View Poll Results: Whose to blame for the Horde's current state?

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  • Thrall - Passing leadership to an inexperied Orc

    60 34.68%
  • Thrall - (For a different reason)

    17 9.83%
  • Garrosh

    83 47.98%
  • Other (Neither Thrall, or Garrosh, or perhaps both of the them!)

    13 7.51%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPisthelifeforme View Post
    Thrall made the mistake of giving to much power to the immature Hellscream. Garrosh is a deadly soldier ready to unleash on the Alliance, but when it comes to the whole position of Warchief that is a different story. When taunted by Garrosh in the events leading to Northrend, Thrall should have simply dusted it off, the way an adult does to a insult from a child.

    In the current state of things, I do not view Garrosh as doing wrong, I simply see with each error he preforms this being Thrall's mistake for giving the young Orc so much power over the people. What would have been best for Garrosh is to have him train under Saurfang, and turn the young Hellscream into a killing machine who could uphold honor.
    I think you're spot on. Garrosh deserves to be a killing machine, a badass like Saurfang. And he still can be, imo.

    As for your argument that Thrall is to blame. I think you and Blizzard think alike. I've heard Metzen say the same thing at Blizzcon before Cataclysm. Garrosh' storyline only served to deepen Thrall's storyline. Yes, Thrall is to blame for anything that goes wrong. Garrosh is too young and inexperienced to be good at everything, it was already expected that he would make mistakes.

    To go about and say Garrosh should die is stupid. With this logic, the majority of people who visit these forums would kill children who make mistakes as well. Or what about political leaders around the world who don't always make the right decision, would you want them dead as well? It's so stupid.

    Garrosh deserves more than to be killed in the last raid. He deserves to be on par with Saurfang in awesomeness. Maybe he isn't Warchief material, but he's surely a good warrior and he should lead the Warsong and be Overlord. In the pre-Cataclysm event that's exactly what he wished for instead of becoming Warchief, so yes, it is Thrall's fault. Let's blame Thrall instead of Garrosh. And trust me, I still like Thrall overall. I'm not a hater.

  2. #42
    Mechagnome nightguard's Avatar
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    Not gonna read every post here just gonna add my thoughts

    As far I can see it, the current state of the horde is on ALL RACIAL LEADERS fault. Why do I say this? I will gladly point it out.

    Fualt one.yes it is thralls fault that garrosh is in charge of the horde being aggressive with it, but normally this wouldn't be a problem..except thrall has ,sadly to say, weakened the horde to a state they think fighting is pointless. And on top of that he should have had check in with garrosh(I'm so not joking. Thrall kinda did the dad sink or swim thing...just a really bad way. And just so u know thrall could have taken breaks in between the maelstrom hell even Agra says this.there were other great shamans there with him)
    Next is garrosh himself . I won't blame garrosh for being over aggressive in times of WAR, shit needs to get done one "honorable" way or another. So telling every soilder to brush aside dreams of peace and to kill you're enemy is fair. (Plus lets not forget outside of undead and elves the other races are kinda in a shit hole of homes...that btw the alliance wanted to force them out of.) now what do I blame garrosh for, he can't talk peacefully with people In his horde. He only tried with two ppl. One used him as a puppet and the other acceding lay got killed because he called his bluff(carine and magatha) and basically every since garrosh basically learned he wouldn't get along with racial leaders he tries to find others that will obey him without question. (Th dragon maw,malkorok,etc) and the final thing garrosh isn't a strategist , which in all honesty isn't meant to be in his area..last I checked voljin was meant to be the planner along with carine...both of who gave him the middle finger on day one.
    Now to voljin. ...honestly I don't even know how to explain voljin..he claims he cares about the horde and his trolls but yet he just can't seem to grasp that this threatening and trying to prove that without him garrosh can't sustain shit isn't working..I mean really if you can't agree just stay the fuck away , don't rage quit just stay the fuck away.
    Sylvannas has a simple issue...she cares about her ppl but at the same time really really hates being on a leash and let's face garrosh is always trying to put her on one. Don't get me wrong at the end of the day I know he probably loves the fact he has a racial leader that can at least come close to doing as he ask but still making a fuss about each and every time gets annoying.
    Baine...he is just...fuck he is having a rommney effect( sorry kinda a joke and I do not want to offend any one.) one minute he is gun ho for garrosh the next minute he isn't ,rinse and repeat.
    Lothremar( hope I got tht right) he is loyal sure..but not loyal to garrosh but the horde...so basically what ever the majority vote is and what doesn't seem stupid he will be with..so he is kinda a 50/50 deal...


    That's my thought sooo yeah.

