Thanks.

    p.s
    Sorry about the thread i made, posting here might be more of a use

    Pikkukeiju - stormreaver
    Ebrius

  15. #2195
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sorry, should have clarified that I was referring to 10 man difficulty as 10 and 25 man difficulty is fundamentally different and tank dps also matter less in 25 man.

    You opinions are of course all valid, and I agree with them for 25 man, however they are not directly applicable to 10 man.
    That is one good thing about Mythic, that everyone will be raiding the same bosses at the same difficulty - rather than everything being split as it is today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Norbo View Post
    Greetings fellow paladins.

    I have come with a request of help in the progress of siegecrafter blackfuse 25man heroic progress.

    First of all, here are some logs for you kind people.
    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uaquxryd5mkwmc8v/?s=12776&e=13232
    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1dxgxxjd33xlivar/?enc=wipes&boss=71504

    Also my armory.
    eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormreaver/Pikkukeiju/simple

    Cant post links :< sorry

    The biggest issue which i have is at around 5-6th stack of debuff, when the boss goes whoopass crazy with the attack speed, i receive hits for 600-800k for some unknown reasons, even though i ask for external cd's it is sometimes not enough and i just blow up like a silly dps.

    So i am asking for any tips / tricks to do on this boss so that we could actually kill it someday.

    Thanks.

    p.s
    Sorry about the thread i made, posting here might be more of a use

    Pikkukeiju - stormreaver
    Ebrius
    Hi there, I don't have a lot of time this morning, but if you could explain what strategy you use with tank stats, its very hard for me to place what point in the fight you are having trouble as my guild use a very different strategy to what I believe to be the normal one, so it would be nice to know what is going on at the point in time where you are having trouble, for example the raid could be moving or there could be a certain weapon combo that doesn't help you in any way.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

  16. #2196
    Quote Originally Posted by Astur View Post
    That is one good thing about Mythic, that everyone will be raiding the same bosses at the same difficulty - rather than everything being split as it is today.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Hi there, I don't have a lot of time this morning, but if you could explain what strategy you use with tank stats, its very hard for me to place what point in the fight you are having trouble as my guild use a very different strategy to what I believe to be the normal one, so it would be nice to know what is going on at the point in time where you are having trouble, for example the raid could be moving or there could be a certain weapon combo that doesn't help you in any way.
    Hi.
    During the time i die, there is an overcharged magnet going around with the overcharged flame whilst the boss is enraged with attack speed, I believe its the 3rd weapon but i cant be certain about it.

    We go with the 3, 5 and 7 stack way with a warrior tank and we have yet to die to the actual stack but we do die to the auto attacks of boss and shredder.
    I do call ironbarks + use barkskin(symbiosis) during those times, yet i cant find the reason why the boss hits so hard even though I'm trying to keep 100% uptime on shield of righteousness during the enraged phases.

  17. #2197
    Field Marshal LuisKA's Avatar
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    If you want to make sure SoTR is always up for those oshit moments just go Holy Avenger. I find it really useful for this fight. Also, gaming the tank cloak can save you some CDs if you really need them later on (soaking marks on cloak and bubbling debuff).

    I think my strategy is a bit different than yours. I take every shredder but one, going like this: 3-shredder-5-shredder-6-shredder-reset(co-tank gets shredder at 7)-4-shredder-5-shredder-6-shredder-7 (boss usually dies here).

    By the time my cotank picks shredder there's magnet and fire going on, and this is where I pop my second HA (first is at 3mark shredder).

    Hope that helped!

  18. #2198
    During our first few kills, I tanked with one of our dps warriors who went prot, and we swapped on either 3 or 4 stacks throughout, making sure they reset between (Similar to the Method tactic). But now our Brewmaster has been tanking with me for the past 5 weeks or so (might be longer, I lose track of time during farm).

    We do the stacks where I take 3 stacks (take shredder pop HA + Wings), then he takes 2, I refresh to 4 (take shredder), then he takes the next one with 6 stacks and we rinse and repeat like that. I've found that for the enrages all I have to do is pool holy power so that I go into each enrage with 4-5 Holy power and can chain SotR for at least the first 6 seconds. Then I always make sure to watch his casts, because thats time where you don't want to waste SotR uptime, as Bigwigs is very good with the timers for these. Apart from that I have unglyphed DP for the stacks, and pop AD and GoAK on enrages when a stack is also coming. I've never had issues with it since the first 2-3 weeks, but during progress I had to be very careful with everything as we were pushing it with both tanks below 560 on the kill (I think, not 100% sure on this but I'm certain I was less than 560 ilvl).

    I would say that just trying to minamx SotR should be enough, but if you need HA as a defensive on the boss then feel free to use it, as for external cooldowns, if you have warriors make sure they use vigilance, a 30% CD is very strong, was really useful for us when we killed it. And as long as you're making use of things like Ironbark, Pain Suppresion then you'll be fine with a bit of practice. Siegecrafter is the kind of fight that people need to just get more and more used to so that they can begin to push out more numbers or be that little more careful. So just try and stick at it and see how things go, though I think you'll be fine when healers espescially get used to reacting to certain times in the fight - Magnets are often the worst for healers because they dont want to cast too much, but rather stay in a safe position, so feel free to plan defensives around that.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

  19. #2199
    Cheers for the tips,
    The way I'm going with the tanking is
    3 stacks (use dp on the 3rd stack), kill add get 4th stack with DP, get 5th stack with Vigi + ironbark, kill add. get 6th stack with guardian, kill add and get 7th with ardent defender(use 5 stack bastion of glory to heal myself instantly after it hits), then kill the 4th add at this point, i start resetting my stacks at this point while the warrior as 5th stack.
    Then its pure rinse and repeat he resets it at 7 as well while I'm at 5th and we keep going till the boss dies(hopefully).
    But we still die to the pure melee damage... even the warrior tank!

    So my question stands: Should we start rotating pain supression/ ironbark / hand of sacrifice during frenzy phases or something similiar?
    I can keep SotR up 100% during frenzy phases so that should not be the issue..

    Thanks.

  20. #2200
    You shouldn't die with 100% sotr uptime during enrages, but if you have spare cooldowns available then feel free to use them. If you have 5 healers (I guess you do) then maybe make sure that hots are just spread out or there is some sort of assignment so that you are being watched by healers
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

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