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  1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Sure you are. There are lots of factors for inflation. There are lots of factors for purchasing power. Lots of factors for poverty etc etc etc. If you want to say the minimum wage has failed because its a bad policy you need to account for all the factors involved in povery and inflation.
    Alright, let's take a leap of faith and pretend the minimum wage DOESN'T cause inflation.

    Let's look at raw purchasing power (Which, for the last time, is directly tied to inflation).

    In 1950, the FMW was $.75/hour. That's about $7.20 in today's dollars. For that the average rent of $42/month could be earned in about 1.5 weeks' worth of work.

    In 1960, the FMW was $1/hour or $7.81 in today's dollars. For that, the average rent of $71 could be paid off in just UNDER 2 weeks.

    In 1970 (the golden age, so to speak) the FMW was $1.60 or $9.54. For that, the average rent of $108 could be paid off in about 67-68 hours.

    1980, the FMW is $3.10 ($8.70 in today's dollars, higher than 1960). For that, the average rent of $243 would take just under 2 weeks to pay off (78 hours).

    1990, FMW is $3.80 or $6.73 in today's dollars. Average rent of $447 takes 118 hours worth of work to pay off.

    2000, FMW is $5.15 or $6.92 today. Average rent is $602. Almost the same 117 hours.

    2012, FMW is $7.35 and the average rent is $789 taking 109 hours to pay.

    The simple fact is that the minimum wage has been more or less keeping up with inflation (In the 70s, outpacing it) and the simple facts are that, in very short order, it gets priced out of being viable again.

    You can argue a multitude of factors are in play but the one, undeniable fact is that the FMW has been keeping up with inflation (and, thus, purchasing power).

    Why won't the MW get you a decent apartment anymore? I couldn't say. It could be that middle class incomes have been increasing faster than the minimum wage and the demand they've spurred has priced poor people out of the market.

    Whatever the case might be, it's a 74 year old experiment that hasn't yielded any long-term results and I think it's time to explore other options.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Sure you are. There are lots of factors for inflation. There are lots of factors for purchasing power. Lots of factors for poverty etc etc etc. If you want to say the minimum wage has failed because its a bad policy you need to account for all the factors involved in povery and inflation.
    In each of those examples there instances where a sole factor can be reasonably blamed

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/108966979.html
    EVERETT, Wash. (AP) - Boeing Co. is hiring machinists as it starts ramping up production.

    The Daily Herald of Everett reports that Boeing has added nearly 1,000 production workers in the past eight weeks, including about 190 it plans to hire Friday.

    The Machinists union says that would be the highest number of new machinists hired by Boeing in a single week since 2005.

    After slowing some production lines because of the recession, Boeing says it will speed up its 737, 777 and 747 programs next year.
    I think Boeing is a fucking idiot to do it in Washington.

    Don't they have a perfectly good plant in South Carolina?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 06:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You know what happens when a business cuts its compensation? Businesses that can offer better compensation get their workers. You can't cut compensation without negative consequences on your business.
    Tell that to Walmart. Like they care when someone quits. Even en masse.

  4. #984
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I think Boeing is a fucking idiot to do it in Washington.

    Don't they have a perfectly good plant in South Carolina?
    Yes, but do they have skilled, educated workers to get? Our education system is abysmal.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Can you provide an example of this occurring? Please by very specific. Don't show me Obama blaming Bush, show me Obama blaming Bush for something that was actually an Obama failure.
    Democrats repeals Glass-Steagal, then blame Republicans for 2007 subprime crisis.

  6. #986
    Herald of the Titans Nadev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    We should pay teachers more, to attract better teachers.
    Which means everyone's taxes go up, no?
    Men!

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I picked Biden because he may throw Obama into the Death Star's reactor core, restoring balance to the Force.

    Now having a ball on SWTOR!

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Ignore Laize; we went at it about a week ago. He literally cannot conceive that these things have multiple effects.
    I'm wondering if sound even reaches your ears way up there on Bullshit Mountain. Of course multiple things can cause inflation (Quantitative Easing for one). It's absolutely inconceivable that price-fixing the commodity that is ubiquitous across all sectors wouldn't cause inflation, though.

    American teachers are notoriously overworked and underpaid compared to teachers in more successful systems.
    You mean like Finland who has the best teaching system in the world, pays similar salaries and less per pupil?

    I'd say Teachers (specifically their unions) are the problem with the American Educational System.

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    But, they are not waiting to see what happens nor did they know what exectly Romney was going to do with Obamacare, as he promised to keep provisions that were popular, like removal of pre-existing conditions. It's not finality, because it's preemptive.
    Really? you see impending changes to Obamacare that would please business owners? Please OMG share, I have to know.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal.

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Yes, but do they have skilled, educated workers to get? Our education system is abysmal.
    I think they're better equipped to answer that question than I.

    I see no reason SC wouldn't have workers with the skillset required.

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by cymraeg13 View Post
    Democrats repeals Glass-Steagal, then blame Republicans for 2007 subprime crisis.
    This is a remarkably poor example, as Obama surely didn't repeal Glass-Steagal.

    (This is putting aside other issues with the comment, and simply noting that it doesn't fit my challenge at all)

  11. #991
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm wondering if sound even reaches your ears way up there on Bullshit Mountain. Of course multiple things can cause inflation (Quantitative Easing for one). It's absolutely inconceivable that price-fixing the commodity that is ubiquitous across all sectors wouldn't cause inflation, though.
    Don't be ridiculous, we simply disagreed. You're not the arbiter or rightness and nor am I.

