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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I can top that: 1 year in MC and our shammy never had his headpiece drop. At least they added tokens afterwards..and badges of Justice / VPs to allow you and buy some peieces.
    Not a shield.

    I wore a 219 shield for 3 months (no one on Shandris could/would do ToC for something a tad better). I even made a complaint thread on the WoW forums about it (and the 50+k views must have been a popular point), because that was a tad crazy.

    Like I told the dev there, just because a player had to wait longer, doesn't mean it's right.

    There's some reasonable expectations in gaming of time+effort=reward. Point blank.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
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  2. #22
    Yup, RNG is part of WoW. And many other MMOs.

    Maybe you should be more appreciative of JP, Valor and Reputation? Things that originally didn't exist, making RNG pretty much the only deciding factor wether or not you got anything at all after a night of raiding.

    I wish the LFR loot system was a bit more transparent, but in the end, what does that change? If anything, people would get frustrated seeing "THEY GOT GEAR, WHY DIDN'T I?!"
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  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Maybe you should be more appreciative of JP, Valor and Reputation?
    Nope, that doesn't apply in gaming.

    Time+effort=reward.

    We raid for the reward. If the reward doesn't even drop within 3 months (a long time even in a MMO), the RNG is borked. That's called slavery.

    Gamers buck at that...doesn't matter what game. An Asian grinder to a shooter.

    We all know we have to wait for good drops, but it's the amount of time and effort for the reward that is in question.

    When you don't even see a piece of your equipment dropping, yeah, RNG in WoW is indeed borked. WoWers may accept it as a badge of honor, but that's not the norm in gaming. And it's gaming that is how you appeal to more players.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  4. #24
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    It's pretty shitty to be honest. valor was created to help combat RNG but apparently that was a bad thing and now world of warcraft has to turn into diablo... well unless you do dailies of course. I mean they wanted gear dropping off bosses to be more rewarding but it isn't and frankly even before you had valor it was just frustrating. The friends I keep in touch with in game are sick of it. They run lfr, get bags and that's it. They use coins and get gold that's it. It's turning lots of them off of the game.

    Their needs to be a stable system of REWARDING PROGRESSION (not upgrading old gear with your valor points so you can just keep up with your buddies and not fall behind) that isn't tied to dailies and isn't tied to RNG. If I wanted RNG I'd go play diablo.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #25
    I hear "I was fine with RnG when everyone got oneshot at everything, but now some peoples coins get them stuff - and mine doesn't. If their second chance wins - so should mine."
    The second person answering your thread really hit the nail on the head, he just forgot the "/thread".

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Personally prefer the DDO dungeon loot system, and this is how it works (it also has RNG, but in a way that is more rewarding).

    1. Repeatable quest giver near the entrance to a dungeon hands out a quest (makes sense, has to be a purpose for going in there but loot).
    2. That quest has you to kill XYZ or retrieve something.
    3. When you finish killing/obtaining the item, you return back to the quest giver.
    4. You now get a scrolling loot list of rewards to choose from, most not really good, some are like rares...but there's a chance of a really nice epic piece to be in the list (RNG).

    You come away from the dungeon with something as a reward for your time THAT YOU CAN USE (they even have a class filter as the list can be long)...and you can go right back in hoping to farm for another 1 to 6hrs trying to get that epic piece of gear.

    What's bad about the WoW loot system is that it's purely RNG, with little to no reward for time+effort (and to even pick something you can use that maybe not epic, but still pays for the repair bill and time).
    Seems sensible, I kinda like it.

  7. #27
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    You kind of just have to deal with it.

    One week you might be extremely lucky, one week you might get completely screwed over. That's just the way it is.

    I haven't been 90 that long, I'm still queueing up for two heroics every single dayin order to get two pieces I still need (cloak and bracers). The bracers are listed on WoWhead as having a 13% drop rate. I've done that heroic every day for three weeks and have not seen them even drop yet. The cloak, I've only seen drop once and it was ninja'd from me. Yes, it's extremely frustrating but you either keep pushing for it, or you give up completely.

    My first week of LFR I didn't have any elder charms yet, and I got one piece of loot anyways. Great! Second week, I used three charms and got a piece of gear every time I used a charm. Awesome! This week, I used charms and everything, but got gold for extra rolls and regular rolls alike. I also used charms in actual raid and got nothing for it.

    I can't remember a time it hasn't been like this though.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    It's pretty shitty to be honest. valor was created to help combat RNG but apparently that was a bad thing and now world of warcraft has to turn into diablo...
    It's a gating mechanism. It's fine as a concept. People don't blaze through and eat content tomorrow. But, yes, valor (especially valor) was a means to offset the craziness of pure RNG rolls. It's a bandaid of the larger problem.

