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  1. #1

    Cool I used to play a rogue... then I took a nerf hammer to the knee.

    GUYS! I am tired of hearing complaints about rogue damage then seeing non rogue players come in and be all like "L2P moron" as if that was the problem so first if you don't play a rogue... GTFO.
    Second the problems with rogues right now are not so much damage related as general mobility and maintaining stealth. The damage, yes, is lacking BUT that will change with gear. The way rogue stats scale and always have, rogue damage is just plain weak early Xpac and gets stronger later on so don't lose hope. What rogues need changed are the fundamental abilities that they and other classes have in order to ensure that rogues have a strong chance at getting an opener (which is supposed to be the point of a stealth class) and maintaining your position and therefore your ability to control and damage opponents.
    Rather than ranting about damage I want rogue players to think of ideas that could make rogues more viable in THE WAYS MENTIONED ABOVE. Forget damage guys, thats out the window. Its better to think about how people could play differently than what changes Blizz could make.

    Example: originally when I went into arena I was consistantly being pulled out of stealth by Spriests and Locks with their massive AOE spells but I rapidly learned how to aviod such unpleasentries with LOS like hiding under the bridge on Nagrand arena while your approaching in stealth.

    Just think about this stuff, I've already solved alot of the new issues created for rogues this patch in my head and practiced them. Not saying I never get pulled out of stealth but not much more often than in Cata.
    We need to get out of the victim mentallity surrounding the infamous "Nerf Hammer of the WOW dev team"
    Last edited by Sionorra; 2012-11-08 at 08:02 AM.

  2. #2
    All I'm going to say in response to this topic is that 9 out of 10 Rogues who complain about mobility have specced into Dirty Tricks or Prey on the Weak.

    That is all, good day sir.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Rogue damage is actually pretty stupid. I got killed several times in a stun lock (doing dailies without pvp trinket >.>) which is really stupid. I don't even know where the damage is coming from since backstab/ambush generally only do 20k non crit and 60k with literally all CDs popped.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome -Raer-'s Avatar
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    I second Bovan, speccing into Paralytic Poison has been the best choice I've made this expac. Damage comes from monitoring your opponents and their buffs/CDs and knowing when to time your own.

  5. #5
    Paralytic Poison and Leeching Poison should be baseline, that would make our quality of life better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terahertz View Post
    Rogue damage is actually pretty stupid. I got killed several times in a stun lock (doing dailies without pvp trinket >.>) which is really stupid. I don't even know where the damage is coming from since backstab/ambush generally only do 20k non crit and 60k with literally all CDs popped.
    Like OP said, GTFO, that mean nothing.

    You're prob playing a boomkin or Spriest even elem shaman those hybrids healer.
    Last edited by gaz770; 2012-11-08 at 07:22 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    All I'm going to say in response to this topic is that 9 out of 10 Rogues who complain about mobility have specced into Dirty Tricks or Prey on the Weak.

    That is all, good day sir.
    Paralytic has little to nothing to do with how rogues lack in mobility. Good luck getting those paralytic stacks against any mage or hunter that isn't bad.

    Also nevermind the fact that dirty tricks provides something that no player of any class would disagree should be baseline for rogues.

    I am in no way saying that rogues are horribad. Just that they ARE lacking in some departments and brushing those concerns off with a rather invalid argument is really not helping progress your class at all.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2012-11-08 at 08:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Paralytic has little to nothing to do with how rogues lack in mobility. Good luck getting those paralytic stacks against any mage or hunter that isn't bad.
    I'm not confident enough in my experience with MoP pvp to weigh in on the mobility argument, but you are missing his point. He isn't suggesting you take it to get the stacks for the extra stun on a different DR (though that is nice). He is suggesting you take it to shiv a root with a rather short cooldown. (If that isn't what you meant Bovan, feel free to correct me.)

  8. #8
    Sesshou already explained my point, you can root your target in place for 4 seconds for a measly 20 energy. We don't need extreme amounts of mobility if our target can't even move. The stun from Paralytic is a nice bonus but I hardly ever see it go off unless I'm trying to tunnel a healer for a long period of time. Which, to be fair, is quite good as well.

  9. #9
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Sesshou already explained my point, you can root your target in place for 4 seconds for a measly 20 energy. We don't need extreme amounts of mobility if our target can't even move. The stun from Paralytic is a nice bonus but I hardly ever see it go off unless I'm trying to tunnel a healer for a long period of time. Which, to be fair, is quite good as well.
    Monks have a better version of Paralytic's Root baseline, without cooldown and without sacrificing another utility poison, yet they seem to be having mobility issues in arenas as well.

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=116095

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I'm not confident enough in my experience with MoP pvp to weigh in on the mobility argument, but you are missing his point. He isn't suggesting you take it to get the stacks for the extra stun on a different DR (though that is nice). He is suggesting you take it to shiv a root with a rather short cooldown. (If that isn't what you meant Bovan, feel free to correct me.)
    My point stands. What use is a root when you can hardly get to your target?

