[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Deleted]

You did get full veng, just you couldn't attack for the duration which was the problem. But it allowed me to soak ~3 annihilates for "free" after which point i could break out, pop cds and continue dpsing. (I Flash Healed ppl during those 2 cycles of annihilates :> )

Thats weird as vengeace should be calculated as any overattack damage should not give you vengeance so you should only get about 60-70% vengeance compared to without BoP.

Anyways, does not sound worth it if you cant dps.

[celinamuna]

Thats weird as vengeace should be calculated as any overattack damage should not give you vengeance so you should only get about 60-70% vengeance compared to without BoP.

Anyways, does not sound worth it if you cant dps.

It depended on how quickly you push it, if it lasts for longer than your cds are, it might be worth it, esp at the start to help up the healer a lil bit.

[Mayoxd]

I have a question, is it worth getting the 4 pc set with 40% haste but with a flex tier legs (which has terrible stats) or have a 2pc with 49.92% haste with elixir+food?

Here's what my gear looks like for now:us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gorgonnash/Instagram/simple

[Deleted]

I personally wouldnt but a lot of people here would. It depends how much you rely on the 4p and how comfortable you are with tanking.

Its really not a question we can answer for you, you need to figure it out yourself what fits you the best.

[Deleted]

Much like Firefly, I have a deep-seated loathing for the 4-set. It removes the opportunity cost of EF, which both makes said spell boring and lowers the overall skill floor for prot.

That said, the 4-set coupled with the WoG glyph and DP can pull off some pretty ridiculous stunts, and if you aren't even going to hit the GCD cap with elixir and food, just take the 4-set - it should feel smoother overall if you fish properly with DP.

[Deleted]

Much like Firefly, I have a deep-seated loathing for the 4-set. It removes the opportunity cost of EF, which both makes said spell boring and lowers the overall skill floor for prot.

My bigger problem is that it limits the survivability roof by worse itemization which I simply do not find it worth during progress to push out extra dps on the lowest dps tank class. If you want more tank damage, let your other tank tank.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000
speaks for itself.

That said, if you cant reach that roof then maybe you are better with the 4p.

[Mayoxd]

Thanks for the replies. I found that having the 2pc and 49% haste a bit better than having lower haste and 4 piece.

Another question regarding 4pc, when it procs, do you use it on yourself if EF will heal better or just use it on other raid members? I've been reading about prot but I've yet to see a guide or some pointers on when to use the 4pc when it procs. Sorry for the noobish questions.

[Kortane]

Thanks for the replies. I found that having the 2pc and 49% haste a bit better than having lower haste and 4 piece.

Another question regarding 4pc, when it procs, do you use it on yourself if EF will heal better or just use it on other raid members? I've been reading about prot but I've yet to see a guide or some pointers on when to use the 4pc when it procs. Sorry for the noobish questions.

The EF is only free when you heal yourself with it. If you want to heal others, you still need to use holy power.

[celinamuna]

If you want more tank damage, let your other tank tank.

Unless you're lazel or jello :>
And idk, we can see that paladins have a higher potential than what seems to be all other tanks, just in order to reach it, you have to outskill the competition by a mile.

[Deleted]

Its because paladins have way more survival than other classes which results in more vengeance whoring :P

It depends how you judge the survival really. Paladins probably have the best tools to cheese some big hits other than maybe monks, but overall survival I would say that monks, warriors and druids are miles ahead of paladins. You noticed this really well on fights like Paragons, just have far behind paladins survival was to the other tanks on high melee damage.
Paladins are more self substained though than the other classes, so we got that going for us.

I think it is exactly this actually. Most other classes can whore and play close to their maximum DPS output while progressing. However paladins needs to play much more conservatively due to their lower survival which means that paladins rise more once the content get on farm since they can start whoring like the other classes do.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless you're lazel or jello :>
And idk, we can see that paladins have a higher potential than what seems to be all other tanks, just in order to reach it, you have to outskill the competition by a mile.

This is true. Paladins is probably the class with the highest skill cap. Even so, checking the 10th log of each class
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000
Paladins are still the runt of the litter, but it is closer.

This was most obvious in ToT when paladins were like 4th as tank overall, but had most of the rank 1 logs.

[celinamuna]

All i need to do is pick 99th percentile and we're gods once again :>

[Deleted]

All i need to do is pick 99th percentile and we're gods once again :>

99th percetile off top 100? That is not really reliable What I showed was 90th percentile of top 100. That is unreliable enough. I usually just check the default of top 100. That is still like the 99.5th percentile of the overall.

[Deleted]

Percentile means nothing ><.

