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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Swazi Spring View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that stimulus doesn't actually create hardly any jobs. Obama even admitted that his past stimulus projects were failures. This isn't the old days anymore, today you only see a handful of construction workers working on a project, in the old days you could very well see over a hundred.
    How many jobs can you create building a single F-35 for $20,000,000,000+?

    How many jobs can you create by building bridges, roads, and schools with that money?

  2. #682
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swazi Spring View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that stimulus doesn't actually create hardly any jobs. Obama even admitted that his past stimulus projects were failures. This isn't the old days anymore, today you only see a handful of construction workers working on a project, in the old days you could very well see over a hundred.
    One of the criticisms of it was that it was far too weak to have its full intended effect, which was a result of the Democrats compromising with the Republicans to get it passed.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  3. #683
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    How many jobs can you create building a single F-35 for $20,000,000,000+?

    How many jobs can you create by building bridges, roads, and schools with that money?
    For $200M (the cost of a single F-35), they could easily replace every bridge in downtown Minneapolis that is currently dated between 1914 and 1918.
    Last edited by Rukentuts; 2012-11-15 at 03:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You do realize that the system we're getting is analogous to Switzerland right? I'm not sure what problem, exactly, liberals have with it.

    You got your universal health care, don't be greedy. You're starting to sound like the GOP the last 10 years.
    What? The problem I described was with employers being responsible for healthcare. Wtf?

  5. #685
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    One of the criticisms of it was that it was far too weak to have its full intended effect, which was a result of the Democrats compromising with the Republicans to get it passed.
    Democrats compromising with the Republicans? The Democrats had majorities in both houses of Congress and the White House. There was nobody to compromise with.

  6. #686
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Despicable human being if you ask me.

    Plus, he lied about how much he needed to increase Pizza prices to offset the costs with health insurance (Forbes did an article about it).

    Laying off people and reducing hours to save FIVE cents per pizza? Seriously, wouldn't it have been much more just to the employees to just keep them as they were, get the health insurance and raise pizza prices by said 5 cents? It would even be a good PR move, imo. Who would mind paying a nickel more if you know it'd help all those employees keep their jobs and insurance?

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Swazi Spring View Post
    Democrats compromising with the Republicans? The Democrats had majorities in both houses of Congress and the White House. There was nobody to compromise with.
    You need a supermajority to shut down a filibuster (something else, along with Citizens United, that I hope gets a serious overhaul in the coming term, because Republicans abused the hell out of it during the last one). Account for the time wasted before Al Franken was finally allowed to take office, then Ted Kennedy's death, and we're looking at a window of... what was it, a month?

  8. #688
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    You need a supermajority to shut down a filibuster (something else, along with Citizens United, that I hope gets a serious overhaul in the coming term, because Republicans abused the hell out of it during the last one). Account for the time wasted before Al Franken was finally allowed to take office, then Ted Kennedy's death, and we're looking at a window of... what was it, a month?
    I'm pretty sure there were never 60 able-bodied Democratic votes in the Senate in the time-frame in question.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  9. #689
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Despicable human being if you ask me.

    Plus, he lied about how much he needed to increase Pizza prices to offset the costs with health insurance (Forbes did an article about it).

    Laying off people and reducing hours to save FIVE cents per pizza? Seriously, wouldn't it have been much more just to the employees to just keep them as they were, get the health insurance and raise pizza prices by said 5 cents? It would even be a good PR move, imo. Who would mind paying a nickel more if you know it'd help all those employees keep their jobs and insurance?
    Hell if Schannter had said "Hey, we want to treat our employees well, but it's going to cost a little bit more." And then said he was raising pizza prices by a dollar, he would have gotten MORE business and made MORE profit. But these incredibly wealthy people, they don't live in the same world the rest of us do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    I'm pretty sure there were never 60 able-bodied Democratic votes in the Senate in the time-frame in question.
    That's why they needed Snowe to sign off on Obamacare, a republican.

