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  1. #1161
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    The fact that our athletes go there is a reflection on how inefficient the FDA is.
    Guys..... Hold a moment here....
    The example of top notch athletes that earn millions every year is a horrendous example to begin with.

    You know, I want to remind you here, that the Worlds best heart transplant specialist, the pioneer of that kind of surgery, was from South Africa. Professor Barnard, as prime example.

    Such things have absolutely nothing to do with any healthcare system in any given country. Kobe Bryant could afford to pay millions on medical treatment, if he had to. It's nothing but a talent issue. There are specially gifted doctors spread out all over the world, and people just sometimes do or have to go there, if the best treatment is needed. There are also Germans traveling to the USA for treatment, because the best specialist just happens to be there.

    I don't know where Kobe went. But I do know for example that Dr. Mueller-Wohlfarth is a World renowned specialist in sports injuries.
    He's the team doc for Bayern Munich for decades, as well as the doc of the German National Football team. What he treads will heal.
    Magic hands... Some doctors have that... And it's not a matter of the country.

  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by jmt View Post

    2) Americans aren't opposed to paying into systems that helps others in their time of need. However, people in America are opposed to the rampant abuse that occurs in those systems and the fact that they are poorly run (in large).
    How on Earth can you know that abuse runs rampant in those systems when we don't even have those very systems to for them to even abuse it? o_O
    You're just going off of persona opinion and conjecture... not any facts at all.

    For that matter... how could SOMEBODY possibly abuse a universal health-care system!? o_O

  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    I wonder that too.. Especially looking at natural resources alone.
    The only thing Germany really has in large amounts is brown coal, yet we still import 21% coal from Russia. As well as we import 41% of natural gas, and 31% of oil from Russia.
    In my younger days I was very left leaning. Left from the SPD. When getting older, I shifted kinda to the center. One comes to reason and starts to respect good ideas no matter from which side they originate. One thing however never changed.
    I too believe in "free" (because it isn't free at all, just intelligent organized) healthcare, and Welfare.

    People come first.
    You have to credit also the rest of the eurozone or soon-to-be-eurozone countrys also since the whole of what Germany produces in almost all industys go on sale there. That's also one of the aspect why they choose to bale Greece and why EU should not fail and why they dont want it to fail. If your customers won't buy anymore then your in the shit.

    Also explains why China will be the new "hit" market as they are emerging, why Angela Merkel has personal visits to get loans from there or end high value contracts for german/european companies.

    Bottom line is I would never compare Germany to USA, they are so different in almost every aspect.

  4. #1164
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Guys..... Hold a moment here....
    The example of top notch athletes that earn millions every year is a horrendous example to begin with.

    You know, I want to remind you here, that the Worlds best heart transplant specialist, the pioneer of that kind of surgery, was from South Africa. Professor Barnard, as prime example.

    Such things have absolutely nothing to do with any healthcare system in any given country. Kobe Bryant could afford to pay millions on medical treatment, if he had to. It's nothing but a talent issue. There are specially gifted doctors spread out all over the world, and people just sometimes do or have to go there, if the best treatment is needed. There are also Germans traveling to the USA for treatment, because the best specialist just happens to be there.

    I don't know where Kobe went. But I do know for example that Dr. Mueller-Wohlfarth is a World renowned specialist in sports injuries.
    He's the team doc for Bayern Munich for decades, as well as the doc of the German National Football team. What he treads will heal.
    Magic hands... Some doctors have that... And it's not a matter of the country.
    If people have the means to get the best treatment, even with a public option, Germany has the people that even the wealthiest chose to go to. It was an attempt to show that a public option does not lead to stagnation.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    How on Earth can you know that abuse runs rampant in those systems when we don't even have those very systems to for them to even abuse it? o_O
    You're just going off of persona opinion and conjecture... not any facts at all.

    For that matter... how could SOMEBODY possibly abuse a universal health-care system!? o_O
    Everyone will become Steve Austin... The way you abuse it, is get cybor parts on goverment dime!

