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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Switzerland has almost the same system, and no one considers it broken.

    Quit bitching about what you didn't get and be happy for what you did.

    Rightwingers consider it broken. And no i am not going to stop until we have true public healthcare just not gonna happen it is called standing up for what is the right thing to do

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:12 AM ----------


    We have less upward mobility than you have in socialist countries, THAT should tell you how broken the economic system of trickle down is Denmark have far higher rate of upwards mobility than USA

  2. #762
    I think the perfect compromise on healthcare is the government gets out of the healthcare system except for realistic regulations that help both the insurers and insured.

  3. #763
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    You do realize that the wealth that is still underground has almost no monetary value?
    This is why I called it "potential wealth" think of it like potential energy. It has monetary value, just nobody has it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.

    Cycling Logs: 2012, 2013, 2014 (YTD-9.30).

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I agree. Our health care system costs far too much.
    The root cause of which will have likely been addressed in the next 4 years.

    If you show up at a emergency room they're stabilize you. That doesn't mean they give you the treatment you need.
    If you go to a hospital and you have cancer, they have charity care and state programs that will get you the treatment you need.

    Or you were one of many who was not poor and couldn't afford insurance still.
    If you're not poor you can afford insurance. The average premium is barely north of $400. The only places this fails to be true is in states where health insurers are required, by law, to extend insurance to everyone.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Rightwingers consider it broken. And no i am not going to stop until we have true public healthcare just not gonna happen it is called standing up for what is the right thing to do
    ACA is the way it is because of a compromise with the right wing. I'm not sure what's broken about it.

    We have less upward mobility than you have in socialist countries, THAT should tell you how broken the economic system of trickle down is Denmark have far higher rate of upwards mobility than USA
    Ask me how much I care about Denmark or Sweden. Go on. Ask me. If you want to live in Denmark, go live in Denmark. If you want to live in the USA, stay in the USA and work toward your goals (political or otherwise). Don't live in the USA and complain we're not like Denmark.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-11-16 at 01:21 AM.

  5. #765
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    If you're not poor you can afford insurance. The average premium is barely north of $400. The only places this fails to be true is in states where health insurers are required, by law, to extend insurance to everyone.
    I think you're ignoring a pretty significant demographic in the US, the working poor. There's a large population resting between the point where they gain benefits due to low income and being wealthy enough to maintain healthy living conditions. This is, in fact, an influential factor in hindering social mobility for many in the US, especially in cities. If you get to the point where if you advance a bit, you lose your government benefits and that 50 cent increase in wages causes drastic losses in your benefits, than its exceedingly difficult to progress from there.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”

  6. #766
    If you go to a hospital and you have cancer, they have charity care and state programs that will get you the treatment you need.
    Which is why no one goes without care in the US!

    Oh wait.
    If you're not poor you can afford insurance. The average premium is barely north of $400. The only places this fails to be true is in states where health insurers are required, by law, to extend insurance to everyone.
    yes because that's realistic and doable. And that's the average. God help you if its higher.
    Ask me how much I care about Denmark or Sweden. Go on. Ask me. If you want to live in Denmark, go live in Denmark. If you want to live in the USA, stay in the USA and work toward your goals. Don't live in the USA and complain we're not like Denmark.
    What if our goal is to be more like Denmark?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I think you're ignoring a pretty significant demographic in the US, the working poor. There's a large population resting between the point where they gain benefits due to low income and being wealthy enough to maintain healthy living conditions. This is, in fact, an influential factor in hindering social mobility for many in the US, especially in cities. If you get to the point where if you advance a bit, you lose your government benefits and that 50 cent increase in wages causes drastic losses in your benefits, than its exceedingly difficult to progress from there.
    That gap area is what we call a welfare trap.

  8. #768
    Honestly, a lot of this discussion is moot. Until we figure out how we're going to create jobs that automation has replaced, we're screwed. Technology is just going to become more prevalent while unskilled human labor is going to disappear.

    We recently installed a machine at work that can do in 15 minutes what it took a human 6 hours to do. How many jobs do you think that one machine has replaced?

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Of course they pass prices on to the consumer.

    If there's anyone who doesn't realize this, they need a serious reality check. This is why I oppose the corporate income tax. It does nothing but increase prices for the consumer.
    With the abysmal low level of taxes they pay it doesnt increase anything, a truckload of companies pay the CEO more in wages and bonus than they pay in taxes. So why do we have to pay the cost increases of those outrageous salaries to the top brass? I mean they pass that cost along just as the taxes they dont pay.

    lots of business pays more in lobbying in washington than they pay in taxes, why do i have to pick up the tab on that???

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What if our goal is to be more like Denmark?
    Then keep it at your state level so those of us who despise the idea of being like Scandinavia don't have to fight so vociferously against it on a national level.

    I have no desire to fund a national single-payer service with a 45% tax rate. No desire to raise taxes on certain foods just because some government body tells us it's unhealthy and places an additional burden on said national health care system.

