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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    I believe what araine means is it isn't obamacare specifically, but rather just the latest variation on the theme of avoiding paying benefits to the greatest extent possible by playing numbers games.
    Business like pizza joints etc have been doing it for decades. loopholes like this have always been around. What needs to happen is true public healthcare maybe someday America will enlighten enough to see how broken even Obamacare is since it keeps the core of what is broken namely healthcare insurance companies.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Yeah, but you don't have an 80/20 distribution. You've got a considerably more lopsided 93/20 distribution.

    That combined with low socioeconomic mobility (as I've previously mentioned either in this thread or a similar one) does show things going wrong.
    A 93/20 distribution says the top 7% holds 93% of the wealth while the bottom 20% holds 20%. Impossible.

    The correct notation would be 93/7.

    If that were even what mattered. Wealth distribution doesn't matter nearly as much as income distribution since no country taxes wealth, only the transfer thereof.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    In my 31 years of life, I have yet to see the rich pay their fair share. The day we see that will be one of the best days in world history and one of the days where the worlds elite attempt to play the victims to a level that would qualify as drastic over acting.
    Have to agree, i have never seen them pay their fair share. Having folks like the Romneys paying less as a percentage of income than i pay on income that is far far far far lower is just insane. We have class warfare written into the tax code when Romney pays less than most middle class americans pay. And this outrage over having to spend a few cents on a pizza to cover all your workers with healthcare.

    Really it just shows the root of the problems in America today and it is GREED.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Business like pizza joints etc have been doing it for decades. loopholes like this have always been around. What needs to happen is true public healthcare maybe someday America will enlighten enough to see how broken even Obamacare is since it keeps the core of what is broken namely healthcare insurance companies.
    Switzerland has almost the same system, and no one considers it broken.

    Quit bitching about what you didn't get and be happy for what you did.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Have to agree, i have never seen them pay their fair share. Having folks like the Romneys paying less as a percentage of income than i pay on income that is far far far far lower is just insane. We have class warfare written into the tax code when Romney pays less than most middle class americans pay. And this outrage over having to spend a few cents on a pizza to cover all your workers with healthcare.

    Really it just shows the root of the problems in America today and it is GREED.
    It goes well beyond that. If you notice, almost everyone in power today has inherited it. You rarely, if ever, see someone who has earned a damn thing when it comes down to it. Sure we have a few who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and managed to turn it into platinum (IE Bill Gates) but you have never seen anyone who was born as a bottom of the barrel player who made it to the top. Closest I have seen is the guys who made the TapOut brand of clothing and they haven't hit the level of income I am talking about yet either.

    Well when you have inherited wealth like these people have, you end up having worthless children who have no idea what it is like to actually be human and have a huge disconnect between themselves and the rest of the world where they don't even see us as people but resources to be exploited and to be honest, when they get up to that level of income, they start to judge their own worth as a person based on it and it becomes less about making an income to provide and more about seeing who can get the higher top score.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    It goes well beyond that. If you notice, almost everyone in power today has inherited it. You rarely, if ever, see someone who has earned a damn thing when it comes down to it. Sure we have a few who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and managed to turn it into platinum (IE Bill Gates) but you have never seen anyone who was born as a bottom of the barrel player who made it to the top. Closest I have seen is the guys who made the TapOut brand of clothing and they haven't hit the level of income I am talking about yet either.
    What about Daymond John?, Mark Cuban? Warren Buffet?

    Most super-wealthy people do not, in fact, inherit their money.

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Papa Johns CEO threatens to reduce employee hours or increase pizza prices so he doesn't have to pay for healthcare.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...n_2104202.html


    Murray energy fires 150+ employees in response to Obama re-election.
    http://m.washingtonpost.com/business...684_story.html


    So I guess this is the new thing. Blame layoffs and price increases that were already going to happen on Obama. Murray energy should probably blame the free market for its layoffs, since they are a direct result of the rising competitiveness of Natural Gas via fracking. It's no wonder they deny climate change and lobby for unsafe working conditions to reduce cost.