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by jmt View Post
    Let me clear up common misconceptions that people outside of the US tend to have about Americans:

    1) There is not one person in America that does not have access to healthcare. Whether or not they can afford the bills after the fact is the issue.
    i can tell you for an absolute fact that this is not accurate. a couple of weeks ago my cousin was hit by a hit-and-run driver in new orleans. the cops didnt bother to try to find the driver. the hospitals refused to treat him because he had no insurance. they actually released him, his dad had to drive down from tennessee to get him. the injury? his thigh was laid open almost to the bone from about 3 inches from his pelvis to about 2 inches from his knee

  6. #1166
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Bottom line is I would never compare Germany to USA, they are so different in almost every aspect.
    You are spot on here...
    As German who lives in the US for almost 15 years now, I cannot agree more.
    Yet, I cannot help times and again, finding myself doing just that... Comparing.
    But at the same time I only compare when I run into ignorance. And why is that?

    As German I grew up in what we call an elbow society. Survival of the fittest. Whoever is weaker than we are, we push aside with our elbows.
    if you don't know what I mean try going shopping on a Saturday morning at a mid size or larger super market... It's a battlefield, a war zone. Keep an eye on your ankles. lol
    We also adopted capitalism from the USA and progressed it. We have, what experts call a "aggressive social capitalism".
    Which translates into, Germans making good money, if they work continuously. Our middle class is large, and up until the reunion of the two states West&East, the upper class was about on par with the lower class in percentage. Poverty was barely existent. We have everything, we don't have to worry too much.
    But that comes with a price. The aggressive part of the term comes to play.
    The state keeps you in it's stranglehold. You sure make a lot of money, but you sure spend a lot too.. Not much leeway to break out of that, just like that.
    We are World record holders on savings. Germans tend to save up on money, before they spend anything.
    Whereas an American goes and buys a car, usually through financing, the German saves up the money, then goes and puts the money down, all at once.
    That's how we roll. That's how we do it, because that's how it's suppose to be done.. That's how we think in our small minds.
    The overwhelming amount of cars on German streets are paid off. From the newest, to the oldest model you see.
    So, all in all.. we are culturally conservative. Yet we still value social aspects above everything else.
    And if we assholes (compare with the supermarket behavior) can do it, Americans who are generally a lot more polite, and on local level a lot more caring for one another (what they do for each other on neighborhood level is amazing) could do that too.
    All it would need is them to stop falling for fear propaganda from corporate driven politicians.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 12:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    i can tell you for an absolute fact that this is not accurate. a couple of weeks ago my cousin was hit by a hit-and-run driver in new orleans. the cops didnt bother to try to find the driver. the hospitals refused to treat him because he had no insurance. they actually released him, his dad had to drive down from tennessee to get him. the injury? his thigh was laid open almost to the bone from about 3 inches from his pelvis to about 2 inches from his knee
    I can see that happen, yes...
    And if one paid attention to the presidential campaign... it was never argued that a large number of Americans doesn't have access to health care.
    All what was argued was:
    Obama said, everyone will have it.... Romney said, even more won't have it.

    Generally however, ER's cannot refuse treatment, no matter what insurance situation you have.
    It may however turn out to be horrible treatment, like the very bare minimum, in case you don't have insurance.
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2012-11-17 at 06:44 PM.

  7. #1167
    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    i can tell you for an absolute fact that this is not accurate. a couple of weeks ago my cousin was hit by a hit-and-run driver in new orleans. the cops didnt bother to try to find the driver. the hospitals refused to treat him because he had no insurance. they actually released him, his dad had to drive down from tennessee to get him. the injury? his thigh was laid open almost to the bone from about 3 inches from his pelvis to about 2 inches from his knee
    I also have a next-door neighbor who had to drive to Mexico to get medical treatment for her husband's cancer. The reason is their current insurance refused to pay it for a ridiculous pre-existing loophole, and no hospital in America would take them in without the insurance.

