[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Goruks]

Greetings fellow paladins.

I have come with a request of help in the progress of siegecrafter blackfuse 25man heroic progress.

First of all, here are some logs for you kind people.
worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uaquxryd5mkwmc8v/?s=12776&e=13232
worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1dxgxxjd33xlivar/?enc=wipes&boss=71504

Also my armory.
eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormreaver/Pikkukeiju/simple

Cant post links :< sorry

The biggest issue which i have is at around 5-6th stack of debuff, when the boss goes whoopass crazy with the attack speed, i receive hits for 600-800k for some unknown reasons, even though i ask for external cd's it is sometimes not enough and i just blow up like a silly dps.

So i am asking for any tips / tricks to do on this boss so that we could actually kill it someday.

Thanks.

p.s
Sorry about the thread i made, posting here might be more of a use

Pikkukeiju - stormreaver
Ebrius

Tips:
- Holy Avenger
- Unglyphed Divine protection + CDR trinket + Unbreakable Spirit (if ur very timed sometimes its possible to cover 2 chained Electrostatic Charge if the boss cast sawnblade before electrostatic)
- devotion aura as personal cd (maybe glyph)

My rotation without external cds (3 stacks = ur fine can survive without cd; 4 stacks if ur full hp and got a absorv shield u ll survive too):
3 stacks = DP
4 stacks = Devotion Aura
5 stacks = DP
6 stacks = Ardent
7 stacks = Guardian
8 stacks = DP / maybe cape proc


if its hard u can try to use 3 tanks too, warrior tank can handle 10 stacks easy and kill all Shredder in seconds
when monk tank not tanking he can slow all mines waves

note: all external cds are used on warrior 6-7+ stacks

1 Electrostatic - warrior
2 Electrostatic - warrior
3 Electrostatic - warrior (3 stack) - ADD comes
4 Electrostatic - pally
5 Electrostatic - pally
6 Electrostatic - warrior (4 stack)
7 Electrostatic - warrior (5 stack) - Add comes
8 Electrostatic - pally
9 Electrostatic - pally (4 stacks) resset
10 Electrostatic - warrior (6 stacks) - add comes
11 Electrostatic - monk
12 Electrostatic - monk
13 Electrostatic - warrior (7 stacks) - add comes
14 Electrostatic - monk
15 Electrostatic - monk (4 stacks) resset
16 Electrostatic - warrior (8 stacks) - add comes
17 Electrostatic - pally
18 Electrostatic - pally
19 Electrostatic - warrior (9 stacks) - add comes
20 Electrostatic - pally
21 Electrostatic - pally (4 stacks)
22 Electrostatic - warrior (10 stacks) - add comes
23 Electrostatic - pally (5 stacks)
24 Electrostatic - pally (6 stacks)
25 Electrostatic - pally (7 stacks) - add comes pally kill this one
26 Electrostatic - warrior (0 stacks)
boss die

[Deleted]

^ 25 tank dmg is completely different from 10. 10...you don't have tanks you have 8 dps and 2 of them just take the dmg.

It's not like tanks tend to do more dmg in 10man than in 25man raids. I feel it is completely opposite if you dont count the "vengeance soak" setups in 10man.

[Jellospally]

It's not like tanks tend to do more dmg in 10man than in 25man raids. I feel it is completely opposite if you dont count the "vengeance soak" setups in 10man.

No I agree 10 tanks will basically never do the dmg of 25 tanks due to the vengeance. I tank a 25 normal run on my warrior and get more vengeance on every fight than 10H on my pally. Which alone is the difference in tank dmg.

Mainly I just meant that 10 man tanks usually need to work for their dmg to help with enrages and pushing bosses at the right time as Firefly was mentioning with H Garrosh 10.

[Deleted]

No I agree 10 tanks will basically never do the dmg of 25 tanks due to the vengeance. I tank a 25 normal run on my warrior and get more vengeance on every fight than 10H on my pally. Which alone is the difference in tank dmg.

