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  1. #1081
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Well the alternative of allowing their representatives to negotiate their compensation hasn't been working so fucking well for the states of California and New Jersey.

    I think a law is in order that repeals public sector unions' collective bargaining rights.
    Denying people power is never acceptable. They unionised because governments ritually fucked them over. It's one of the checks and balances in the system.

    By the way, I did want to point out I strongly believe in pay freezes with the legal requirement to match a pay increase within a minimum amount of years for situations like this. Teachers aren't paid well but neither are they paid horribly.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    I wouldn't mind that if teachers could trust their elected bodies. But history has shown they can't be trusted.
    Yeah.

    I'm doing my best to not go into rant mode.

    My GF is a teacher, she does English language learner stuff. I won't go into details right now, but she comes home every day pretty much ready to explode on the bureaucracy that created the standardized tests that determine whether she stays employed.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  3. #1083
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I actually thought that salary number was lower.

    I know their total benefits package includes full vision, dental and medical 100% subsidized by the state as well as a 100% subsidized pension fund.

    Oh, and 3 months off every year.
    Some more statistics about NYJ teachers.

    Average base salary for public elementary/highschool teachers with bachelor's degree as highest degree:
    Under two years experience: $45,370
    10-20 years: $59,390
    20+: $72,840

    Same as above but with master's degree:
    Under two years experience: $50,400
    10-20 years: $66,070
    20+ years: $81,170

    This is before any extra pay for overtime/bonuses or any other benefits are valued. Data is also from 2008, so you can expect the values today to be slightly higher.

    Source

    Total school-year and summer earned income is about 7% higher than the base salary on average in the US. The average base salary for public school teachers in the US is about 30% higher than for private school teachers with the same degree (national level).

    (Source)
    Last edited by mmoc43ae88f2b9; 2012-11-17 at 10:15 AM.

  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Denying people power is never acceptable. They unionised because governments ritually fucked them over. It's one of the checks and balances in the system.

    By the way, I did want to point out I strongly believe in pay freezes with the legal requirement to match a pay increase within a minimum amount of years for situations like this. Teachers aren't paid well but neither are they paid horribly.
    I'm not opposing their right to unionize. I'm opposing their right to "collective bargaining" without their real employer sitting at the table.

    Forcing them to present their case to the Legislature would remedy that.

  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Yeah.

    I'm doing my best to not go into rant mode.

    My GF is a teacher, she does English language learner stuff. I won't go into details right now, but she comes home every day pretty much ready to explode on the bureaucracy that created the standardized tests that determine whether she stays employed.
    I've held myself back from this conversation like a pro. People really have no idea what teaching is like, especially politicians - it's why I would NEVER trust them to designate my value to society.

    I'm not opposing their right to unionize. I'm opposing their right to "collective bargaining" without their real employer sitting at the table.

    Forcing them to present their case to the Legislature would remedy that.
    Who exactly are they bargaining with then, excusing my ignorance? If you're genuinely telling me that the union representative doesn't bargain with someone from the legislature, then in this case I am completely agreeing with you. That's fundamentally wrong.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  6. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Yeah.

    I'm doing my best to not go into rant mode.

    My GF is a teacher, she does English language learner stuff. I won't go into details right now, but she comes home every day pretty much ready to explode on the bureaucracy that created the standardized tests that determine whether she stays employed.
    How the fuck do you think NJ taxpayers feel when we're so onerously taxed we're experiencing brain drain as companies flee the state while the cost of living keeps going up?

  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm opposing their right to "collective bargaining"...
    Collective bargaining reduces inefficiencies if conducted by one person/entity to represent the whole.

    Oh fuck, we can't reduce the whole world to economic terms.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Pardon me... as someone who has a double BS in Physics and Math, and who has several years of experience teaching at the University level of both: why the fuck shouldn't we be paying teachers who are as qualified as me at least as much as I make at my actual profession, which has nothing to do with either of my degrees? We're losing the best people. The best people should be teaching, at least part time, so that we can get the next generation of best people. Right now, that's basically impossible.
    The best people in a field aren't always the best teachers. The best teachers are also not those with the best knowledge of a certain field.

    Additionally, the output of the greatest minds is more highly valued in many private sector jobs than it is valued in teaching. So no, we shouldn't necesasrily have out greatest minds as teachers.

  9. #1089
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Collective bargaining reduces inefficiencies if conducted by one person/entity to represent the whole.

    Oh fuck, we can't reduce the whole world to economic terms.
    Yeah because it's totally efficient to "bargain" with a boss whose concern isn't the well-being of the state, but merely the educational system.

