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  1. #1

    Parental leave - gender roles

    So whats your oppinion on this, do you think it's acceptable to be a stay at home dad for a period of time?
    Have you been, or do you plan to stay home with your(future) child(ren)?

    How about you girls, would you find it akward to have your man take a few months off from work to stay home with your new child?

    Is it frawned upon where you are from? Or is it normal?

    I got a few buddies that have become fathers over the last couple of years, warrying occuptions and work places(programming, construction engineerer, archaeologist), I plan on doing so as well.

    It's considered pretty normal here now, as said in the article below, "everyone does it".


    ^Not an uncommon thing.

    Mikael Karlsson owns a snowmobile, two hunting dogs and five guns. In his spare time, this soldier-turned-game warden shoots moose and trades potty-training tips with other fathers. Cradling 2-month-old daughter Siri in his arms, he can’t imagine not taking baby leave. “Everyone does.”

    From trendy central Stockholm to this village in the rugged forest south of the Arctic Circle, 85 percent of Swedish fathers take parental leave. Those who don’t face questions from family, friends and colleagues. As other countries still tinker with maternity leave and women’s rights, Sweden may be a glimpse of the future.

    In this land of Viking lore, men are at the heart of the gender-equality debate. The ponytailed center-right finance minister calls himself a feminist, ads for cleaning products rarely feature women as homemakers, and preschools vet books for gender stereotypes in animal characters. For nearly four decades, governments of all political hues have legislated to give women equal rights at work — and men equal rights at home.

    Swedish mothers still take more time off with children — almost four times as much. And some who thought they wanted their men to help raise baby now find themselves coveting more time at home.

    But laws reserving at least two months of the generously paid, 13-month parental leave exclusively for fathers — a quota that could well double after the September election — have set off profound social change.

    Companies have come to expect employees to take leave irrespective of gender, and not to penalize fathers at promotion time. Women’s paychecks are benefiting and the shift in fathers’ roles is perceived as playing a part in lower divorce rates and increasing joint custody of children.

    In perhaps the most striking example of social engineering, a new definition of masculinity is emerging.

    “Many men no longer want to be identified just by their jobs,” said Bengt Westerberg, who long opposed quotas but as deputy prime minister phased in a first month of paternity leave in 1995. “Many women now expect their husbands to take at least some time off with the children.”

    Birgitta Ohlsson, European affairs minister, put it this way: “Machos with dinosaur values don’t make the top-10 lists of attractive men in women’s magazines anymore.” Ms. Ohlsson, who has lobbied European Union governments to pay more attention to fathers, is eight months pregnant, and her husband, a law professor, will take the leave when their child is born.

    “Now men can have it all — a successful career and being a responsible daddy,” she added. “It’s a new kind of manly. It’s more wholesome.”

    Back in Spoland, Sofia Karlsson, a police officer and the wife of Mikael Karlsson, said she found her husband most attractive “when he is in the forest with his rifle over his shoulder and the baby on his back.”

    In 1974, when Sweden became the first country to replace maternity leave with parental leave, the few men who took it were nicknamed “velvet dads.”

    Despite government campaigns — one featuring a champion weightlifter with a baby perched on his bare biceps — the share of fathers on leave was stalled at 6 percent when Mr. Westerberg entered government in 1991.

    Sweden had already gone further than many countries have now in relieving working mothers: Children had access to highly subsidized preschools from 12 months and grandparents were offered state-sponsored elderly care. The parent on leave got almost a full salary for a year before returning to a guaranteed job, and both could work six-hour days until children entered school. Female employment rates and birth rates had surged to be among the highest in the developed world.

    “I always thought if we made it easier for women to work, families would eventually choose a more equal division of parental leave by themselves,” said Mr. Westerberg, 67. “But I gradually became convinced that there wasn’t all that much choice.”

    Sweden, he said, faced a vicious circle. Women continued to take parental leave not just for tradition’s sake but because their pay was often lower, thus perpetuating pay differences. Companies, meanwhile, made clear to men that staying home with baby was not compatible with a career.

    “Society is a mirror of the family,” Mr. Westerberg said. “The only way to achieve equality in society is to achieve equality in the home. Getting fathers to share the parental leave is an essential part of that.”

    Introducing “daddy leave” in 1995 had an immediate impact. No father was forced to stay home, but the family lost one month of subsidies if he did not. Soon more than eight in 10 men took leave. The addition of a second nontransferable father month in 2002 only marginally increased the number of men taking leave, but it more than doubled the amount of time they take.

    Clearly, state money proved an incentive — and a strong argument with reluctant bosses.