Mainly I just meant that 10 man tanks usually need to work for their dmg to help with enrages and pushing bosses at the right time as Firefly was mentioning with H Garrosh 10.

Precisely. Just comparing our first kill with a random 25 man kill.

Our 10 man:

Tanks: 25% (12.5% per tank)
Healers: 7.5% (3.75% per healer)
DPS: 67.5% (11.25% per dps)

Random 25 man kill using 4 healers, 2 tanks, 1 tank kiter and 18 dps
(not counting 3rd tank that was a kiter only doing 100k dps)

Tanks: 10% (5% per tank)
Healers: 2% (0.5% per healer)
DPS: 88% (4.8% per dps)

Now it was probably not fair since the 25 man kill was not a first kill, so their healers was probably slacking on the damage. Expecting that healers could probably have done atleast 4-5% of the damage I guess or something like that. But what is important here is to look at the tank and dps ratios. First thing you notice, is that a tank increasing his dps by 20% is actually a bigger increase than a dps doing so, and it is often easier for the tank to do so. If a dps was doing 20% less than he could be doing he would be benched instantly. But why it is less of an issue in 25 man than 10 man, is that it is easier for the tanks to get carried in 25 man. It is just less noticeable. A tank once again increasing his dps by 20% would increase the raid dps in a 10 man by almost 2.5% whilst in a 25 man it would barely be 1%. This is the reason while tank dps is far more important in 10 than 25 man. It is of course also important in 25 man.

Also highly important is the difference in tank damage in-take between 10 and 25 man. Which is why you can never really compare the two. I have no experience from tanking HC garrosh in 25 man, so just gonna take the word of the previous 25 man poster that for example said that garrosh hits hard in P4, in comparison to 10 man where you dont even notice it is on heroic in P4, he scratches the tank like a kitten. The dynamics of the having a higher damage in-take and offensive output being less important in 25 man makes comparing the difficulties kinda pointless. It is two seperate fights basically. The fact that 25 mans kite the adds instead of kills them alone makes a huge difference to the fight.

[Deleted]

If, in my guild, we were ever struggling on a dps check, then I would try and maximise my damage output, but Garrosh on 25 man only really has 3 sort-of dps checks.
Phase 1 requires the raid to have enough AoE to kill the Warbringers at a decent rate. We didn't knock them back into the ironstar at all, we never tried doing it, and we never struggled with AoE in that phase, we had phase 1 nailed in the first half of the first night of progress.

Phase 2 has no real dps check, boss damage is irrelevant simply because you just need to make sure you don't get the crane temple, and we were never ever anywhere close - the jade temple has a dps check, but its not very tight and we managed to sort jade temple out by the middle of the second night on Garrosh, what was far more important was cleaning up interrupts and assignments. Therefore, with no dps check whatsoever, it seemed a waste to actively try and take more damage to gain vengeance during the annihilate phase, when doing so would mean i wouldn't have cooldowns available for the 'oh shit' moments that honestly rarely ever occur, but I always feel they are nice to save just in case shit hits the fan.

Phase 3 is simply about getting out of the Phase as quickly as possible, with our Brewmaster kiting the adds it was never even an issue to just simply get the boss down - the only thing we struggled with was Mind controls whenever the raid was spread (normally shortly after Whirling + Devastate) and by the end of progress we were skipping the last Mind controls of that phase - which meant we had a lot more clean tries going into Phase 4.

Phase 4 doesn't really have a dps check either, we killed Garrosh moments before having to interrupt him with the second ironstar.

However as we went through with progress I always tried to set my character up so that it was ready for the next part of the fight, rather than the ones that we weren't struggling with in any way.

So intially I didn't have focused shield and had unglyphed DP (thinking of Phase 1, using DP on Ironstar explosions) and then up until we were progressing on Phase 3 I kept my glyphs the same, but as soon as we were hitting Phase three I switched to Focused Shield to maximise what I was doing in Phase 3, because we could comfortably handle Phases 1 and 2.

Then as we went into Phase 4, because I was tanking the boss I switched to the DP glyph because all of the tank damage is Physical in that Phase and I didn't need the Glyph slot for anything else.