    I'd say Teachers (specifically their unions) are the problem with the American Educational System.
    Nah. It's clearly a lack of pay equivalent to the jobs who also have professional degrees, a lack of homogeneity, a lack of centralised structure, a reliance upon local taxes severely inhibiting poorer districts, a severe disparity in pay between nicer states and poorer states perpetuating the problems, a blatant overreliance on STEM as a solution to all ills and significant social problems of people like you attacking teachers implying education is not worthwhile.

    I'd say those are far more important problems.

    I see no reason SC wouldn't have workers with the skillset required.
    And I see plenty of reason, given that's where I teach. A significantly shit education system ran by Republicans causes a constant cycle of brain-drain and economic downturn.

    Also, who really wants to fund the black schools here? Certainly not the state government.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Don't be ridiculous, we simply disagreed. You're not the arbiter or rightness and nor am I.



    Nah. It's clearly a lack of pay equivalent to the jobs who also have professional degrees, a lack of homogeneity, a lack of centralised structure, a reliance upon local taxes severely inhibiting poorer districts, a severe disparity in pay between nicer states and poorer states perpetuating the problems, a blatant overreliance on STEM as a solution to all ills and significant social problems of people like you attacking teachers implying education is not worthwhile.

    I'd say those are far more important problems.
    No one wants to be a teacher because the market is over-saturated as shit, no matter where you live.

    And throwing money at them would solve absolutely nothing.

    Do we really want to raise taxes on everyone at this time?

  13. #993
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    No one wants to be a teacher because the market is over-saturated as shit, no matter where you live.

    And throwing money at them would solve absolutely nothing.

    Do we really want to raise taxes on everyone at this time?
    No great candidates want to be a teacher because they get paid shit. The market is NOT saturated in certain areas (unsurprisingly where the pay is terrible) and certain subjects. If you can't give 'em prestige, give them money. It is a specialised job after all, akin to a lawyer.

    And you invest in education for a reason; it's why certain (blue) states keep getting more jobs and start ups and certain (red) states just keep limping along.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  14. #994
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Considering Congress's inability to actually get their shit together, aren't tax increases a near certainty for the coming year?

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    No one wants to be a teacher because the market is over-saturated as shit, no matter where you live.
    Apropos of nothing real specific, I'd just like to note that a strong salary structure and a priority based hiring system would attract me to teaching science at a high school level, and I have Ph.D. in Microbiology/Immunology. The present system actively turns me away from teaching - I think we're doing something wrong with someone with a high degree of expertise in biology is effectively discouraged from entering teaching.

  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This is a remarkably poor example, as Obama surely didn't repeal Glass-Steagal.

    (This is putting aside other issues with the comment, and simply noting that it doesn't fit my challenge at all)
    I said nothing about Obama; stop making assumptions. I will take your refusal to acknowledge my point as a concession.

  17. #997
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Nah. It's clearly a lack of pay equivalent to the jobs who also have professional degrees, a lack of homogeneity, a lack of centralised structure, a reliance upon local taxes severely inhibiting poorer districts, a severe disparity in pay between nicer states and poorer states perpetuating the problems, a blatant overreliance on STEM as a solution to all ills and significant social problems of people like you attacking teachers implying education is not worthwhile.

    I'd say those are far more important problems.
    Excuse me, but you'll find no bigger proponent of education than myself. I actually take umbrage at the insinuation I'm anti-intellectual.

    I also happen to live in NJ. One of the wealthiest states in the nation. Our teachers rank 10th in quality. You know who's first? Texas.

    We also rank #39 in education efficiency. We're pretty good in Education Input/Output though.

    Collectively, the public unions have bilked the NJ taxpayers for all their worth. There is literally no one to blame but the unions for our predicament. Our taxes are among the highest in the nation and we still have no money to pay the lavish benefits we've showered our public workers with. AND THEY'VE STILL DELIVERED BARELY MEDIOCRE RESULTS.

    The one thing FDR was right about was that public workers' unions should not have the right to collective bargaining.

  18. #998
    Herald of the Titans Nadev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Apropos of nothing real specific, I'd just like to note that a strong salary structure and a priority based hiring system would attract me to teaching science at a high school level, and I have Ph.D. in Microbiology/Immunology. The present system actively turns me away from teaching - I think we're doing something wrong with someone with a high degree of expertise in biology is effectively discouraged from entering teaching.
    Ever entertained the idea of college biology?
    Men!

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I picked Biden because he may throw Obama into the Death Star's reactor core, restoring balance to the Force.

    Now having a ball on SWTOR!

  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by cymraeg13 View Post
    I said nothing about Obama; stop making assumptions. I will take your refusal to acknowledge my point as a concession.
    The whole exchange started with you saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by cymraeg13 View Post
    Blaming a former administration for your own failures is popular as well.
    The repeal of Glass-Steagel as it pertains to the ensuing crisis has nothing at all to do with this. In the future, try to not be spectacularly disingenuous when addressing me, I will call you out on your bullshit.

  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    No great candidates want to be a teacher because they get paid shit. The market is NOT saturated in certain areas (unsurprisingly where the pay is terrible) and certain subjects. If you can't give 'em prestige, give them money. It is a specialised job after all, akin to a lawyer.

    And you invest in education for a reason; it's why certain (blue) states keep getting more jobs and start ups and certain (red) states just keep limping along.
    Actually Texas is the most rapidly growing economy in the United States and has been leaching jobs from California for some time now.

    Are they blue? I haven't checked in a while...

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