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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    That's what I'm telling you. The debate isn't to the point of drafting a specific bill. Its still at "is single payer a type of system we want to pursue".
    How about enjoying the ACA and giving it a chance before determining that answer is "no", then?

    Among first world nations Switzerland is still 4th with us, belgium and France ahead of them. I don't know about belgium but France provides a huge amount of stuff and both of those nations are only about a percentage point of GDP above Switzerland.
    I don't believe the system should be about spending the least per capita, but rather providing the highest level of service without placing the burden entirely on public coffers or fixing prices and nationalizing (and thus determining the compensation of) highly skilled professions such as doctors and nurses.

    Absolute value is pointless. If we create the minimum wage to keep standard of living up the only thing that matters in this discussion is the purchasing power.
    The decline of purchasing power is inflation. Can this be made any more clear?

    There are more factors at play here, we both know this.
    Don't you see how continually increasing the minimum wage causes inflation? In order to perpetually keep minimum wage as a livable wage you'd have to increase it every year at an accelerating rate to keep ahead of it.

  2. #802
    How about enjoying the ACA and giving it a chance before determining that answer is "no", then?
    I'm not sure what your point here is. I think the ACA is better than nothing. I think single payer would be better.
    I don't believe the system should be about spending the least per capita, but rather providing the highest level of service without placing the burden entirely on public coffers or fixing prices and nationalizing (and thus determining the compensation of) highly skilled professions such as doctors and nurses.
    Then if we're going to use the WHO rankings Switzerland is 20th in performance, even worse.
    Don't you see how continually increasing the minimum wage causes inflation? In order to perpetually keep minimum wage as a livable wage you'd have to increase it every year at an accelerating rate to keep ahead of it.
    yes you would. You'd have to even assuming this wasn't true because there is still inflation. I don't see the point to this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Scandinavia has a broader tax base than the USA, however.
    Because there EVERYone pays taxes, yes?

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  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I'm not sure what your point here is. I think the ACA is better than nothing. I think single payer would be better.
    And I think there are still better ways. I'm just grateful the ACA isn't as bad as it could have been.

    Then if we're going to use the WHO rankings Switzerland is 20th in performance, even worse.
    "Worse" is a relative term considering the fact that if everyone in Europe had great health care and you placed them in a ranking system, someone would still be at the bottom. For instance, the UK, considered to have one of the best health care systems in the world, is #18. Canada is #30. Oh hey look at Sweden in #23.

    yes you would. You'd have to even assuming this wasn't true because there is still inflation. I don't see the point to this discussion.
    The point is that minimum wage increases factually correlate very strongly with inflation. Since this factually increases the cost of labor and production, one can very easily come to the conclusion that there's a causal link between minimum wage hikes and inflation.

  5. #805
    "Worse" is a relative term considering the fact that if everyone in Europe had great health care and you placed them in a ranking system, someone would still be at the bottom. For instance, the UK, considered to have one of the best health care systems in the world, is #18. Canada is #30. Oh hey look at Sweden in #23.
    And there are a bunch of single payer systems above it. That are cheaper. So lets look at those.
    The point is that minimum wage increases factually correlate very strongly with inflation.
    So does my age. Everything that goes up correlates with inflation.

    Since this factually increases the cost of labor and production, one can very easily come to the conclusion that there's a causal link between minimum wage hikes and inflation.
    a=b=c doesn't function with correlations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by undercovergnome View Post
    then we should increase the income tax for the top bracket to teach them a lesson
    punitive taxation, eh? and who do you really think its going to hurt? the rich will dig in harder, and pass those costs down to... yup... you guessed it... YOU!

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 09:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Yeah, pre-revamp Dominos wasn't literally inedible, it just tasted about the same as shitty freezer pizza.
    Random thought, where do you think the money came to bring Domino's back from the brink of bankruptcy?...

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  7. #807
    punitive taxation, eh? and who do you really think its going to hurt? the rich will dig in harder, and pass those costs down to... yup... you guessed it... YOU!
    I take it you're talking about the price of goods and services?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    This mmohampion New Democrat would like papa johns (and the other companies that just happen to be having layoffs right after the election) to actually demonstrate that their layoffs are actually necessary to their businesses as they claim and not political games or retaliation against employees who they believe didn't vote as they demanded.

    But I rather suspect that would end up having the effect you describe.
    Lucky for you their business actions dont need your review or approval, you can chose to support them with your money or you can chose not to, thats all you are entitled to.

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  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    And there are a bunch of single payer systems above it. That are cheaper. So lets look at those.
    Are you looking at the countries actually below Switzerland?

    In fact, the only Scandinavian nation ranked higher than Switzerland is Norway.

    5 of the countries above Switzerland are the PIIGS that are financially insolvent (One of whom recently let a woman die rather than have an abortion), so I don't think we want to follow their lead on anything having to do with the rather broad category of "things that cost money".

    4 more are microstates with fewer than 500,000 residents each.

    And are you really sure you want to use a list where Denmark's health care is barely beating out the United States'? Because I don't see that as helping your side.

    It seems to me that if we have to have universal health care, the program that doesn't attempt to fix prices is the best way to go for both sides of the aisle.

    So does my age. Everything that goes up correlates with inflation.

    a=b=c doesn't function with correlations.
    I don't think you saw that table I posted earlier in the thread that showed how routinely inflation increased above normal every time the minimum wage increased. Sure you can argue that it was several different things in each epoch that caused the inflation spikes... but I see no reason to disregard Occam's Razor here.