I find that generally, if you can optimise your character for the last phase of any encounter that you are progressing on, then practice will be more important for the earlier phases, and squeezing out what you can for the last Phase becomes more and more important. I am pretty sure that I was sitting on 400k dps for Phase 4 of the fight during our very first kill and was top for that Phase. The changes I made wouldn't have made much of a difference, but to me it made more sense to set my character up for the phase we hadn't been getting past to make that phase as easy as possible.

[Deleted]

Hello Prot Pallys.

I have a gear question for those of you who have tanked Garrosh. I'm normally a Holy Paladin, but my tank offspec is at 548. A bit low but we tried me tanking Garrosh last night and our prot warr went dps. I've got T16 4Set Bonus and the Juggernaut lifesteal trinket.

When I tanked Garrosh last night I did fine until the after the first intermission phase and then I died after we came out of the intermission and he threw the first axe down. I would post the log but unfortunately it got screwed up by our logger going into LFR and distorting the figures and it cut off where I died. What I saw on my death meter however is I got hit by Garrosh's attack for 447K then 477K then another hit for 150K and I was down. I have 899K HP as a tank with stam food and flask.

I think lack of healing could of played a part in it since I did 49% of the total healing on myself. However, I want to know its wise to use less straight haste gemming for this fight and maybe go for some stam/haste gems and perhaps pick up a stamina trinket ?

From the experience last night I know I need to time the use of my Divine Protection better to utilize the bonus that the set offers. Otherwise as a healer main spec my EF is always on.

If you have any general advice also for tanking this fight what tricks for surviving you use I would appreciate it because I will be in front of him again on Thursday/Tuesday this coming week.

Apologies If I've posted this in the wrong thread I'm a bit of a mmo champion noob

[celinamuna]

Stop using IJ trinket since it's bad.
Personal pref, but i don't EF unless i have 5 stacks of bastion (sometimes might go for 4, if healing is really needed at that moment)
Most of the time you're going to do 50%+ healing on yourself (or mb it's just me).
Sotr uptime on that fight is a king, since we don't really have any "burst dmg" phases, i personally go for divine purpose on that fight.

[Teddybird]

What I saw on my death meter however is I got hit by Garrosh's attack for 447K then 477K then another hit for 150K and I was down. I have 899K HP as a tank with stam food and flask.

As above said haste is king, at 9/14 ive only got around 940k give or take and am using 1 stam trinket. If your in need of a quick trinket can either get thoks or try and get horridons, far as number i did for myself (im no thoerycraft expert) but Heroic horridon trinket gives me more haste than thoks normal (both 2/2) so if you need to try get one in short time its a good item to shoot for.

I think lack of healing could of played a part in it since I did 49% of the total healing on myself. However, I want to know its wise to use less straight haste gemming for this fight and maybe go for some stam/haste gems and perhaps pick up a stamina trinket ?

Numbers off a bit as most of our team half hc geared, but last garrosh kill is did 52.8% of the healing i received so that's about right.



Far as tips for coming out of the realm i honestly cant think of anything that jumps to mind, move boss and swap of 4stack is what we do and never had a tank death there, or even risk of tank death. Garrosh avg melee swing in that fight hit for 262k for us so guessing SoTR uptime.

Might be worth posting your Amory in tank gear to check stats.

/Rose

[Brummie]

Hello Prot Pallys.

I have a gear question for those of you who have tanked Garrosh. I'm normally a Holy Paladin, but my tank offspec is at 548. A bit low but we tried me tanking Garrosh last night and our prot warr went dps. I've got T16 4Set Bonus and the Juggernaut lifesteal trinket.

When I tanked Garrosh last night I did fine until the after the first intermission phase and then I died after we came out of the intermission and he threw the first axe down. I would post the log but unfortunately it got screwed up by our logger going into LFR and distorting the figures and it cut off where I died. What I saw on my death meter however is I got hit by Garrosh's attack for 447K then 477K then another hit for 150K and I was down. I have 899K HP as a tank with stam food and flask.

