[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Gothmog]

IDD.. what externals as a paladin? None are needed. Without 4piece, it's -handy- to have something to bridge the 3 HP blown on EF, but even that is not necessary.
And, as Lazel said, I'm quite sure Pallies were among the first to solotank it regularily, consistently during actual progress in 10m. Along with monks of course.

Otherwise, I am curious about your warrior logs for solotank, if you could link any, I'd be interested in looking through them. Especially the healing done&taken.
Admittedly, I haven't played warrior on a heroic level, but they seem a lot less selfreliant than pallies, but with really low overall damage taken. I assume you can't block Deafening Screech?

Pallies do 60-70% of healing taken by themselves (varies by vengeance levels) in p1. All other sources are passive/smart/splash, whathave you.

What Acceleration/Panic stacks do you go to in p1?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

You can't block Deafening Screech, but Shield Barrier absorbs a metric fuckton of damage at those vengeance levels.

[Deleted]

Guardian1Mdpsplz.
Like i said, atm looking at logs, there's 3 paladins who atm can parse to the full potential (jello, lazel and fraggo).
And then there's everyone else :X

Im not playing tank anymore
Or playing for that matter

Actually gonna try to pick up raiding on my resto druid or hunter again now. So bored of tanking this tier.
Just logged in to my paladin to try and find some good pug groups for them. Since it is easier to find groups on my paladin because my alts are like in F&F guilds and my paladin in hardcore guild. A protection paladin guy whispers me "Hey, Mr. Haste! Long time no see! I love you man". Made me rofl a bit.

[Deleted]

I play on EU As much as logging in once every week to try to get mounts that never drops counts as playing

[celinamuna]

Firefly come play resto druid with us on NA servers :>

Lazel, what card ?

[Deleted]

So going back to what I said about paladins and survivability and stuff. Been slacking a bit with replies. I am referring to progress state paladins, not farm state. Paladins as a class develops more than other tanks once bosses become on farm due to our self healing.
I make a clear distinction between survivability and substainability. Paladins no doubt got the highest substainability of all tank classes. This makes them the best tank class once survival is not an issue. This tier overall has not threatened survival that much. Which means paladins have been really solid tanks. You guys probably did not notice the survival issues that paladins have if you had high item level when doing the bosses. I had 543 item level for every boss until siegecrafter heroic. And even then I felt like I was overgearing a lot of the earlier bosses. If you had above 555-560 for Paragons you probably never noticed the issues paladins had on Paragons aswell. Paladins becomes far stronger than the other classes due to their selfsubstainability when you pass around I would say 540 for the first 10 heroics, 550 for thok and siege, 560-565ish for Paragons and Garrosh. Paladins thrive on the higher item levels just because survival is no longer an issue. Bosses were really wet noodles this expansion. The only other drawback paladins had during progression was their lack of DPS, which paladins were really far behind other tank classes while content were still progression. Paladins can for sure recover and be as good if not better than a few other classes once it boils down to competing about ranks, but that is not really what I refer to when I talk about tanking. I think more of the progression state the the farm state since everything feels kinda irrelevant once its on farm.

What makes me say that paladins overall are weak on survival is that we have by far the lowest passive damage reduction. Low armor, low health, low passive reduction. Sure, our active reduction are probably the strongest. This again makes paladins super strong on farm, but on progression that up and down nature was not the best. SotR is awesome and great, but you cant possibly cover everything with it. What was interesting was not how awesome SotR is when it is up, but how squishy we were when it was down. No tank has a problem surviving when their AM is up, but paladins were the weakest tank when our AM was down. Or well, when talking about tanks I do not include DKs. DKs go dps

Lets take Paragons of the Klaxxi in this example as I mentioned earlier. Sure paladins were great when we start getting 565 item level there. I would have changed my paladin for any other tank class in a heartbeat when we were there at 550ish. Kil'Ruk for sure was, a bitch, but even more so Ka'roz, oh my god. I never had any problems with Skeer. In the start I was tanking Ka'roz but after a night of progression we realised that swapping that around was beneficial. The problems where as I mentioned before is not that SotR is weak, it is that paladins are weak when it is down. I could probably keep 80-90% SotR uptime when Ka'roz was actually hitting by banking Holy Power when he was not. But it was those last 10-20% that were the dealbreaker. Most of those 80-90% went completely unmitigated. We did multiple tests mid fight on Ka'roz, since we killed him kinda early. So we are not even talking in the end here.

Ka'roz was hitting me for well over 900k unmitigated, at the same time he hit our warrior for 750k unmitigated in the same gear levels. I only had 980kish HP at the time. No matter how good you play, you will take an unmitigated hit. It does not matter if he hits me for 400k with SotR up and the warrior 500k with his stuff up. Even so, the warrior had a far less chance at recieving a full hit due to his higher block/dodge/parry chance and relatively high uptime on SotR.

This drawback of paladins that we are so much more vurnable when our mitigation is down really made paladins survivability that much worse than other tanks during progression when our survival was actually threatened. When you reach that point that your survival is fine even with mitigation down, then yes, paladins have great substainability. Most of you probably killed the bosses at this point.
But when survival actually mattered, paladins were squishier than other tanks. It is pretty hard to argue against this since it is pretty hard facts that paladins have the lowest passive damage reduction by far of all tanks.