    The husband eventually died... and she's now in the process of moving to Mexico.

  8. #1168
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Generally however, ER's cannot refuse treatment, no matter what insurance situation you have.
    It may however turn out to be horrible treatment, like the very bare minimum, in case you don't have insurance.
    yeah, that was my understanding as well. if i didnt know everybody involved and know this occurred for absolute fact i would honestly think there was something missing from the story or that it was made up. but yeah, they refused to treat and released him with a very large, very open wound. i dont know if this is any type of national trend, or if was a really horrible hospital in particular

  9. #1169
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    I also have a next-door neighbor who had to drive to Mexico to get medical treatment for her husband's cancer. The reason is their current insurance refused to pay it for a ridiculous pre-existing loophole, and no hospital in America would take them in without the insurance.

    The husband eventually died... and she's now in the process of moving to Mexico.
    Friend of mine's wife had her ovaries removed, was an emergency surgery even. They released her from the hospital on the second day after the surgery. No insurance.
    I couldn't believe it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 01:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    yeah, that was my understanding as well. if i didnt know everybody involved and know this occurred for absolute fact i would honestly think there was something missing from the story or that it was made up. but yeah, they refused to treat and released him with a very large, very open wound. i dont know if this is any type of national trend, or if was a really horrible hospital in particular
    Not sure, but sounds like they could sue the hospital.
    I know frivolous lawsuits flooding this country. But this case is not one of them.
    It's a very valid reason, in my opinion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 01:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    If people have the means to get the best treatment, even with a public option, Germany has the people that even the wealthiest chose to go to. It was an attempt to show that a public option does not lead to stagnation.
    No, on that aspect you are absolute correct.

    For myself, I trust the German docs more than the American docs. I feel more like a patient there, and not so much like a object of profits.

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas
    *
    That was more-so in regards to our welfare systems. My apologies for clarity.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 02:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    i can tell you for an absolute fact that this is not accurate. a couple of weeks ago my cousin was hit by a hit-and-run driver in new orleans. the cops didnt bother to try to find the driver. the hospitals refused to treat him because he had no insurance. they actually released him, his dad had to drive down from tennessee to get him. the injury? his thigh was laid open almost to the bone from about 3 inches from his pelvis to about 2 inches from his knee
    New Orleans, by in large, is a shady place. Regardless, having been on the business side of healthcare all of my adult working life, hospitals are very aware of the law suits that occur from doing such things. So, either the example is exaggerated or your "friend" has a legitimate case and should contact a lawyer.

    My dad was recently (less than 2 months ago) in a motorcycle accident that cost him his right foot among other fairly serious injuries. By the time the hospital actually figured out he was medically insured (or even had money for that matter), he had been in trauma ICU for 4 days and had undergone multiple surgeries.

    edit: Misquoted.
    Last edited by jmt; 2012-11-17 at 08:28 PM.

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    i can tell you for an absolute fact that this is not accurate. a couple of weeks ago my cousin was hit by a hit-and-run driver in new orleans. the cops didnt bother to try to find the driver. the hospitals refused to treat him because he had no insurance. they actually released him, his dad had to drive down from tennessee to get him. the injury? his thigh was laid open almost to the bone from about 3 inches from his pelvis to about 2 inches from his knee
    http://www.emtala.com/law/index.html


    There is more to this story than we are hearing. It is illegal in a major way for anyone with a life threatening injury to be turned away and refused treatment. The law state that ppl will be evaluated, stabilized and may be transferred to another facility once they are stabilized. Perhaps your friend was evaluated and released because he did not need any medical treatment but as a nurse who worked in ER for more than 20 plus years I'm not buying it and your misleading ppl for some reason.

    To take it a step further it is actually, threat to life or limb which translates to injured.
    Last edited by Zigzagzoom; 2012-11-17 at 09:09 PM.