  3. #43
    Partly surely but not all the blame can be put on him. No one could have foresaw Garrosh would go on a path of genocide. Nor would he have foresaw that the level headed orcs would be so spineless in their objection to such ideas (I'm looking at you Eitrigg) nor would he have predicted how bad the orcs were craving bloodlust and would swarm to Garrosh's ideas. All in all Garrosh is mainly to blame because he is the one fucking things up, but Thrall has to take some responsibility for what happened. Not fulfilling his promise to his people to return once the Cataclysm was over is a big deal as well.

  4. #44
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Thrall isn't responsible for how Garrosh turned out.

    He did what he did in good faith, you can't hold a person responsible for putting faith in someone, even if they betray the trust.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  5. #45
    I hate thrall, He was cool for a while.

    But doing dragon soul and the 4.3 dungeons made me sick of him. He was powerful enough to give the final blow to deathwing, but not powerful enough to solo the dungeon or WALK BY HIMSELF.

  6. #46
    He should have made Cairne leader, would have been more interesting I think
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  7. #47
    Thrall legendary hero who have a flaw he cant make a fair judgement of a persons character.
    Garrosh Berserker who will best serve the hord in the shock troops.

    If it is not a relay big conspiracy (it do not sound like Thrall) that Garrosh consciously is a big ass to force all fraction to united in there effort todefeat him.
    Last edited by a77; 2012-11-10 at 02:28 PM.

  8. #48
    Garrosh is the leader he is because Thrall left the Orcish Horde in disarray. Any Orcish leader put in place would have had to face similarly tough decisions and would most likely have failed in bringing the Horde the supplies it needed to thrive in Durotar instead of simply surviving.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    He did what he did in good faith, you can't hold a person responsible for putting faith in someone, even if they betray the trust.
    Yes you can....
    Thrall ignored all the signs that Garrosh was bad at leadership during the Northrend campaign and even ignored Cairne to the point where it caused Cairne's death because Thrall was too ignorant. Thrall is an awful judge of character. He even appointed Garrosh knowing something would go bad.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-11-10 at 02:31 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPisthelifeforme View Post
    Thrall put Garrosh in charge, because he is an Orc of the old ways! Look at his skin, and you can see this!
    I take a large bit of issue with this statement, specificly the bolded part. Being a Brown Skinned Mag'har Orc would indicate that he is a 100% normal Orc, Free of the Fel Taint that drove the Old Horde to rampage and Bloodlust. If anything, being of the "old ways" and being Brown Skinned would have made for a calmer, less violent, more Traditional Shamanistic Orc.

    Garrosh's personality has much more to do with his Family Tree then it does the color of his skin.

  11. #51
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Both Thrall and Garrosh are to blame.

    Thrall is to blame because he didn't put the Warsong in check, he left them do whatever they wanted. Then, he found Grom's son and he told him only of his father's heroic deeds, but forgat to mention the bad things. So Garrosh got the idea that what his father did was heroic and his father only abandoned him and drank demon blood to ensure a greater future for the Horde race.

    Now Garrosh's blame starts. He didn't bother to question about the not-so-good parts of his father's legacy. He forgat his father drinking demon blood because his father saved the orc race. Furthermore, he left himself be tempted by emotions, he saw an orc (Krenna?) who was unhappy because orcs got their stuff from trade, they were not self-sufficient, even if they had all they needed still from this trade. He disregarded Gorgonna's view of the situation, as well as Thrall's.
    He then went to Northrend where he showed he's a hothead at the Violet Citadel meeting, just like Varian. If he'd have stood his ground he'd have shown he's actually better then Varian.

    Thrall now made the mistake of putting Garrosh Warchief with no control from others. He could have put Saurfang as acting warchief until Garrosh was ready if he really wanted Garrosh, so to say Saurfang being warchief and Garrosh his advisor. This way Saurfang would have tempered Garrosh's view and explained to him why he did this and that. There was also Eltrigg as a choice. Even if both Saurfang and Eltrigg were old, as a temporary warchiefs they'd have fit there to train Garrosh.

    Then comes Garrosh's mistake. Because of the events of the Shattering he lost the trust of the tauren. Not because he killed Cairne, but because when Maghda sent the message that she helped him kill Cairne he didn't send an army to help retake Thunder Bluff. By this he showed the tauren he's not on their side and if Maghda hadn't tainted his honor he'd have been on her side for she was stronger.

    Then Garrosh all over, becoming more and more violent and making allies go away and more enemies appearing.