    Everything good that comes with nationalized services comes with SOMETHING bad. Whether that bad thing bothers you or even AFFECTS you is a matter of question.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    With the abysmal low level of taxes they pay it doesnt increase anything, a truckload of companies pay the CEO more in wages and bonus than they pay in taxes. So why do we have to pay the cost increases of those outrageous salaries to the top brass? I mean they pass that cost along just as the taxes they dont pay.

    lots of business pays more in lobbying in washington than they pay in taxes, why do i have to pick up the tab on that???
    You don't. Just don't buy said company's product and bam. You're no longer picking up their tab.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelas View Post
    Honestly, a lot of this discussion is moot. Until we figure out how we're going to create jobs that automation has replaced, we're screwed. Technology is just going to become more prevalent while unskilled human labor is going to disappear.

    We recently installed a machine at work that can do in 15 minutes what it took a human 6 hours to do. How many jobs do you think that one machine has replaced?
    Hopefully a shitload.

    Was it a CNC machine? I love those things.

    Seriously, don't be a Luddite. Just because you get put out of work by a machine doesn't mean you're doomed to unemployment. Why not go into training and learn how to run that machine?

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The root cause of which will have likely been addressed in the next 4 years.



    If you go to a hospital and you have cancer, they have charity care and state programs that will get you the treatment you need.



    If you're not poor you can afford insurance. The average premium is barely north of $400. The only places this fails to be true is in states where health insurers are required, by law, to extend insurance to everyone.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:21 AM ----------



    ACA is the way it is because of a compromise with the right wing. I'm not sure what's broken about it.



    Ask me how much I care about Denmark or Sweden. Go on. Ask me. If you want to live in Denmark, go live in Denmark. If you want to live in the USA, stay in the USA and work toward your goals (political or otherwise). Don't live in the USA and complain we're not like Denmark.

    You obvious get very upset when your dream of ultra capitalism and AYN RAND world is worse for everyone when it comes to upwards mobility and being able to work your butt of to become rich. Really isnt something wrong with the system when your utopia of may the strongest survive and screw the rest have LESS notice LESS as is fewer being able to work there asses of to become rich.

    We call this a RIGGED game when it works like this. explain why it is good to have less upwards mobility than in Denmark. and dont go of on some right wing rant about move to fking denmark. Really just explain why less upwards mobility than in socialists countries are a good thing just explain it and dont go on a right wing rant about it. Obviously it hit a sore spot, facts can do that sometimes

  12. #772
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You don't. Just don't buy said company's product and bam. You're no longer picking up their tab.
    Yes lets all boycott General Electric, one of the most notorious companies that lowers or eliminates their tax burden through loopholes in the tax department that costs literally as much as their proper taxes owed. The tendrils of companies like GE extend so far it is impossible to boycott them. I need to find that infographic of all the big companies and how there are really about 15 companies that own everything in the world from food to television to energy production.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Hopefully a shitload.

    Was it a CNC machine? I love those things.

    Seriously, don't be a luddite. Just because you get put out of work by a machine doesn't mean you're doomed to unemployment. Why not go into training and learn how to run that machine?
    It was a needle winder and no I'm not being a luddite. Just being a realist. People who have high school educations and are over 40 aren't going to go back to school and magically find a new career with a high paying job. If a thousand people get laid off due to new automation, do you really think there are a thousand jobs out there for them to go and snatch up? While competing with new college grads and others in the same situation?

    I think technology is wonderful (I work in IT) but at the same time, the effect it's having on our workforce isn't given enough credit.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    You obvious get very upset when your dream of ultra capitalism and AYN RAND world is worse for everyone when it comes to upwards mobility and being able to work your butt of to become rich. Really isnt something wrong with the system when your utopia of may the strongest survive and screw the rest have LESS notice LESS as is fewer being able to work there asses of to become rich.

    We call this a RIGGED game when it works like this. explain why it is good to have less upwards mobility than in Denmark. and dont go of on some right wing rant about move to fking denmark. Really just explain why less upwards mobility than in socialists countries are a good thing just explain it and dont go on a right wing rant about it. Obviously it hit a sore spot, facts can do that sometimes
    Oh my god. I'm sorry but I really have a problem understanding what you wrote. Your grammar is just atrocious and I have to read your posts 3 times before I have an idea of what you're saying, but here goes.

    First off I don't believe in "Ayn Rand" world. I believe in "Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman" world.

    Level of education in a country is directly tied to social mobility. The costs of education in the United States have been skyrocketing faster than the costs of health care, but no one seems to notice. This has been caused by the failure of our public education system to keep up with the demands of our economy coupled with a near-ubiquitous idea of "go to college because you need to" generating damn-near infinite demand for higher education.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelas View Post
    It was a needle winder and no I'm not being a luddite. Just being a realist. People who have high school educations and are over 40 aren't going to go back to school and magically find a new career with a high paying job. If a thousand people get laid off due to new automation, do you really think there are a thousand jobs out there for them to go and snatch up? While competing with new college grads and others in the same situation?