    Among the self-employed, and in rural and immigrant communities, men are far less likely to take leave, said Nalin Pekgul, chairwoman of the Social Democratic Party’s women’s federation. In her Stockholm suburb, with a large immigrant population, traditional gender roles remain conspicuously intact.

    But the daddy months have left their mark. A study published by the Swedish Institute of Labor Market Policy Evaluation in March showed, for instance, that a mother’s future earnings increase on average 7 percent for every month the father takes leave.

    Among those with university degrees, a growing number of couples split the leave evenly; some switch back and forth every few months to avoid one parent assuming a dominant role — or being away from jobs too long. The higher women rank, the more they resemble men: few male chief executives take parental leave — but neither do the few female chief executives.

    Parents may use their 390 days of paid leave however they want up to the child’s eighth birthday — monthly, weekly, daily and even hourly — a schedule that leaves particularly small, private employers scrambling to adapt.

    While Sweden, with nine million people, made a strategic decision to get more women into the work force in the booming 1960s, other countries imported more immigrant men. As populations in Europe decline and new labor shortages loom, countries have studied the Swedish model, said Peter Moss an expert on leave policies at the University of London’s Institute of Education.

    The United States — with lower taxes and traditional wariness of state meddling in family affairs — is not among them.Portugal is the only country where paternity leave is mandatory — but only for a week. Iceland has arguably gone furthest, reserving three months for father, three months for mother and allowing parents to share another three months.

    The trend is, however, no longer limited to small countries. Germany, with nearly 82 million people, in 2007 tweaked Sweden’s model, reserving two out of 14 months of paid leave for fathers. Within two years, fathers taking parental leave surged from 3 percent to more than 20 percent.

    “That was a marker of pretty significant change,” said Kimberly Morgan, professor at George Washington University and an expert on parental leave. If Germany can do it, she said, “most countries can.”

    The least enthusiastic, in fact, are often mothers. In a 2003 survey by the Social Insurance Agency, the most commonly cited reason for not taking more paternity leave, after finances, was mother’s preference, said Ann-Zofie Duvander, a sociologist at Stockholm University who worked at the agency at the time.

    Ann-Marie Prhat of the TCO employee federation said she had been determined to share the parental leave with her husband. After many discussions, “we practically signed a contract — six months for me and six months for him.”

    Five months into the leave, she was enjoying her son. Could she stay home a couple of months longer, she asked her husband? “In the end,” she said, “I negotiated one extra month.”

    Eight in 10 fathers now take a third of the total 13 months of leave — and 9 percent of fathers take 40 percent of the total or more — up from 4 percent a decade ago.

    The numbers tend to look more impressive in urban areas, like Stockholm, but there are some surprises. Owing to extensive government campaigns, the northern county of Vasterbotton, where the Karlssons live, has repeatedly topped the "daddy index" of average leave the TCO federation publishes every year, says its president, Sture Nordh.

    In Sodermalm, Stockholm’s trendy south island, the days of fathers taking only two months are clearly over. Men with strollers walk in the park, chat in cafes, stock up at the supermarket or weigh their babies at walk-in daycare centers.

    Claes Boklund, a 35-year-old Web designer taking 10 months off with 19-month-old Harry, admits he was scared at first: the baby, the cooking, the cleaning, the sleepless nights. Six months into his leave, he says, he is confident around Harry (and cuts his nails).

    “It’s both harder and easier than you think,” he said.

    Understanding what it is to be home with a child may help explain why divorce and separation rates in Sweden have dropped since 1995 — at a time when divorce rates elsewhere have risen, according to the national statistics office. When couples do divorce or separate, shared custody has increased.

    Fredrik and Cecilia Friberg both went part time soon after their daughter Ylva was born last Christmas Eve. He works Monday, Wednesday and every other Friday, his wife the remaining days. It helps that both are civil servants. “I wanted to be there from the start. So much happens every week, I don’t want to miss out,” said Mr. Friberg, 31.

    Every once in a while, former traditions surface. “I get complimented on how much I help at home, Cecilia gets no such gratitude,” Mr. Friberg said.

    Family benefits cost 3.3 percent of G.D.P., the highest in the world along with Denmark and France, said Willem Adema, senior economist at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

    Yet Sweden looks well balanced: a budget surplus of 2.1 percent and public debt levels at 40 percent of G.D.P., they are a fraction of those in most developed economies these days, testimony perhaps to fiscal management born of a banking crisis and recession in the 1990s. High productivity and political consensus keep the system going.

    “There are remarkably few complaints,” said Linda Haas, a professor of sociology at Indiana University currently at the University of Goteborg. With full-time preschool guaranteed at a maximum of about $150 a month and leave paid at 80 percent of salary up to $3,330 a month, “people feel that they are getting their money’s worth.”