    Less than 5 years after the late-60s minimum wage hikes, inflation was regularly topping 10%.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-11-16 at 03:43 AM.

  10. #810
    And are you really sure you want to use a list where Denmark's health care is barely beating out the United States'? Because I don't see that as helping your side.
    If you have problems with the WHO rankings I'd like to hear them. If we're looking abroad for ideas for a health care system, as we should, then we should be looking at the best and the most affordable. Switzerland is neither.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  11. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Oh don't be hard on him, you know he's got secret Pentagon documents that totally prove it, but he just can't show you.
    Thing is, throughout this thread, y'all say their Pizza tastes like shit, so you really expect anyone to think that you'll actually start liking their pizza if they raise their prices to cover healthcare costs for their employees...

    No, what will happen is, 'damn man we feel sorry for you for having to work for a shit pizza company that raised their prices.'

    And no, that wasn't in a Pentagon paper... /snickers and wanders off to make a real pizza.

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  12. #812
    Seran do you ever respond to people who ask you questions or do you just post random responses to posts from 10 pages ago?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    If you have problems with the WHO rankings I'd like to hear them. If we're looking abroad for ideas for a health care system, as we should, then we should be looking at the best and the most affordable. Switzerland is neither.
    I have no problem with the WHO rankings whatsoever. I just feel they support my side more than yours.

    The #1 ranked country spends the 4th highest amount per capita.

    The first country I would even consider looking at as being a good medium would be Iceland or Norway.

    Both of whom engage in price fixing.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-11-16 at 03:53 AM.

  14. #814
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    I love pizza, I sometimes make my own and its so yummy!!#@#!!

  15. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    It makes me sad sometimes that civics isn't a critical component of US education, given the country's status in the world.
    Civics and Government classes should be taught, but the education system today seems more interested in indoctrination instead of education.

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  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    Thing is, throughout this thread, y'all say their Pizza tastes like shit, so you really expect anyone to think that you'll actually start liking their pizza if they raise their prices to cover healthcare costs for their employees...

    No, what will happen is, 'damn man we feel sorry for you for having to work for a shit pizza company that raised their prices.'

    And no, that wasn't in a Pentagon paper... /snickers and wanders off to make a real pizza.
    Yes. That was exactly what we've been driving at this whole time. I commend you on your incisive critical reading skills.

  17. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Ummmm... yes?
    No, a business exists to make money, they do that by selling you something you may or may not need, but their marketing convinces you that you do need/want it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 09:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Defense contracts are an incredibly inefficient way at creating jobs.
    And so was the stimulus program...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 09:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    So we should waste hundreds of billions of dollars when we don't need it, or can obtain similar items / services for much cheaper?

    They need to cut their damn prices, or we should buy our goods / services from someone else. I thought Republicans liked the free market!
    Stimulus program for 'shovel ready' projects that weren't spent more money and employed less than the defense industry did... and lets not even begin examining the request from the administration to the defense contractors about 'dont send out your pink slips before the election, if you get sued we'll pay the costs'

    no... lets not look at that request at all.

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  18. #818
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    A bit late there Seran.

  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    How many jobs can you create building a single F-35 for $20,000,000,000+?

    How many jobs can you create by building bridges, roads, and schools with that money?
    funny thing, for that 20B$ number you quoted... you can buy 120+ F-35s, as the flyaway cost is 154M, might want to check your facts, or cut the dishonesty next time.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 10:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    It goes well beyond that. If you notice, almost everyone in power today has inherited it. You rarely, if ever, see someone who has earned a damn thing when it comes down to it. Sure we have a few who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and managed to turn it into platinum (IE Bill Gates) but you have never seen anyone who was born as a bottom of the barrel player who made it to the top. Closest I have seen is the guys who made the TapOut brand of clothing and they haven't hit the level of income I am talking about yet either.

    Well when you have inherited wealth like these people have, you end up having worthless children who have no idea what it is like to actually be human and have a huge disconnect between themselves and the rest of the world where they don't even see us as people but resources to be exploited and to be honest, when they get up to that level of income, they start to judge their own worth as a person based on it and it becomes less about making an income to provide and more about seeing who can get the higher top score.
    But thats the thing, you dont notice, or you just aren't paying attention, plenty of successful folks inherited nothing, were given nothing and are successful. But those folks are counter to your silver spoon arguement... Several examples to shoot holes in your claim, every single inner city kid that did make it big in sports, just to point at one particular group.

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  20. #820
    More people talking about economics that have no idea what the hell they are talking about yay!

    Point A: The economy is actually fine omg who knew?!

    Point B: As stated and mentioned countless times during the election, these voters wanted romney because he supports a model that only benefits corporation growth vs middle and lower class growth. To put it simply those two named companies, papa johns and whatever energy company that was wants in layman's terms more money in their pocket. What they are threatening to do has nothing to do with the actual economic growth and the plans obama has for the country.

    Point C: Obama is actually in this term, following quite the opposite of his actual campaign promises. AKA he is investing in american environmentally unsafe policies. Reducing subsidies giving more jobs in the end goal which will cause the country to go into an economic expansion and giving us more money.

    TL;DR stfu about the economy it's fine and secondly the expansion is happening now.

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