I think lack of healing could of played a part in it since I did 49% of the total healing on myself. However, I want to know its wise to use less straight haste gemming for this fight and maybe go for some stam/haste gems and perhaps pick up a stamina trinket ?

From the experience last night I know I need to time the use of my Divine Protection better to utilize the bonus that the set offers. Otherwise as a healer main spec my EF is always on.

If you have any general advice also for tanking this fight what tricks for surviving you use I would appreciate it because I will be in front of him again on Thursday/Tuesday this coming week.

Apologies If I've posted this in the wrong thread I'm a bit of a mmo champion noob

I also recall being a bit squishy on our first kill when coming out of the transition phases, pretty sure u will have guardian up each time u come out so u should pop that. I think the issue with those parts of the fight is that every1 is on the move (going to designated stack raid marker) so u don't get many heals for a few seconds. But ur more exp'ed tank should be picking him up after each transiton as he knows exactly how to handle it. You could also pool 5 hp just b4 the transition ends so u can chain 2 sotr as soon as you start next phase.

[Deleted]

Numbers off a bit as most of our team half hc geared, but last garrosh kill is did 52.8% of the healing i received so that's about right.

Yeah, I was doing on average 55% of the healing on myself on H Garrosh Progression, and I was barely using EF. Had 19% uptime on EF and still did 55% healing on myself, so nothing wrong with being at 49%, even sounds like you are getting more attention from healers than you should neeed.

- - - Updated - - -

If, in my guild, we were ever struggling on a dps check, then I would try and maximise my damage output, but Garrosh on 25 man only really has 3 sort-of dps checks.

But the problem is that you are comparing apples and oranges. Most people in this thread has been referring to 10 man, and 25 man is nowhere near close to that. What you said you found easy and what you found hard is pretty much the exact opposite of what we found hard.

P1 was by far the hardest part of the fight for our raid team, having the tightest dps and positioning check. If P1 and P3 would have switched place the fight would have been a nightmare.We probably had 10x more wipes in P1 than P3.

Also P2 was one of the phases were we needed to push out as much dps as we could. It is not just about skipping the third transition, there are much more subtle breakpoints that really benefit the raid to hit. P1 and P2 was probably the phases that our raid leader shouted at us the most to push more dps, and as such standing in annihilates was not even a question, as in 10 man you do not need any cds on any other part of the fight (maybe you do in 25 man i dont know). When we first starting hitting the second transition we were 20% short of where we wanted to be. Maximizing dps in P2 was something that we spent a lot of time on.

The dps requirements is completely different for 10 and 25 garrosh, as is the tank damage and as is how large % of the raid damage the tanks provide. You simply cant compare the two.

And, not to start a 10v25 debate, but if you look at it objectively, just as paragons is a lot easier on 10 man than on 25 man, garrosh is a lot easier on 25 man than 10 man. Dont really want to start that debate, as overall this tier was pretty fair, but just saying that your 25 man experiences are not applicable for 10 man as a lot of the parts on the fights is a lot tighter to execute and you did not have the same problems as some of the "hard" parts dont even exist in 25 man.

[celinamuna]

I wonder if we're going to notice the difference in the 20m raiders playstyle next expansion, based on if they were 10 or 25 man raiders this expansion (tanks specifically)

[Deleted]

I wonder if we're going to notice the difference in the 20m raiders playstyle next expansion, based on if they were 10 or 25 man raiders this expansion (tanks specifically)

Hmm, possibly. Also depends on how it is tuned.
But as you say, will be interesting to see.

Completely generally speaing, if it is tuned between 10 and 25 man today, I would expect "10 man tanks" to have a harder time at first due to having to get used to increased damage. So 25 man tanks would probably do a better job at first, however I do think that 10 man tanks would have better mileage once they get used to it as 10 man tanks have had to focus more on maximizing throughput and thinking outside the box.

[celinamuna]

Hmm, possibly. Also depends on how it is tuned.
But as you say, will be interesting to see.