    Oh look a picture of John Schnatters house. i.imgur.com/T7W2j.png

    Your pizza sucks anyways, John.
    *shakes head*

    Do you really think that corporations pay tax's? What they do is they calculate how much they have to raise their proses to cover their tax debt and pass that on to the consumer.

    In the early 2000's McDonald's got cough up in a several law suits by a kid and his parents claiming that "That McDonald's was to blame for his obesity and associated health problems." his logic was that the food was "addictive because it taste good". Because of our legal system the burden of proof falls on the defendant to prove there is no addictive properties to their food. When the law suit was all said and done it cost them neatly 2 million dollars, later that hear McDonald's raise their prices 0.5 cents on all items to "cover incurred legal expenses"

    When the smoking industry lost the huge smoking class action law suit, almost over night they raised the base prices of their tobacco products by 2 dollars within a year to cover the settlement cost.

    If you think that business are going to "pay for health care" your sorely mistaken, they will pass the cost on to the consumer...

    Is Economic 101 still a required class in high school/collage?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlor
    Deleted half the thread and gave someone a well deserved ban.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, this forum is NOT grammar school, this forum IS a gaming community. We ask everyone to post in their best-as-possible English.

    We do NOT want to see people getting bashed for poor English writing skills. I read the OP's post and I understood him perfectly fine if I put some effort into it. If you are unwilling to put effort into reading a post, please don't put effort in writing your unwanted opinion about it's grammar/spelling/choice of words.

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Iosif View Post
    *shakes head*

    Do you really think that corporations pay tax's? What they do is they calculate how much they have to raise their proses to cover their tax debt and pass that on to the consumer.

    In the early 2000's McDonald's got cough up in a several law suits by a kid and his parents claiming that "That McDonald's was to blame for his obesity and associated health problems." his logic was that the food was "addictive because it taste good". Because of our legal system the burden of proof falls on the defendant to prove there is no addictive properties to their food. When the law suit was all said and done it cost them neatly 2 million dollars, later that hear McDonald's raise their prices 0.5 cents on all items to "cover incurred legal expenses"

    When the smoking industry lost the huge smoking class action law suit, almost over night they raised the base prices of their tobacco products by 2 dollars within a year to cover the settlement cost.

    If you think that business are going to "pay for health care" your sorely mistaken, they will pass the cost on to the consumer...

    Is Economic 101 still a required class in high school/collage?
    Of course they pass prices on to the consumer.

    If there's anyone who doesn't realize this, they need a serious reality check. This is why I oppose the corporate income tax. It does nothing but increase prices for the consumer.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    You are 100% right the greed on the top have been going the 29hr route for decades i have seen it happen DECADES before Obama was even running for Senate. I know you dont like him but really blaming him for things business have been doing for decades as part of good business practice to cut costs. And now blaming that on Obamacare.

    The only ones that will fall for this are those that listen to FOX, Rush and Glenn or have never been earning paycheck of his own. Just ask around and you might see your parents or something got 29hr part time jobs at some point there there lifes. That 29hr job was 29hr so they could dodge as much benefits as possible, Business have been doing this for DECADES and blaming it on Obama is just that blame your failure to take care of your workers on someone that has no control over it.

    And after all this 29hr practice have been around for DECADES
    Benefits were taken out of your pay, it was your option...

    The 29 hour thing is because employers have to pay if you work 30. Are you referring to the 40 hour week by chance? Really have no clue what your talking about, with your line about fox news and rush, i dont think its worth looking into.