    I think technology is wonderful (I work in IT) but at the same time, the effect it's having on our workforce isn't given enough credit.
    My brother is 50 years old and will be starting his 5th apprenticeship in February (HVAC). Of course there are jobs out there for people with high school educations over 40. Apprentices for trades are routinely over 40... and those jobs can't be outsources or automated. And they're growing faster than most other job sectors.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You don't. Just don't buy said company's product and bam. You're no longer picking up their tab.
    If only that were true. Case in point. If you pay taxes, you are picking up the tab for Walmart. Doesn't matter if you shop with them or not, you are picking up their tab.

    I say that cause they pay their employees so low that many of them are on Food Stamps, Low Income Housing and Low Income Healthcare. The managers there actually encourage you to get on them as they do not pay you enough to support yourself. I say this as a Walmart employee myself trying my best to get work elsewhere so I can live without handouts and (hopefully) going back to college in the spring if I can't find a real job before then.

    You even subsidize a good deal of their management as they (at least where I live) have a big thing about hiring retired military for their management positions due to the fact that it gives them an employee working 48 hours for a salaried paycheck and no benefits due to Tricare picking up the tab on that.

    If you really think about it, you are picking up the tab for a lot of companies that way due to their refusal to pay livable wages, just Walmart is the posterchild and the front runner in that regard. You are literally paying their employees to make up for what they won't pay them.

    Edit: Sorry, kinda off topic, but the first thing that came to mind when I got back and read that comment.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2012-11-16 at 01:59 AM.

  16. #776
    Then keep it at your state level so those of us who despise the idea of being like Scandinavia don't have to fight so vociferously against it on a national level.
    No?
    I have no desire to fund a national single-payer service with a 45% tax rate.
    Lots of countries provide health care with effective individual tax rates lower than that for many.
    Everything good that comes with nationalized services comes with SOMETHING bad. Whether that bad thing bothers you or even AFFECTS you is a matter of question.
    Some systems are objectively better. The only way in which our system really out performs public health care by other wealthy nations is in the area of elective procedures, which I think we agree isn't a very big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    If only that were true. Case in point. If you pay taxes, you are picking up the tab for Walmart. Doesn't matter if you shop with them or not, you are picking up their tab.

    I say that cause they pay their employees so low that many of them are on Food Stamps, Low Income Housing and Low Income Healthcare. The managers there actually encourage you to get on them as they do not pay you enough to support yourself. I say this as a Walmart employee myself trying my best to get work elsewhere so I can live without handouts and (hopefully) going back to college in the spring if I can't find a real job before then.

    You even subsidize a good deal of their management as they (at least where I live) have a big thing about hiring retired military for their management positions due to the fact that it gives them an employee working 48 hours for a salaried paycheck and no benefits due to Tricare picking up the tab on that.

    If you really think about it, you are picking up the tab for a lot of companies that way due to their refusal to pay livable wages, just Walmart is the posterchild and the front runner in that regard. You are literally paying their employees to make up for what they won't pay them.

    Edit: Sorry, kinda off topic, but the first thing that came to mind when I got back and read that comment.
    I view that as a problem with the welfare system rather than Walmart.

    Companies like Walmart will pay as little for "warm body" work as they can. So would you if you were running Walmart. And raising the minimum wage certainly does less than nothing in the long run.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelas View Post
    It was a needle winder and no I'm not being a luddite. Just being a realist. People who have high school educations and are over 40 aren't going to go back to school and magically find a new career with a high paying job. If a thousand people get laid off due to new automation, do you really think there are a thousand jobs out there for them to go and snatch up? While competing with new college grads and others in the same situation?

    I think technology is wonderful (I work in IT) but at the same time, the effect it's having on our workforce isn't given enough credit.
    Technology is indeed affecting our workforce, but without concrete numbers your guess is as a good as mine. Menial physical labor is indeed getting replaced, but at the same time, the job growth in the IT department has been exponential by far. 20 years ago you had those thousand workers in a factory, now you have them maintaining websites, updating databases, etc etc while you have 1 machine doing the factory job. Menial labor has simply shifted.

  19. #779
    I wish I was a republican. It seems so convenient. Nothing ever being your fault if it's bad, anything good is a direct result of what you did. Like their stance on government policies. Government policies don't create or drive business, however when people get laid off or businesses fail....well, the government did that.

    People get put in looney bins for saying similar things, yet we let these nut jobs run for the highest public office. Why is that?

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    No?
    What if we don't want to be like Denmark?

    Lots of countries provide health care with effective individual tax rates lower than that for many.
    I'd ask which ones since the UK, Germany, all of Scandinavia and France have top marginal tax brackets over 42% and mean effective rates well over America's 29%. In fact, the only one that's in the US' effective tax neighborhood is Switzerland.

    Some systems are objectively better. The only way in which our system really out performs public health care by other wealthy nations is in the area of elective procedures, which I think we agree isn't a very big deal.
    The issue at hand was that he was bitching that the ACA wasn't enough. Surely you can understand my frustration with that.

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