Completely generally speaing, if it is tuned between 10 and 25 man today, I would expect "10 man tanks" to have a harder time at first due to having to get used to increased damage. So 25 man tanks would probably do a better job at first, however I do think that 10 man tanks would have better mileage once they get used to it as 10 man tanks have had to focus more on maximizing throughput and thinking outside the box.

Hmm idk, the idea that the healers will actually put me on raid frames (or i'll get more splash healing) makes me somewhat happy.

[Jellospally]

Hmm

Completely unrelated to this thread(sorta?) but I see you guys just recently killed blackfuse...just got it tonight on my alt pally and we also 1 healed but we did a burn strat and killed it in 5 belts lol i saw your guys video...our players couldnt do the mechanics to do it any other way lol 340 attempts later its dead too long.

[celinamuna]

Completely unrelated to this thread(sorta?) but I see you guys just recently killed blackfuse...just got it tonight on my alt pally and we also 1 healed but we did a burn strat and killed it in 5 belts lol i saw your guys video...our players couldnt do the mechanics to do it any other way lol 340 attempts later its dead too long.

Since this is a public forum i'd just like to point out that this was the easiest fight this tier so far and none of our players died to mechanics at all <_<.
Tbh i feel like if you can 1 heal (and esp if your healer is mw/disc) you should be doing the burn strat.
Combined with the fact that you can just send Hunter/WW/Warlock (not sure about last one) on belts for every single one of em you have 5 pure dps on boss the entire time, combined with the fact that ideally your healer can also do some dps on him + tanks, he should be dying fairly quickly.
(Plus that moment when mines randomly explode on tanks <_< )

And tbh it's not that bad, really, if we didn't need to replace 2 dps and a tank boss would've died ~3 weeks ago.

[Moussaka]

Tanking can sometimes be frustrating during progression.
We are not that far into heroic, only got Norushen down and now working on Sha.
In a couple of tries you know everything what to do as a tank (let's be honest on Norushen and Sha it's almost static tanking and you are nowhere near to die from boss melees or abilities).
Now only things I can work on is dps and maybe help healers in some way. Whereas the rest of the group has to cope with mechanics. Be it easy or not.
Hopefully it will go down this week, better late than not.
Boring nonetheless.

[Deleted]

I really enjoyed siegecrafter tbh. Actually doing the fight and its mechanics has its charms

What item level are you guys doing it zerg style sitting on?

[Nillo]

I really enjoyed siegecrafter tbh. Actually doing the fight and its mechanics has its charms

Ewwww I really hate it. It's the same thing every attempt and we almost always wipe to fails on the belt - or people placing every single shredder damaging ability next to the boss to make the second add near impossible to kill in time /:

[Deleted]

Ewwww I really hate it. It's the same thing every attempt and we almost always wipe to fails on the belt - or people placing every single shredder damaging ability next to the boss to make the second add near impossible to kill in time /:

Yeah, it gets annoying when you got your part "down", and other people are failing over and over again. But all in all I found the fight to be engaging and felt like my performance mattered on it. Didnt feel like a meatwall. A lot of abilities to watch out for etc, so a lot to do. 350 wipes was a bit much, felt like it was a kill after 200 but, people...

The second shreddar? Shouldnt you have 4 stacks by then? Or how are you rotating stacks? When I was killing the first and second shreddar with 3 and 4 stacks respecitvely, I used Wings on the first one + abused a sawblade and used HA for the damage boost on the second one to kill it reliably. I could kill it without HA but would sometimes get 4 overloads then so switched to HA to reliably have the burst to get 3 overloads every time.

Cant remember if I used wings or ha on the first/second, but used one on each atleast.

[celinamuna]

I really enjoyed siegecrafter tbh. Actually doing the fight and its mechanics has its charms

What item level are you guys doing it zerg style sitting on?

I know it could've worked for us at 570.

Ewwww I really hate it. It's the same thing every attempt and we almost always wipe to fails on the belt - or people placing every single shredder damaging ability next to the boss to make the second add near impossible to kill in time /:

Hmmm ? we always (i think after first shredder) tank him on top of the boss.