  12. #52
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Thrall didn't really have a lot of options. He had to leave his place as Warchief to heal the world. It's debatable whether or not the Horde needs an Orc Warchief, but they do need a racial leader. Varok Saurfang is in mourning, Dranosh is dead, Rexxar is in Outland (and doesn't even like being around people, let alone be a warchief), Eitrigg and Drek'Thar are older than dirt, etc. Pretty much every notable orc was incapable of being a leader at the time. Then there is Garrosh. Hotheaded, yes, but with a lot of support from the orc people do to "his" victory in Northrend. So Thrall went with his final option, and left him with his three most trusted advisors.

  13. #53
    Thrall is to blame for the Horde's current state
    YEAH! Why did he leave the good old horde to save the world? Pff, rather save the horde! /sarcasm off.

  14. #54
    Pit Lord Doktor Faustus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Orcs of the old ways weren't as extremely aggressive as Garrosh is. Garrosh is aggressive to an extreme.
    Aye, Horde players questing in Nagrand helped him out with this, before he was a snivelling shell of an Orc.

  15. #55
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor Faustus View Post
    Aye, Horde players questing in Nagrand helped him out with this, before he was a snivelling shell of an Orc.
    Oh crap, it's our fault! What have I done?!

  16. #56
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Garrosh is the leader he is because Thrall left the Orcish Horde in disarray. Any Orcish leader put in place would have had to face similarly tough decisions and would most likely have failed in bringing the Horde the supplies it needed to thrive in Durotar instead of simply surviving.
    I disagree. Yes, the Horde, and especially the orcs, were not in a good place. However, Garrosh destroyed the water supply of Orgrimmar by making goblins build a giant quarry and polluting the waters too. A less hothead leader wouldn't have done that, and for food would have likely asked the tauren for it or some land to build farms.

    The night elf situation was kind of problematic, but when Hamuul said he was under attack by Horde orcs, if a less-hothead orc was in charge everyone on the Horde side would have realized those orcs were not sent by the leader. Under Garrosh's rule it was easy to assume they were because of how he acted.
    Then Cairne would have not died as the argument would have been settled with trying to find the actual guilty party. And once those were found, the night elf situation would have also been partially solved.

  17. #57
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maveaux View Post
    YEAH! Why did he leave the good old horde to save the world? Pff, rather save the horde! /sarcasm off.
    Pretty much this ^

    If Thrall hadn't gone to save azeroth then the horde wouldn't have anything to fight over, since the hour of fecking twilight would have killed everyone.

    Still, petty horde and alliance players don't think outside there boxes.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Orcs of the old ways weren't as extremely aggressive as Garrosh is. Garrosh is aggressive to an extreme.

    Ithink most people have a big misunderstanding of orcs when they say the orcs of old. Orcs as a whole where hunters and much more similar to the taurens before the demonic corruption.

  19. #59
    Immortal Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Thrall isn't responsible for how Garrosh turned out.

    He did what he did in good faith, you can't hold a person responsible for putting faith in someone, even if they betray the trust.
    He was with Garrosh during the Northrend campaign he had him around quite often and he saw how Garrosh behaved, he knew him. That is the main reason I blame Thrall. Garrosh was never meant to be Warchief material, a general of course, but someone always had to reign him in, the same reason Sylvanas can never become warchief you would have the same fiasco.

    Not to mention he was warned not to appoint him, even as acting warchief, but he did not listen and now the world pays the price.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #60
    Immortal apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesker View Post
    Thrall is an idiot for passing the reins to Garrosh. He gambled his life's work on Hellscream and lost, now Cairne is dead, all of the other leaders apart from Gallywix (who has become something of a Garrosh fanboy) are pissed and the Horde is barely holding itself together. That much is on Thrall.

    That being said Garrosh alone is responsible for his actions. Theramore wasn't Thrall's fault and no amount of foresight would have told him it would happen. Nor would it have told him about Garrosh summoning demons, inviting the Blackrocks in or his intention to completely genocide his enemies. Garrosh is ultimately the one to blame and he'll be the one to pay for it.
    Theramore was totally foreseeable. The Horde had a problem with it from the get go when they saw the Alliance trying to make a home so close to were the Horde lived. They thought they were there to attack and such. And while this is not the case that is what some of the Horde(aka Gaarrosh and his filth) believed. If you did not see Theramore getting attacked you are blind.

    I do blame Thrall partly because of Garrosh's actions. Thrall's flaw is that he believes too much in people and sympathizes too much. this is why he gave Garrosh command. I personally think Thrall should be exiled for it, he put his trust and gave reigns to someone who should have never had it in the first place.

    Also someone tried to point out that none of the other leaders tried to do anything, that is false, Cairne tried to do something.
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