  12. #1172
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post

    For myself, I trust the German docs more than the American docs. I feel more like a patient there, and not so much like a object of profits.
    Something I found when I was considering either going to Germany or the US for my medical training was that overall, in Germany the medical system is far more personable. On all levels of the field, focus was put highly on the patient and fixing not only the presented condition, but the well being overall. You got the impression that the doctor cared about you because patient-oriented care is definitely the primary objective there. In the US, it is far more split; while I would never say that all US doctors are bad, there are a substantial amount who very obviously are either disease-state focused or even exploitative in their focus (Mercola being a perfect example of this).

  13. #1173
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Should have thought about that before you busted the surplus.
    There WAS no fucking surplus. It never existed!

    Look. It's right here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...es_public_debt

    At no point during the Clinton Presidency did gross federal debt go down. PUBLIC debt went down because Clinton started borrowing from other sources.

    I'm not bashing Clinton because, for a Democrat, I thought he did a pretty good job. But no one deserves credit for something they didn't do.

  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Something I found when I was considering either going to Germany or the US for my medical training was that overall, in Germany the medical system is far more personable. On all levels of the field, focus was put highly on the patient and fixing not only the presented condition, but the well being overall. You got the impression that the doctor cared about you because patient-oriented care is definitely the primary objective there. In the US, it is far more split; while I would never say that all US doctors are bad, there are a substantial amount who very obviously are either disease-state focused or even exploitative in their focus (Mercola being a perfect example of this).
    Germany has 1+ more doctors per 1000 people than the US. I'm not saying that's the only factor for the difference in experience, but it's a major one.

    It would also result in a lower cost.

  15. #1175
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    I am saying you are a full of shit. What do you win by pretending to be something you are not? It's what all this Obama crap is based on, imagination and make belief.
    Exactly my point. What do I win? Admiration and acceptance from a bunch of guys and gals on the internet who have absolutely 0 relevance to my life at all? You've kind of backed up my own point there ...

  16. #1176
    Healthcare cost way too much unlike 2 million free pizza.
    "We don't need Blizz to nerf the content. We need it to be less terrible." - Totalbiscuit

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Wait... what?

    Somehow putting money under my bed is more destructive than launching it into the sun?
    If you put $200 million under your bed (or fire it into the Sun) the result is the same, $200 million is removed from the system and the remaining dollars become that much more valuable.

    If you convert your dollars into Cayman Islands Dollars, you're really just trading your dollars to someone else who's going to spend those dollars in America.

    You can't remove money from a system. The only entity that can is the Federal Reserve.

  18. #1178
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Exactly my point. What do I win? Admiration and acceptance from a bunch of guys and gals on the internet who have absolutely 0 relevance to my life at all? You've kind of backed up my own point there ...
    So arguing a valid viewpoint in a discussion doesn't matter at all if its in an online setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmt View Post
    Germany has 1+ more doctors per 1000 people than the US. I'm not saying that's the only factor for the difference in experience, but it's a major one.

    It would also result in a lower cost.
    Its a factor, sure, but the differing treatment focus is the prime reason for the difference here. Its distressingly common for people in the US to be prescribed things like blood pressure medication without being educated on life changes to help their blood pressure, or for diabetics to not be given training on diet and exercise. Things like this are far more established in Germany.

    The reason behind lower costs is extremely multifaceted, and in relation to other factors the proportion of doctors to patients isn't as important.

  19. #1179
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Which one of the dozens of countries?
    The PIIGS?

    I like Switzerland. If I had to pick one European country to take cues from, it would be them.

    Guns everywhere and none of this single-payer nonsense. Oh and a policy of non-intervention in foreign affairs. I like that.

  20. #1180
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    The rich want to stay rich and keep the poor, poor.

    It works for them 2 ways actually.. While they can in fact be rich, not even comparing them to the "poor".
    But if they also make it such a big gap between the 2, they will seem even richer, by comparison.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

    <~$~("The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise.")~$~> I.A.

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