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Firefly come play resto druid with us on NA servers :>

I will write on my green card application "I just wanna raid with my resto druid"

[celinamuna]

Pshhh, look at treckie, he's doing it :P
Y u no cooler than him ? #Glorious10ManMasterRace

[celinamuna]

I meant actual model :P

[Gothmog]

OK, I getcha what you're saying now, about survival when SotR is not up. I agree, although I haven't experienced it to the degree you're describing (simple grace of higher ilvl), but 543 for Siegecrafter and onwards is most definitely undergearing the content. 543 was merely full ToT hc upgraded gear, without the cloak. I suspect I'd be pretty annoyed if I were in your boots on that situation as well.

I tanked 10m Paragons with (more than enough geared) pally and it was safe as.. But LOL, my DK OT who was taking Kil'ruk, hahah, poor guy, truly. He's a magnificent player, but some class limitations you simply can't outplay. Quite literally, getting oneshot for 1.3 million (we watched the recording afterward) you can't reliably guard against, since it's RNG when it's coming. In that way, tanking Karoz was a breeze with good haste, banking HP and bridging the gap with DivProt.
Your eloquently described does show how outdated Mastery route is for us in an encounter like Paragons, unless you're massively outgearing it.

The statement that pallies are best tanks once survivability is not an issue.. yeah, can be in some situations, if you opt to drop healers for dps, making the fight shorter (and easier). Or you could toss in a different tank with higher dps and without survivability issues. Dubious which is better, both are valid choices IMO.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one that tanked Wind reaver and locust at the same time during progress? I feel weird when people tell their stories about getting 1 shotted or globalled from wind reaver or something. I just never had sotr down when tanking both (even on progress like I said even tho we only had around 50 wipes on paragons)

I never felt a problem with windreaver either really. He hit a lot less than Locust.

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I tanked 10m Paragons with (more than enough geared) pally and it was safe as.. But LOL, my DK OT who was taking Kil'ruk, hahah, poor guy, truly. He's a magnificent player, but some class limitations you simply can't outplay. Quite literally, getting oneshot for 1.3 million (we watched the recording afterward) you can't reliably guard against, since it's RNG when it's coming. In that way, tanking Karoz was a breeze with good haste, banking HP and bridging the gap with DivProt.
Your eloquently described does show how outdated Mastery route is for us in an encounter like Paragons, unless you're massively outgearing it.

DK "Tank"

Yeah, DKs really had it rough this tier. And yeah, mastery is outdated simply because how easy it is to overgear encounters.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Am I the only one that tanked Wind reaver and locust at the same time during progress? I feel weird when people tell their stories about getting 1 shotted or globalled from wind reaver or something. I just never had sotr down when tanking both (even on progress like I said even tho we only had around 50 wipes on paragons)

Locust and Iyyokuk felt more dangerous tbh. Windreaver is only dangerous if you forget to remove the +damage debuff stack from Xaril; he'll only have time to get max 3-4 stacks compared to Iyyokuk and Locust.

[Gothmog]

Karoz definitely has higher overal damage output. I'll see how it is on 25hc at the very end (we kill him last) albeit I'm tanking him on bear, so it's not a direct comparison.

But his damage is predictable. He has a standard swing timer, he has his Kinetic Charges and Caustic Amber during which AM can be banked.

Kil'ruk - yeah, on average and most of the time he's doing less damage. But he's dualwielding and at times, he will strike with both weapons for full damage at the same time. It used to be even more common, but they hotfixed it to "be less common". I specifically remembered they didn't remove it, just lowered the likelyhood.
If you aren't on full HP with AM or some other DR on yourself at that point.. especially if cloak proc is down.. a world of trouble.

That said, I did have fun tanking him with Xaril's debuff for a few seconds the other day. Upwards of 7 million hits if logs can be trusted. Sounds excessive, but I was getting 90% life blown through 50%+20%DR and 2mil health. fun fun
Obviously unintended and died soon after.

[celinamuna]

i can see it beneficial to pop all cds for first 15 sec and then just clear stacks with bop, dat extra dps.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one that tanked Wind reaver and locust at the same time during progress? I feel weird when people tell their stories about getting 1 shotted or globalled from wind reaver or something. I just never had sotr down when tanking both (even on progress like I said even tho we only had around 50 wipes on paragons)

We wiped about 42 times on progress on Paragons - but I'm pretty sure that was before you joined the guild???

[celinamuna]

O.o guildies ?

[vaarsuviuss]

Quick question.

The 21250 haste cap thing for prots.. I am sitting at 571ilvl and I am yet pushing 20k haste. I know the boots from shams are needed but stuff.. Do I really need to go back into ToT and get that dam trink?

[Deleted]

Well, you are also not using haste enchant on boots and your weapon, a ring, chest, boots and legs do not have native haste on them.
You do have the thok tail whip though so should u not be capped with the haste amp?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

You need to be at something like 19600 haste without the amp trinket equipped for it to push you to 21250.

[vaarsuviuss]

Got my spark on my very first Heroic kill of the dude :P

[Deleted]

Got my spark on my very first Heroic kill of the dude :P

Sssssssh... This is something you do not say in the paladin forums unless you wanna die a slow and painful death through stabbing.