    Companies, facing high payroll taxes and women and men taking leave in unpredictable installments, can be less sure.

    Tales of male staff members being discouraged from long leave are still not uncommon, although it is not fashionable to say so. Mr. Boklund said his office “was not happy” about his extended absence.

    Bodil Sonesson Gallon, head of sales at Axis Communications, an IT company that specializes in video surveillance, admits that parental leave can be disruptive — for careers and companies. She laments that with preschools starting at 12 months and little alternative child care, there is huge pressure for parents to take at least a year off.

    Small businesses find it particularly tricky to juggle absences, said Sofia Bergstrom, social insurance expert at the Confederation of Swedish Enterprise, which represents 60,000 companies. Worse than parental leave, she says, is the 120-day annual allowance for parents to tend to sick children, which is impossible to plan and which is suspected of being widely abused.

    “The key issue for business is planning ahead,” said Ms. Bergstrom.

    But in a sign that the broader cultural shift has acquired a dynamic of its own, a survey by Ms. Haas and Philip Hwang, a psychology professor at Goteborg University, shows that 41 percent of companies reported in 2006 that they had made a formal decision to encourage fathers to take parental leave, up from only 2 percent in 1993.

    Some managers try to make the most of the short-term openings to test potential recruits. Others say planning longer absences is easier and encourage fathers to take six months rather than three. A system of flexible working hours has evolved. Even senior employees may leave at 4:30 p.m. to collect children from school, but are expected to log on at home at night. A growing number of employers top up the salary replacement the state pays parents to 90 percent of their salary for several months.

    For many companies, a family-friendly work pattern has simply become a new way of attracting talent.

    “Graduates used to look for big paychecks. Now they want work-life balance,” said Goran Henriksson, head of human resources at the cellphone giant Ericsson in Sweden, where last year 28 percent of female employees took leave, and 24 percent of male staff did. “We have to adapt.”
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer GKLeatherCraft's Avatar
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    I think it's fine, But i'm a stay at home dad for my little one, Here in the UK it's not a common sight, but i think everyone should be allowed to take time off if they want

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Damsbo's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about the rules, if there is a way to apply for more time "off work", for a man to take care of a newborn. But as it is now, the women gets months and months off, where the men get approx. 4-6 weeks (Denmark). - But if you ask me, it should be equal between parents.
    Whether you mean housemom/housedad, I cant see a problem with having either
    I like juice

  4. #4
    I don't have a ton of respect for stay at home parenting in general, but if a couple can afford it, that's their call. I have no particular attachment to traditional gender roles.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't have a ton of respect for stay at home parenting in general, but if a couple can afford it, that's their call. I have no particular attachment to traditional gender roles.
    So you don't respect someone who raises their child? Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiight. SO conversely you respect others who leave their child with anyone but themselves all day? Rrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiight.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hairyzac View Post
    So you don't respect someone who raises their child? Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiight. SO conversely you respect others who leave their child with anyone but themselves all day? Rrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiight.
    Yes, I have more respect for people that are career driven than people that aren't. I understand there are other perspectives on the matter.

    People with jobs still "raise their child". The idea that they don't is absolutely inane.

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk
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    In Canada there isn't "maternity leave" per se. There's "parental leave" that equals a total of 12 months. It's up the particular family as far as how they want to use it. One parent could stay home for 12 months. Or both could stay home at the same time for 6 months, etc. Any combination is acceptable. I have a coworker who's had two kids over the last five years, and he's taken off three months for each of them.

    My American coworkers don't seem as fortunate (the company has offices in both Canada & US). They only seem to get like 12 weeks off or something like that, and usually only the woman takes it.
    Last edited by FathomFear; 2012-11-10 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Yes, I have more respect for people that are career driven than people that aren't. I understand there are other perspectives on the matter.

    People with jobs still "raise their child". The idea that they don't is absolutely inane.
    You can be career driven and still take a few months off though. Sure it might not be optimal, but if it's standard to take some time off, it doesn't hurt your chances of getting a promotion.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't have a ton of respect for stay at home parenting in general, but if a couple can afford it, that's their call. I have no particular attachment to traditional gender roles.
    The topic isn't about permanent stay-at-home parenting. It's about the initial parental leave and how it's typically used (by mother, father, or both).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    You can be career driven and still take a few months off though. Sure it might not be optimal, but if it's standard to take some time off, it doesn't hurt your chances of getting a promotion.
    I assumed that was pretty well acknowledged. Perhaps I'm incorrect. I thought we were referring to a "stay at home mom/dad", which I think of as being someone that takes years off, not someone doing the normal early infancy things.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 09:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FathomFear View Post
    The topic isn't about permanent stay-at-home parenting. It's about the initial parental leave and how it's typically used (by mother, father, or both).
    My mistake, sorry for my off topic comments. I'm fully on board with parental leave being granted in a gender neutral fashion.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't have a ton of respect for stay at home parenting in general, but if a couple can afford it, that's their call. I have no particular attachment to traditional gender roles.
    Raising a child properly with love and nurturing is wrong? I don't want to live on this planet anymore. I will gladly be a stay at home dad once I have children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Daws001's Avatar
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    I think it's great (and kinda hot). Gender roles are dumb.