Depends how you use it. What percentile you rank on for example epeenbot is not highly relevant. But percentiles when comparing different specs is.

[Gothmog]

but overall survival I would say that monks, warriors and druids are miles ahead of paladins. You noticed this really well on fights like Paragons, just have far behind paladins survival was to the other tanks on high melee damage.

I strongly disagree with this.
Progressed 12/13 10hc on pally, had enough tries on Garrosh to see it's nothing very specialy that relates to pally tanking.
Then swapped to bear for Iron Star p4 kiting.
Continued swapping between Guardian and Pally, both on 574-575.
Can't speak much for monk, 550 and only normals, cba pugging hc.

I find survivability better on pally than guardian by a decent chunk. It wasn't really noticable before Paragons 25hc, which are the first boss that hits pretty hard, but tanking that with a guardian is a lot spikier and more dangerous than on pally. Simply having the SotR uptime in hastecap numbers is absolutely amazing, the chances of getting gibbed are miniscule. Haste capped, but no 4piece.

I've yet to try solotanking Thok on Guardian and I'm sure it's quite a lot harder than with a pally. But I sincerely doubt any tanking class has it as easy/reliable there as a paladin. Perhaps monk with relatively high mastery, but other classes.. no.
Sure, that's only one fight that SotR's duration and frequency coincides very well with. But it's one of the few that packs a punch in SoO.

Generally, what I find is a huge strength for pallies is EF and high vengeance. Its healing power & frenquency is huge, considering its cost. Assuming no 4p, 3HP every 30 seconds is such a tremendous bang for the buck, it's absurd. Not to mention off GCD. With 4p, it's on the Divine Star OPness, with no equal in tank role. Anyone remembers Theck finding out that at high enough vengeance (feasible in dangerous SoO encounters) it starts healing for more than damage intake. Add SoI healing for 250k+ and the absolute ease of spending resources (timing still matters massively ofc) that is really only on SotR... amazing.

Other tanks generally have to spend a whole lot more resources to heal themselves.

[Deleted]

I strongly disagree with this.
Progressed 12/13 10hc on pally, had enough tries on Garrosh to see it's nothing very specialy that relates to pally tanking.
Then swapped to bear for Iron Star p4 kiting.
Continued swapping between Guardian and Pally, both on 574-575.
Can't speak much for monk, 550 and only normals, cba pugging hc..

Really irrelevant gear levels for speaking about survival.
Paladins have extremely high substainability which is good when you are overgearing the content. Do not mistake that for survival.

Paragons is the boss where you really notice the lack of paladin survivability. Any other tank class bar death knights is just miles better than a paladin on Paragons. I mean, that is pretty much exactly what I said in my last post. Paladins dps increases when they overgear encounters and can stop focusing on survival.

Paladins is great for bosses that hit for nothing do to our self healing, but not as much for the harder bosses. Self healing really does not matter when bosses hit you for 95% of your maximum health.

[celinamuna]

Idk, my paladin is still not at 574 :<
But at this point class survival becomes a moot point.
And idk, i feel like druids are a lot more stable, simply because they're much less reliant on AM.

[Gothmog]

Well, obviously I wasn't progressing 10hc with 575. I was doing that in 550 with 30% haste because all I got was dodge gear at start.

Agreed with you on sustainability. But as for survivability...
I don't think I'll change your mind, but from personal experience, from experiencing the instance on very similar level on guardian and prot paladin, thank you, I'll take paladin to an encounter I don't overgear anytime. Partly because of next-to-no-cost selfhealing (sustainability). Partly because AM is reliable, on demand and still frequent enough. Partly because damage intake is smooth and when you DO dip, your healers aren't worrying because EF will get you up in a jiffy anyway.
I don't know what boss you DO want to consider, because obviously, quite a lot of them are very trivial as far as tanking goes. Done properly, everything up to Juggernaut can be discounted. Nazgrim's execute is completely trivial to a paladin. Not so to a Guardian. On Malkorok we can both hoard resources during Smashes, but I suspect Guardian may be better off - Ancient Miasma removes a lot of RNG. Spoils are trivial. Thok - no contest, as far as survival goes, Guardian can't compete. Siegecrafter is again fairly trivial if you're not pushing stacks. Protective Frenzy actually hurts in 25m, but either class can deal with it well if they're handling resources well. Paragons...

Paragons is the boss where you really notice the lack of paladin survivability. Any other tank class bar death knights is just miles better than a paladin on Paragons. I mean, that is pretty much exactly what I said in my last post. Paladins dps increases when they overgear encounters and can stop focusing on survival.