    This is the exact problem warriors faced in 4.3; albeit rogues do have a ton more utility to make up for it but the game's been stuffed even more with cc's, roots and snares so the rogue toolkit being REDUCED when everyone else's was INCREASED is exactly why rogues aren't competitive with most classes right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  11. #11
    ^I'm not sure about the rest of you, but if the class' viability is entirely dependent on a single talent... I'd argue that state of the class or the state of the talent should be reconsidered.

    If Paralytic happens to be what we have to make up for our lack of mobility, Paralytic should, first of all, be baseline... And second, always be active without costing us an additional utility-poison slot.
    Last edited by Incineration; 2012-11-09 at 04:45 AM.

  12. #12
    Like as always been - rogues pperformance in PvP is based around some mandatory talents.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    Monks have a better version of Paralytic's Root baseline, without cooldown and without sacrificing another utility poison, yet they seem to be having mobility issues in arenas as well.

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=116095
    Agreed, but comparing one class to another never really works. Monks are Monks, Rogues are Rogues. We have other things that Monks don't have and they have things we don't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    My point stands. What use is a root when you can hardly get to your target?
    Are you telling me you are never able to get to your target in any circumstance ever? You only need to hit your target once for the root to go off. And that's where our other movement related abilities come into play. But I'd say if you literally can't ever reach your target you have different issues.

    I agree with Incineration about our poison related talents being baseline, but our talents being horrible isn't new.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-11-09 at 11:33 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    ^I'm not sure about the rest of you, but if the class' viability is entirely dependent on a single talent... I'd argue that state of the class or the state of the talent should be reconsidered.

    If Paralytic happens to be what we have to make up for our lack of mobility, Paralytic should, first of all, be baseline... And second, always be active without costing us an additional utility-poison slot.
    Agree with mostly everything - imho leeching and paralytic should be baseline; it's not like we can make strange OP combinations different from what we already have. Anyway i don't agree on the paralytic being totally passive and always active.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Agree with mostly everything - imho leeching and paralytic should be baseline; it's not like we can make strange OP combinations different from what we already have. Anyway i don't agree on the paralytic being totally passive and always active.
    Let me reiterate; The 5 stack - stun shouldn't be passive. The immobilize on Shiv, however, should.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Terahertz View Post
    Rogue damage is actually pretty stupid. I got killed several times in a stun lock (doing dailies without pvp trinket >.>) which is really stupid. I don't even know where the damage is coming from since backstab/ambush generally only do 20k non crit and 60k with literally all CDs popped.
    Yea, it is really stupid to do dailies without a pvp trinket. But there is an easy fix for that, and it is most assuredly unrelated to rogues.

  17. #17
    Don't forget to grab Shuriken Toss if you're concerned with mobility, it really helps

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Musclestalk View Post
    Don't forget to grab Shuriken Toss if you're concerned with mobility, it really helps
    I could pick any of these posts to quote and reply to but this one caught my eye as one of the biggest problems and its answer relates to many previous posts.
    The problem with this is that the epic burst you see from rogues that globals people inside stunlocks is in part due to the anticipation talent. This talent is another which is basically a MUST for most situations (with a few exceptions such as SSM rbg where Shrurikan Toss is hands down superior) it allows me to burst harder with double evis before targets such at shamans and priests (who can use huge % damage reduction abilities while stunned) can react. This is a key point in rogue viability as they rely heavily on stuns in order to secure their burst. Some would argue the garrote works to the same effect and thats true in 1v1 but irrelevant and untrue anywhere that it matters. In 3v3 if you garrote someone, their partners can peal you very easily with a simple slowing effect which many classes including other rogues now can apply from a range.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sionorra View Post
    I could pick any of these posts to quote and reply to but this one caught my eye as one of the biggest problems and its answer relates to many previous posts.
    The problem with this is that the epic burst you see from rogues that globals people inside stunlocks is in part due to the anticipation talent. This talent is another which is basically a MUST for most situations (with a few exceptions such as SSM rbg where Shrurikan Toss is hands down superior) it allows me to burst harder with double evis before targets such at shamans and priests (who can use huge % damage reduction abilities while stunned) can react. This is a key point in rogue viability as they rely heavily on stuns in order to secure their burst. Some would argue the garrote works to the same effect and thats true in 1v1 but irrelevant and untrue anywhere that it matters. In 3v3 if you garrote someone, their partners can peal you very easily with a simple slowing effect which many classes including other rogues now can apply from a range.
    I'm combat and I have yet to try Anticipation because I'm affraid I'm gonna like it and lose my precious shurikens... I got agi trinket/Killing Spree when I need to slaughter someone

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    You just gotta love how there's not a single Rogue in Blood Legions world first.

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