They fixed rogue PvP! Kick uses 5 LESS energy!

[Firebert]

Since we are talking about pvp and not pve.

Stat weights don't change between PvP and PvE with the exception of Resilience and PvP Power going to the top of the charts.

I ask again, where is it the worst stat?

[Flaks]

Haste is the middle stat for Assassination and Combat, and is the best stat for Sub.

Where is it the worst stat?

I know this question is more suited for the rogue forums but is that the case for sub because of mastery effecting snd?

Also, rogues do still need some help in the mobility department. Either removing bos and making that effect baseline for sprint or giving shadowstep baseline sounds about right. I also think evasion and vanish could do with cd reductions.

[Nykolas]

You don't know how interrupt work, do you? Interrupt will only lock out the school which the interrupted spell belongs to. So a fire mage having a fireball kicked will not be able to cast any fire spell for X seconds.

HOWEVER, a silence locks out EVERY school of magic. With the same example from above, a mage who has his fireball interrupted by a monk's 'Spear Hand Strike', will not be able to cast ANY spell, at all, for four seconds. No Blink, no Frost Nova, no Ice Block, No Polymorph, nothing. Nothing at all

I'm curious about why you think it's 'dumb design'.

you can ice block through anything...

[Holo]

Stat weights don't change between PvP and PvE with the exception of Resilience and PvP Power going to the top of the charts.

I ask again, where is it the worst stat?

Sigh, PvP is not about doing the statistically highest posseble damage durable for a long amount of time.

Therefore, PvE statweights have no value in PvP. Not at all.

[Nykolas]

TL;DR rogues suck /10char

[Firebert]

Sigh, PvP is not about doing the statistically highest posseble damage durable for a long amount of time.

Interesting you say that, because they're designed for any fight duration. If they weren't, then there'd be no point in them (as they'd be different on every fight).

[Uselessrouge]

Rogue has been OP almost 8 years, you need to learn how to play a balanced class now.

funny poeple are funny !

this coomplete season is sadly a joke :<

i have been playing rogue since Release , and this is realy realy boring ;(

But well i still love playing my rogue even if he is even more useless then befor :P

[Gabe]

Interesting you say that, because they're designed for any fight duration. If they weren't, then there'd be no point in them (as they'd be different on every fight).

It may not make much of a difference if the fight lasts a minute or five, but it does make a huge difference if it lasts a minute or ten seconds. The only time you're doing real damage is during dance, where you eviscerate several times in a very short timeframe. If every second or third attack was an eviscerate in a standart bossfight the value of mastery would skyrocket.

[Firebert]

It may not make much of a difference if the fight lasts a minute or five, but it does make a huge difference if it lasts a minute or ten seconds. The only time you're doing real damage is during dance, where you eviscerate several times in a very short timeframe. If every second or third attack was an eviscerate in a standart bossfight the value of mastery would skyrocket.

I don't PvP as Sub, I PvP as Combat, so I don't have an insight into that.

And with self-healing the way it is at the moment, fights easily last a minute.

[Dirty Wounds]

I don't PvP as Sub, I PvP as Combat, so I don't have an insight into that.

And with self-healing the way it is at the moment, fights easily last a minute.

Rogues are only good at the moment at there controlled burst and being able to lock down a team for a short amount of time and get off a couple of Eviscerates that's why most top sub rogues are stacking mastery for higher finishers. Also rogues are not meant for long games, they have very long cooldowns and they are suffering now because of no prep. So they are meant for short games at the moment.

[Firebert]

Rogues are only good at the moment at there controlled burst and being able to lock down a team for a short amount of time and get off a couple of Eviscerates that's why most top sub rogues are stacking mastery for higher finishers. Also rogues are not meant for long games, they have very long cooldowns and they are suffering now because of no prep. So they are meant for short games at the moment.

Controlled burst? We're not designed for that any more. See the Warriors and Hunters and Mages of this season.
Locking down? 8s Kidney (or 5s Cheap into 4s Kidney).
Not meant for long games? Paralytic Poison for even more control takes a little while to stack.
And I run Prep, because as soon as things turn nasty I don't want to wait on a 3m cooldown before I get my escape tools again.

Maybe I am just "noob". But in a season where only three classes can have short encounters (and we're not one of them), I don't think there is much difference between stat priorities for PvP and PvE (except Resil/PvP Power) for us.

Wait till we can blow things up/stunlock things again.

[Ituhippi]

You don't know how interrupt work, do you? Interrupt will only lock out the school which the interrupted spell belongs to. So a fire mage having a fireball kicked will not be able to cast any fire spell for X seconds.