Just what are you on about?
I've read many of your posts on these forums in the past, but this thread I'm just not seeing what you're seeing.
Paladin dps doesn't have heck of a lot to do with being able to stop focusing on survival. Certainly nowhere near what Guardian, DK or Warrior can. Heck, even monks! Guardian and Warr can funnel all their rage into Maul/HS. DK can sacrifice the most, blow his mitigation to do damage. Monk can stop purifying and uses all his chi for Blackout Kick.
What does a paladin do to increase his dps at the cost of survivability? take crit instead of mastery. That's about it. You still want hastecap whether you're going for mitigation or damage. You still want usual rotation because most HP is both best mitigation as well as damage output (a case could be made for Holy Wrath). We've nothing else.

And why, may I ask, is any other tank (other than a DK, agreed there for sure) so much better on Paragons than a pally?
Again, I can only directly speak for Guardian-paladin comparison, of which I've first hand experience in. I was 572 at the time, still with plenty of dodge+parry gear. And I felt a heck of a lot safer than I do on guardian now.
Yes, Guardians are more sturdy if everyone stopped pushing their buttons. But when you get hit 3 times in a row by Kil'ruk or Karoz through SD up, you better be quick on reacting to that, no matter your gear level. I'm not saying it's rocket science. But compared to pally where there's no dilemma to be had as to what you want to push... since EF is up anyway and SotR is best (only) choice in the matter - and with the haste we're rocking now, the only choice is deciding whether you'll take another unmitigated swing or SotR before it.


Please elaborate on your statements because as they stand now, I feel they're arbitrarily dragged out of nowhere.
Also, preferable experience with other tank classes - hanging out a claim that pallies suck on a given encounter means little if you've nothing to compare it to. I know 3 very well (druid, pally, monk), am decently familiar with warrior and don't have firsthand experience with DK (but have tanked this tier alongside one).

Paladins is great for bosses that hit for nothing do to our self healing, but not as much for the harder bosses. Self healing really does not matter when bosses hit you for 95% of your maximum health.

And what is this, seriously?
Pallies are the one tank class that scale with Vengeance insanely well. Our damage output gets actually decent at 300/350k+ and selfhealing goes through the roof at around the same number or more. I'm sure most of you have tanked Thok waaaay past the time the whole raid died. How many other tanks do you think can do this as easily as us?

The only boss in the entire instance that has the capability to gib you at any time, without headnotice if you don't have AM up is Kil'ruk the Windreaver. Everything else is predictable and can be SotR'd or CD'd against. And so on any other boss, if you do get 95%+ of your HP blown away in one go, you've fucked up something.
And don't get me wrong, that matters. All of us have fucked up and wiped the raid now and again, so having a "safe" tank that isn't completely reliant on AM is a good thing. Imagine monk's shuffle working and having the uptime as our SotR. That would be a glass cannon. But that's where being able to anticipate damage comes in.

[celinamuna]

>remembers 1.1m Locust's melees
>remembers ~800k skeer's melees

I can see warriors being stronger on paragons (longer AM for Rik'kal) plus better scaling for when going into scorpion and having more ways to survive during Korven's assault (probably the most dangerous part of the fight as a tank until last 2 or so bosses), since they don't rely on SoI healing which stops coming in.

Furthermore maximum SotR uptime != maximum dps, and if using 4pc you'd also EF once you reach 3 stacks instead of 5 for bastion (which is a fairly noticeable difference)

[celinamuna]

Guardian1Mdpsplz.
Like i said, atm looking at logs, there's 3 paladins who atm can parse to the full potential (jello, lazel and fraggo).
And then there's everyone else :X

[Hntr]

I've yet to try solotanking Thok on Guardian and I'm sure it's quite a lot harder than with a pally. But I sincerely doubt any tanking class has it as easy/reliable there as a paladin. Perhaps monk with relatively high mastery, but other classes.. no.

And what is this, seriously?
Pallies are the one tank class that scale with Vengeance insanely well. Our damage output gets actually decent at 300/350k+ and selfhealing goes through the roof at around the same number or more. I'm sure most of you have tanked Thok waaaay past the time the whole raid died. How many other tanks do you think can do this as easily as us?

lol do you even tank with other classes? Warrior outshines pallies on so many levels.
both my pally and warrior are around the same gear level (my warrior is a little better geared) and i solo tanked thok in 10hc with both toons.
I found it to be so much easier to survive as warrior, because generally speaking absorbs > heal. not to mention that i required less externals as warrior.
and i also kept on tanking for quite some time while the whole raid was dead as warrior.
and warriors dps is also so much better at high vengeance. with my pally i would get around 300-350k dps after the first p1, but with my warrior easily 400-450k if not more.