  13. #13
    Immortal SirRobin's Avatar
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    Due to my wife's desperation to have a daughter... We ended up with three boys. Since she is an accountant, I trusted her claims that we could afford number three even though I was skeptical. Well, we couldn't. Daycare isn't cheap and neither of us had relatives that were available to watch the kids instead. It came to the point where we could afford daycare, or our mortgage. Not both...

    So one biggest fight in our marriage later and she was going to quit her job the next day. Property taxes were due, we had already fallen behind on our mortgage, and we simply could not cover the taxes if we had to pay the daycare too. Well my wife went crying to her boss, who made a variety of promises that she never kept, and so my wife refused to quit her job. I would later find out that she had convinced herself that I was going to leave her anyway.

    So realizing that she wouldn't step up, I did. I left the best job I had ever had, after seven years there, and became "Mr. Mom."



    Now I'm not exactly sexist but being a "provider" has always been a big part of my id, ego, resume, whatever you call it.

    So I was suddenly spending 24/7 with a six year old, three year old, and less-than-one year old. Now it would take a year, but my wife would finally apologize and agree that she should have quit her job. It would take three years before her "Assholes!" employer would "job eliminate" her. She was only going to get a two week notice, but her boss felt so guilty she let my wife know a month earlier.

    Now the company I worked for before not only hired me back, but gave me a raise too. So we still have our home and can afford some niceties, like internet and the occasional game. Of course I will never forgive my wife for what she put me and our children through. However, I had never seen my kids grow up before. During those three years I spent more time "with" my children than I had in this marriage and the previous one, combined.

    It was actually incredibly rewarding, and trying, to be "there" for my kids. So while I may feel that each gender has more natural "fits," provider, nurture, etc... I not only think that role reversal is possible, but that it can be quite beneficial as well.
    Last edited by SirRobin; 2012-11-10 at 02:55 PM.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Raising a child properly with love and nurturing is wrong? I don't want to live on this planet anymore. I will gladly be a stay at home dad once I have children.
    I had no idea that I lacked love and nurturing as a result of having two parents that worked for a living. That must be why I'm such a heartless bastard.

  15. #15
    Is it in France were a mother can take 2 years off or split it with her mate and each get one year off?

  16. #16
    This is one of those things I as a Swede, can be proud of. Sweden fights really hard for equal rights, both ways, like it should be, and it's just great that both moms and dads get to either take turns at staying home or at the same time, and still get fully paid.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Litoru View Post
    This is one of those things I as a Swede, can be proud of. Sweden fights really hard for equal rights, both ways, like it should be, and it's just great that both moms and dads get to either take turns at staying home or at the same time, and still get fully paid.
    It's great, unless you're someone that isn't going to take time off work and be compensated for not working. Working to pay other people to pursue their recreational activities sucks.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bavol View Post
    I think it's great (and kinda hot). Gender roles are dumb.
    Well - there is ONE gender role for the initial months of a baby's life that isn't dumb just plain fact. Whilst not mandatory, breast feeding a child in the first month or so is going to hold the child in good stead for the long haul.

    Apart from that - both parents have the same abilities to do everything the child needs.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    It's great, unless you're someone that isn't going to take time off work and be compensated for not working. Working to pay other people to pursue their recreational activities sucks.
    You pay for it, by working, as the payroll taxes finance this(among other things), so taking time off work for a time with your child, is a right.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    You pay for it, by working, as the payroll taxes finance this(among other things), so taking time off work for a time with your child, is a right.
    Delightful. If I decide I'd like a couple years off for some form of recreation, will I be afforded that? Ah, no. Breeding entitles people to vacation, but other forms of recreation are not held in the same esteem. I suppose I can see why, but it's still feels quite obnoxious to give years of vacation time (as far as I know, there's no limit on the number of times this can be done, right?) to some and denying the same to others, on the basis of whether they personally want children or not.

    I'm aware that this is a losing battle on my end and that almost everyone thinks it's a fundamental right to have additional time off for children.
    Last edited by Spectral; 2012-11-10 at 03:24 PM.

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