  10. #730
    I stand corrected on the individuals you linked but the study you linked was not at the level I was talking about. I wasn't talking about people who barely pass of millionaires, I was talking about players who ranked into the billions. But thank you for the correction. Most of the rich people I see are ones who got their money from mommy and daddy or were "self made" even though they had millions before they started.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I stand corrected on the individuals you linked but the study you linked was not at the level I was talking about. I wasn't talking about people who barely pass of millionaires, I was talking about players who ranked into the billions. But thank you for the correction. Most of the rich people I see are ones who got their money from mommy and daddy or were "self made" even though they had millions before they started.
    Do you realize that there are only 400 people in the United States who have $1 billion in net assets? Almost none of them are heirs.

  12. #732
    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    500k in investment assets is "super wealthy"?

    That's an average size RRSP.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    500k in investment assets is "super wealthy"?

    That's an average size RRSP.
    No, 500k in free cash available for investing.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I stand corrected on the individuals you linked but the study you linked was not at the level I was talking about. I wasn't talking about people who barely pass of millionaires, I was talking about players who ranked into the billions. But thank you for the correction. Most of the rich people I see are ones who got their money from mommy and daddy or were "self made" even though they had millions before they started.
    You realize professional atheles are usually millionaires? The majority dont grow up rich. How about musicians and actors? I think your polarizing on a few or didnt really look into this

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by sulfuric View Post
    I actually think the CEO's are doing this to intentionally hobble their companies, to make Obama look as if he is hurting them. Kind of the equivalent of getting brushed up against in soccer and throwing yourself to the ground, howling in agony and hoping to God everyone watching believes you've genuinely been fouled.

    Holy. Fucking. Shit. YES YOU CAN

    When a company wants to cut its employees overtime, pension, benefits, to make more money you can be mad at them.

    When a company increases its carbon footprint and dumps its polluted afterproduct to save money into a local river, pond, lake, or even woods you can be mad at them.

    When a company moves its factory from Detroit Michigan to Hong Kong because Chinese labor laws allow them to place their workers in dangerous working conditions and pay them far less, you can be mad at them.

    When a company creates a product that sells based on its "guarantee" and the they find every loophole and exemption to avoid honoring their garuntee you can be mad at them.


    Somewhere along the line the World of Warcraft community has accepted EVERYTHING blizzard has done on the basis of "A corporation has got to make money" where has your consumer expectations gone? What you're willing to purchase is a deciding factor in capitalism, so why are you willing to purchase anything and tell yourself "oh capitalism you're silly" when things go awry.
    Goes back to the days of monopolies and Mckinley except, the dems outspent Romhole and the republicans this time. Conservatives have a much bigger problem than money. Its called relating to the 70% of Americans who make this country what it is. Middle class. If you cant relate to us, you'll never see the oval office. Plain and simple.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Do you realize that there are only 400 people in the United States who have $1 billion in net assets? Almost none of them are heirs.
    Almost all I have heard of were heirs or old as hell. But I haven't read up too much on them.

    If they haven't inherited so much and they had earned, then how can they still have such a disconnect between themselves and the rest of the world? The Walton heirs I can understand as they never had to live as normal people to begin with but to have someone go from rolling pennies for gas to having millions or billions only to treat others who started in their shoes like trash and setup the game to make it even harder for them to get out of their situation... Just how fucked up did they have to be to get where they are if that is what they are when they get there.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 05:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    You realize professional atheles are usually millionaires? The majority dont grow up rich. How about musicians and actors? I think your polarizing on a few or didnt really look into this
    I wasn't including Actors, Musicians or Athletes with this. I was talking about the people who actually ran businesses and such. And besides, they weren't at the income bracket I was talking about. The guys who sign their paychecks are.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2012-11-15 at 10:36 PM.