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    The best people in a field aren't always the best teachers. The best teachers are also not those with the best knowledge of a certain field.

    Additionally, the output of the greatest minds is more highly valued in many private sector jobs than it is valued in teaching. So no, we shouldn't necesasrily have out greatest minds as teachers.
    I actually agree with this; however, we should damn well be trying to get "great" and "good" minds into teaching rather that "minimally adequate." Fostering a situation where more great minds can rise should always be encouraged.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    I actually agree with this; however, we should damn well be trying to get "great" and "good" minds into teaching rather that "minimally adequate." Fostering a situation where more great minds can rise should always be encouraged.
    Sure, but throwing money at the problem won't help. Other countries are getting much better results with much less money.

  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    How the fuck do you think NJ taxpayers feel when we're so onerously taxed we're experiencing brain drain as companies flee the state while the cost of living keeps going up?
    I don't know, I've never lived in NJ. And I don't see what that has to do with I said. In the comment you quoted, I didn't say anything about salary.

    But...

    I also live in a very blue state. It happened to have a Governor for 8 years who would not raise state taxes to cover a deficit he inherited. Fine. Trickle down is fun... because of that, local governments had to raise taxes to cover silly things like, idk, the fucking fire department.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  13. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Sure, but throwing money at the problem won't help. Other countries are getting much better results with much less money.
    I agree with this far more also. America needs a significant cultural and social shift to valuing education as a priority, respecting teachers and encouraging students to study.

    I personally don't think teachers necessarily need money thrown at them; most of us do it because we love it and we want reasonable compensation for the amount of school we had to go through to get here. But if we fail a student, then the student should stay failed no matter what pressure the parents put on the school and it should have no effect on how much funding the school gets too. Stuff like that drives us far more mad than pay.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  14. #1094
    I actually agree with this; however, we should damn well be trying to get "great" and "good" minds into teaching rather that "minimally adequate." Fostering a situation where more great minds can rise should always be encouraged.
    They need to work more on creating and enforcing standards to ensure quality.There also needs to be more competition, that always encourages development and improvement.

  15. #1095
    Here's to hoping that all the people who get released from Papa Johns go on to open their own pizza chains. It doesn't take much to make a better pizza than Papa Johns. I could do it and I'm a crap cook.

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by willjones410 View Post
    Here's to hoping that all the people who get released from Papa Johns go on to open their own pizza chains. It doesn't take much to make a better pizza than Papa Johns. I could do it and I'm a crap cook.
    Hallelujah, brother.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  17. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by walexia View Post
    They need to work more on creating and enforcing standards to ensure quality.There also needs to be more competition, that always encourages development and improvement.
    It's nightmarishly hard to enforce standards for teachers because students drastically differ. I don't see how competition would work; teachers have to teach. You can't have up-and-coming teachers compete unless they too have jobs to be judged on.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  18. #1098
    DUDE. WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO MONEY TO KEEP GOING DOWN AN UNSUSTAINABLE PATH?!
    I have thought about this alot. I really wonder Where is the money to sustain us coming from right now, and if we can keep borrowing money without any consequence.If so.. then why not just keep borrowing ??We are already 16 trillion dollars in debt why don't we go for 32 trillion or even 60 dollars into debt....i mean if they didn't complain about us getting into the first 15 trillion why would they care?(ever).

    I hope you guys can see my reasoning here.This debt thing is beginning to look like an illusion.

  19. #1099
    Quote Originally Posted by walexia View Post
    I have thought about this alot. I really wonder Where is the money to sustain us coming from right now, and if we can keep borrowing money without any consequence.If so.. then why not just keep borrowing ??We are already 16 trillion dollars in debt why don't we go for 32 trillion or even 60 dollars into debt....i mean if they didn't complain about us getting into the first 15 trillion why would they care?(ever).

    I hope you guys can see my reasoning here.This debt thing is beginning to look like an illusion.
    Yeah... see we're paying $240 billion a year in interest when our debt level is "only" $16 trillion.

    If we keep borrowing people are going to get leery of our ability to pay it back and interest rates will rise.

    FYI 3% interest on $60 trillion in debt is $1.8 trillion a year. In interest alone. Nevermind paying off principal.

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Well the alternative of allowing their representatives to negotiate their compensation hasn't been working so fucking well for the states of California and New Jersey.

    I think a law is in order that repeals public sector unions' collective bargaining rights and I'd rather eviscerate the education system for another year than see another round of raises on the highest paid teachers in the nation.
    Just terrible, i think a law is in order that forbids people like Romney to put all his money in tax heavens like the Caymans

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