    In math if your number doesn't drop, tough luck. In gaming if it doesn't drop you wasted days of your life.

    This is why gamers get really upset about it. Most don't expect getting things tomorrow (because no work it's not appreciated), but they expect to get their items to enjoy it before it's worthless and the effort wasted.

    In BF3 when I finally get to be a level 100 Colonel, I'll still have time to enjoy the fruits of that achievement before BF4 comes out. That can't be said when patches come usually in 4 months and you're still waiting for a piece or pieces of current gear. You have no time to even enjoy the fruits, despite working your ass off to try to get them.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    It's a gating mechanism. It's fine as a concept. People don't blaze through and eat content tomorrow. But, yes, valor (especially valor) was a means to offset the craziness of pure RNG rolls. It's a bandaid of the larger problem.

    In math if your number doesn't drop, tough luck. In gaming if it doesn't drop you wasted days of your life.

    This is why gamers get really upset about it. Most don't expect getting things tomorrow (because no work it's not appreciated), but they expect to get their items to enjoy it before it's worthless and the effort wasted.

    In BF3 when I finally get to be a level 100 Colonel, I'll still have time to enjoy the fruits of that achievement before BF4 comes out. That can't be said when patches come usually in 4 months and you're still waiting for a piece or pieces of current gear. You have no time to even enjoy the fruits, despite working your ass off to try to get them.
    The valor cap is enough of a gate I feel. Their is no need to make valor this worthless. Getting a drop doesn't feel any more or less significant. The whole process just feels more and more frustrating though and the overall experience feels less and less rewarding. This is oddly enough only DOUBLED by the use of charms because even those extra rolls SUCK. Wait an hour to get into lfr, wipe on trash because of the bads, kill the boss don't get shit for the first roll don't get shit for the second roll. Get no progression for your troubles.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    I've never quite experienced the RNG-ness of loot as much as in this patch.

    I dinged L90 like 2-3 days after MoP launched... I've crafted my ass off, bought all the best epic gear I could find... BMAH included. Raided my ass off every week, needless to say I did tons of effort and really wanted to be in topnotch gear again this patch around.

    However... the RNG gods have struck me down from my plans... I'm running around in ilvl 477 gear while some people who don't even raid are running around in almost ilvl 490 gear.

    First, there is the lucky coins. This just makes loot even more RNG ... All I get from it is gold, gold, gold, gold, every week gold. Other people get their tierpieces, BiS trinkets, BiS loot overall almost everytime they try to use a coin.

    Secondly, the outdoor worldbosses seem to be screwing me over too. I'm not sure if it's the new lootsystem but I've never quite felt like having such a low chance or success on getting loot from bosses (same in LFR). I've done enough effort to make sure I can kill both Sha and Galleon at least once every week, yet ... same story again, gold, gold, gold, gold, gold... while a friend of mine has gotten loot almost every kill and a fricken epic mount on top of it.

    It's very depressing and not fun to be shafted like this by RNG on loot. When you put in as much or more effort as others and the new luck based lootsystem is so heavily fucking you over. The lucky gold coins... I'm starting to hate the feature, I'm also starting to hate the worldbosses with their random chance on dropping tier items.......
    Please tell me how someone that doesn't raid is at ilvl 490. I'd love to hear it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Nope, that doesn't apply in gaming.

    Time+effort=reward.
    So when you put time into WoW, and even when you don't have luck with drops, you get rewarded with points that eventually can be used to buy an item, that doesn't qualify?
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  12. #32
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    So when you put time into WoW, and even when you don't have luck with drops, you get rewarded with points that eventually can be used to buy an item, that doesn't qualify?
    If only that wasn't behind dailies.. and also much less in quality as well
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-11-10 at 07:10 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    The valor cap is enough of a gate I feel. Their is no need to make valor this worthless. Getting a drop doesn't feel any more or less significant. The whole process just feels more and more frustrating though and the overall experience feels less and less rewarding. This is oddly enough only DOUBLED by the use of charms because even those extra rolls SUCK. Wait an hour to get into lfr, wipe on trash because of the bads, kill the boss don't get shit for the first roll don't get shit for the second roll. Get no progression for your troubles.
    Frustration.

    And how is that good for WoW?

    Some barriers hurts more than it helps, pure RNG is one of them. It's like a doctor with no bedside manner. It's like a pizza without sauce. It's available, but certainly not enjoyable.

    Now imagine weeks of this, and how many players grow tired of it and leave.

    And how is that good for WoW?
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    That can't be said when patches come usually in 4 months and you're still waiting for a piece or pieces of current gear. You have no time to even enjoy the fruits, despite working your ass off to try to get them.
    Indeed, I wrote similar thing about gear treadmill in one of threads. Most "rewarding" is - to log on expansion switches, as PvE reward system (especially after t9) is beyond awful.