  17. #737
    Table 4: Percentage of wealth held in 2000 by the Top 10% of the adult population in various Western countries
    wealth owned

    by top 10%
    Switzerland 71.3%
    United States 69.8%
    Denmark 65.0%
    France 61.0%
    Sweden 58.6%
    UK 56.0%
    Canada 53.0%
    Norway 50.5%
    Germany 44.4%
    Finland 42.3%

    "If they haven't inherited so much and they had earned, then how can they still have such a disconnect between themselves and the rest of the world? The Walton heirs I can understand as they never had to live as normal people to begin with but to have someone go from rolling pennies for gas to having millions or billions only to treat others who started in their shoes like trash and setup the game to make it even harder for them to get out of their situation... Just how fucked up did they have to be to get where they are if that is what they are when they get there."

    actually you should dig a little deeper and you'll see the Walton family is under the true 1%'rs in America. The Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Morgan's and Carnegies are still the most affluent in America in some facet.
    Last edited by purpledrannk; 2012-11-15 at 10:46 PM.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Almost all I have heard of were heirs or old as hell. But I haven't read up too much on them.

    If they haven't inherited so much and they had earned, then how can they still have such a disconnect between themselves and the rest of the world? The Walton heirs I can understand as they never had to live as normal people to begin with but to have someone go from rolling pennies for gas to having millions or billions only to treat others who started in their shoes like trash and setup the game to make it even harder for them to get out of their situation... Just how fucked up did they have to be to get where they are if that is what they are when they get there.
    It's quite simple really.

    Our brains have a way of enhancing things that happened in the past, for good or ill. If you went from being grindingly poor to incredibly wealthy, there's a good chance your brain will alter your perception of how life was before you were wealthy. It's almost the exact same phenomenon that causes people to think that if they just had more money all their problems would go away. The brain's terrible way of estimating things combined with its piss poor historical accuracy make for some pretty big disparities between the wealthy and not.

    Some other wealthy people might be of the mentality "Well this guy isn't collecting aluminum cans out of dumpsters, he's not half as poor as I was and look at me now." The mentality is "If I could do all this, why can't he bootstrap himself to at least middle class?"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 10:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by purpledrannk View Post
    Table 4: Percentage of wealth held in 2000 by the Top 10% of the adult population in various Western countries
    wealth owned

    by top 10%
    Switzerland 71.3%
    United States 69.8%
    Denmark 65.0%
    France 61.0%
    Sweden 58.6%
    UK 56.0%
    Canada 53.0%
    Norway 50.5%
    Germany 44.4%
    Finland 42.3%

    interesting
    I'd rather be like Switzerland than Sweden. Looks like we're on a good path.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    It's quite simple really.

    Our brains have a way of enhancing things that happened in the past, for good or ill. If you went from being grindingly poor to incredibly wealthy, there's a good chance your brain will alter your perception of how life was before you were wealthy. It's almost the exact same phenomenon that causes people to think that if they just had more money all their problems would go away. The brain's terrible way of estimating things combined with its piss poor historical accuracy make for some pretty big disparities between the wealthy and not.

    Some other wealthy people might be of the mentality "Well this guy isn't collecting aluminum cans out of dumpsters, he's not half as poor as I was and look at me now." The mentality is "If I could do all this, why can't he bootstrap himself to at least middle class?"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 10:46 PM ----------



    I'd rather be like Switzerland than Sweden. Looks like we're on a good path.
    Cognitive Dissidence at it's best (or worst) I guess. Kinda like how a drunk remembering a fight sees himself like Bruce Lee when in the fight he was more like Andy Dick. I can see it, seen plenty trying to remember their past and many of them end up remember it being much better or worse than it really was.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Cognitive Dissidence at it's best (or worst) I guess. Kinda like how a drunk remembering a fight sees himself like Bruce Lee when in the fight he was more like Andy Dick. I can see it, seen plenty trying to remember their past and many of them end up remember it being much better or worse than it really was.
    That idea goes the other way too.

    Poor people love imagining that if they just had more money, all their problems would go away.

    In reality, the reason they're poor to begin with is usually that they're bad at managing money. Look at how many people win the lottery and go back to being grindingly poor in less than 2 years.

    In reality, most poor people are poor because they manage their money so badly that there's nothing in the bank when adversity strikes.

    I really believe that if everyone were good at managing their money then the wealth distribution wouldn't look anything like the top quintile holding 93% of the wealth.

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