  11. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Think that was the quickest I've ever signed a petition.
    Same here, next stop is to get this guy (Russ Feingold) back in the public sphere.

  12. #692
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    That's why they needed Snowe to sign off on Obamacare, a republican.
    They need to go back to when Filibusters meant talking for hours on end like Strom Thurmond.
    Last edited by Rukentuts; 2012-11-15 at 06:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I sometimes wonder what the world looks like through the eyes of someone who truly believes this. I would imagine it's a pretty scary place.
    He said nothing incorrect, and it's actually not very scary at all. In fact, once one wraps their brain around the idea that politics have FAR less influence on their lives than the decisions they themselves make on a daily basis, it becomes easier to simply ignore 80% of what you hear anyhow. Once you realize that wealth is NOT some sort of infinite pie model, and that one person getting rich is at the cost of someone, somewhere else, it becomes simpler to make financial decisions (and to likewise take the wealthy off the pedestal our society puts them on).
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  14. #694
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    He said nothing incorrect, and it's actually not very scary at all. In fact, once one wraps their brain around the idea that politics have FAR less influence on their lives than the decisions they themselves make on a daily basis, it becomes easier to simply ignore 80% of what you hear anyhow. Once you realize that wealth is NOT some sort of infinite pie model, and that one person getting rich is at the cost of someone, somewhere else, it becomes simpler to make financial decisions (and to likewise take the wealthy off the pedestal our society puts them on).
    If you do that, then you blow neo-liberal financial theology right out of the water, which basically says that money isn't a game of winners and losers, but of winners and bigger winners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  15. #695
    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Once you realize that wealth is NOT some sort of infinite pie model
    Oh, it is semi-infinite (large enough that it may as well be infinite from an individual human's scale), but barring outside factors, money tends to act like mass and is subject to gravity.

    For example, if you look at the planets of our solar system



    The "top 25%" (top 2 of 8) of planets make up 92% of the mass.

    compare



    Top 20% make up 93% of the wealth.
    Last edited by Masark; 2012-11-15 at 07:22 PM.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    For $200M (the cost of a single F-35), they could easily replace every bridge in downtown Minneapolis that is currently dated between 1914 and 1918.
    I really wish they would, some are just utter shit.

  17. #697
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Oh, it is semi-infinite, but barring outside factors, money tends to act like mass and is subject to gravity.
    Think of it like conservation of energy. The total amount of "potential wealth" and "used wealth" is finite. Inflation changes numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that wealth is only ever exchanged; never created.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 01:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by usiris View Post
    I really wish they did, some are just utter shit.
    I commute on the Midtown Greenway, and I go under like 20 bridges that look like they'll be falling down within the next 10 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Think of it like conservation of energy. The total amount of "potential wealth" and "used wealth" is finite. Inflation changes numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that wealth is only ever exchanged; never created.
    I think it's important to point out that merely extracting the raw materials and outputting human labor is not the main source of wealth. The real wealth is created when these are arranged in their most effective use.

  19. #699
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    I think it's important to point out that merely extracting the raw materials and outputting human labor is not the main source of wealth. The real wealth is created when these are arranged in their most effective use.
    It isn't created. If you make a great supply-chain for example, that means are just spending less.

    If you find a way to extract purer ore, you are just extracting more of the "potential wealth" than you would have before.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    It isn't created. If you make a great supply-chain for example, that means are just spending less.

    If you find a way to extract purer ore, you are just extracting more of the "potential wealth" than you would have before.
    Well, everyone can look at it from their own perspective. But potential wealth is meaningless if it is sitting 100 meters below the surface or in the hands of someone else.

    Value (=wealth) is created when goods are exchanged between two persons and both are better off as a result. If I like metallica and you like iron maiden, but i have an iron maiden cd and you have a metallica cd, swapping cd's will create value (=wealth) for us both.

    Likewise, the values of a couple grams of cedar, rubber and graphite in separate locations are much lower than the value of a pencil. Wealth is created when these materials are brought together.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-11-15 at 07:55 PM.

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