    Let's say last boss of instance drops special keyitem to activate vendor of that difficulty. You can use special currency dropping from bosses to buy items from that vendor (at reasonable prices - so you could get a piece of gear per week after full instance clear), which are dropped from bosses and trash (including craft materials and recipes). Such idea was suggested yet on start of WotLK to help improve Badge of Justice vendors. People who enjoys RNG and lottery and who doesn't like "welfare" epics (I am sure someone will come here and will call it "welfare" just because it doesn't involve RNG), they have option to not use it, but they must be ready that some drops, they are after, might not drop for years simply because of RNG.

  15. #35
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    Complaint: LFR gear is too relevant.
    Complaint: I already forgot how shitty VoA/BH could be for drops, and somehow 6 weeks of this expansion is a valid sample size to compare droprates.

    Complaint: Someone will take these complaints seriously, instead of as satire of the stupidity of this thread

  16. #36
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Not a shield.

    I wore a 219 shield for 3 months (no one on Shandris could/would do ToC for something a tad better). I even made a complaint thread on the WoW forums about it (and the 50+k views must have been a popular point), because that was a tad crazy.

    Like I told the dev there, just because a player had to wait longer, doesn't mean it's right.

    There's some reasonable expectations in gaming of time+effort=reward. Point blank.
    Heh, I actually remember having the same problem back in that time. My shaman was wearing a 219 shield for what seemed like forever because nothing better would drop and I remember being mad as heck at my husband because when one finally did drop in a raid he outrolled me for it on his shaman.

    I don't think I ended up replacing it until the next tier when I pugged and won the one off Marrowgar.

  17. #37
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Frustration.

    And how is that good for WoW?

    Some barriers hurts more than it helps, pure RNG is one of them. It's like a doctor with no bedside manner. It's like a pizza without sauce. It's available, but certainly not enjoyable.

    Now imagine weeks of this, and how many players grow tired of it and leave.

    And how is that good for WoW?
    It isn't but the developers have adopted this ridiculous mentality that as long as it's frustrating enough when you finally get it (god knows when that is) you'll feel so much better about getting it. Which is flat out bullshit. I missed out on crown of the netherwind so many times on ONyxia and it was the worst fucking feeling in the universe. When I finally got it after dealing with RNG and being passed over by faggy guild leaders, well it didn't feel better. It felt more like a relief and not like a sense of reward.

    As you pointed out gear doesn't have the permanence it once did in the game and frankly even if it did I wouldn't want to return to that system.

    Ultimately in a quest to keep content going for longer everything has been apportioned much less reward so that you don't progress faster than what they can produce. It is indeed frustrating and LAME as fuck. They went to far this time.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-11-10 at 07:17 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    So when you put time into WoW, and even when you don't have luck with drops, you get rewarded with points that eventually can be used to buy an item, that doesn't qualify?
    Depends on the content being run and what he is waiting to drop. Noone is arguing that time and effort should not be rewarded or that the rewards have to be throttled someway to players do not consume content too fast, what he is saying is when you can run content every week that it is relevant and still not get to enjoy your reward be it a weapon or trinket with a nice proc then that is just wrong in a computer game. I know some MMO players in particular display some sort of masochistic pride in the amount of hours that they slaved for a virtual item that they didn't even get, but it isn't exactly compelling game design and could be better addressed.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    So when you put time into WoW, and even when you don't have luck with drops, you get rewarded with points that eventually can be used to buy an item, that doesn't qualify?
    And what does the points buy?

    Not the drops that only affected by RNG.

    Get it?

    That shield was only a raid drop. Not seeing it until the 19th week was absurd. Not having that shield was like a Rogue without his second dagger.

    What was worse was there were many like me on Shandris like that. We were all in 264s wearing 219 shields. I had to say something about it.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  20. #40
    Mechagnome Raidboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    And what does the points buy?

    Not the drops that only affected by RNG.

    Get it?

    That shield was only a raid drop. Not seeing it until the 19th week was absurd. Not having that shield was like a Rogue without his second dagger.

    What was worse was there were many like me on Shandris like that. We were all in 264s wearing 219 shields. I had to say something about it.
    You don't need BiS to complete raids. Obviously you were getting plenty of other drops if you were in full 264s. So a shield didn't drop for you but yet you had BiS everywhere else big deal. RNG is RNG....gaurnteed loot isn't something that would make the game any better. If everyone had the shield then it wouldn't be special anymore. If all the rogues that killed Illidan got a free set of glaives it wouldn't be special anymore.

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