HOWEVER, a silence locks out EVERY school of magic. With the same example from above, a mage who has his fireball interrupted by a monk's 'Spear Hand Strike', will not be able to cast ANY spell, at all, for four seconds. No Blink, no Frost Nova, no Ice Block, No Polymorph, nothing. Nothing at all.

I'm curious about why you think it's 'dumb design'.

Do you even understand how silence works?

[Holo]

Controlled burst? We're not designed for that any more. See the Warriors and Hunters and Mages of this season.
Locking down? 8s Kidney (or 5s Cheap into 4s Kidney).
Not meant for long games? Paralytic Poison for even more control takes a little while to stack.
And I run Prep, because as soon as things turn nasty I don't want to wait on a 3m cooldown before I get my escape tools again.

Maybe I am just "noob". But in a season where only three classes can have short encounters (and we're not one of them), I don't think there is much difference between stat priorities for PvP and PvE (except Resil/PvP Power) for us.

Wait till we can blow things up/stunlock things again.

Look, even though there is a fight for an extended period of time, only the damage done in a very short timewindow really matters. The other damage is easly outhealed by a healer without cost. Doing more damage over a long period of time is absolutely useless and only burst damage can really put pressure on. At least with our class.

The reason haste is not good in PvP is simply because.. what is the use of a slightly increased energy regen against an eviscerate that does 30% more damage?

Haste is bad because it's good over a long amount of time.

[Terahertz]

False. The MMO-Champion patch nodes showed Spear-Hand Strike at 10 energy cost, down from 30. This was while the notes were still fresh and hadn't been polished yet. And check WoWHead's 5.1 ability list for Monks, it shows it at 10 energy.

This annoys me. I play a WW monk and I thought the energy cost was fine because of the silence and longer lockout period.

Now, unless they change back the Energy cost (which was fine) SPH will most likely get nerfed because of all the QQ that will happen.

[Johnkie]

Because, unlike a Rogue's kick, the Monk's 'Spear Hand Strike' not only interrupts for five seconds, it also SILENCES for four seconds. Quite a lot more powerful than a simple interrupt kick, isn't it?

Yep if ure facing your opponent, easy to miss in server lag and what not.
30 energy is to much, and WW monk is already severely lacking competition in endgame arena.

[StayTuned]

TL;DR rogues suck /10char

If I don't have my insi ready, I get killed by a rogue within cheapshot+kidney shot.

I have full pvp gear.

[Holo]

Yep if ure facing your opponent, easy to miss in server lag and what not.

Doesn't matter. It's still dumb to have a silence on your interrupt.

[Ramaloce]

Doesn't matter. It's still dumb to have a silence on your interrupt.

I agree 100%. If the silence on these "interrupts" are truly needed then take that silence throw it into a new skill button to press that shares the cd of the interrupt. I don't see what would be wrong with just doing that, interrupts can be interrupts again and the classes that have the silence can still silence. They would just have to choose which one they want to use for that moment.

[Dust45]

I, too, favor haste over crit in arenas as a Muta Rogue. Why? Because crit gives ZERO utility. I hit for more damage! yeah! This is very important if you are running with a healer who handles the cc/extra dps (read Druid/Pally). However, if you run double dps (my partner is a Frost Mage), we are better suited to providing control and the occasional burst. As such, haste gives me more combo points (more stuns, more recuperates, etc) and also lets me spam Shuriken Toss when needed (once again, control through poison procs and Deadly Throw). Basically, the way I see it, rogues are NOT there to kill things unless surrounded by weak dps with strong cc (healers). Instead, we are there to set up openings (Shroud of Concealment, sap, double Cheap shot with Subterfuge and sprint) and then to peel strong dps and interupt healers. Most rogues seem to pop Shadowblades and Vendetta right off the bat, which can work if your opponents are noobs/undergeared. However, typically, you will want to save those cds, focus on getting your buffs up (SnD, Rupture), and then blow those cds once your opponent has used most of theirs. Typically, my Frost Mage partner does more damage than me. However, that is because I let him free cast by peeling like crazy. I also get the killing blow on the first guy to die, as I have conserved my cds while they wasted theirs. Imo, rogue is fun and effective if you play smart.

On topic: Obviously haste is still second to mastery and any Muta rogue who uses Wound poison against anything other than healer/off-healer (and maybe not even then) is crazy.

[Firebert]

(Shroud of Concealment, sap, double Cheap shot with Subterfuge and sprint)

If you're running Subterfuge, try:
Cheap Shot
Garotte
Ambush
Kidney Shot (5CP).