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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    love you're logic... because you are incapable of knowing where to find the info it means it does not exist. No wonder children of today are not half as intelligent as the ones before the internet.
    Look, you guys are saying it's a hotfix that happened AFTER the release of patch 5.0.4. I've checked the hotfixes for EVERY change in september and october at http://www.wowpedia.org/Hotfixes. It doesn't mention any hotfixes involving stampede, except the one about Rabid and the one about the arena bug. it also doesn't mention the supposed october 1st tooltip update, and patches 5.0.5a and 5.0.5b were just small changes that couldn't be hotfixed, no tooltip updates.

    i've checked http://www.wowhead.com/news=207261/b...nges-and-icons, which is the very first 5.1 PTR update, which should contain the tooltip changes for the hotfixes spells. neither it, nor the build after, nor any later builds mention it as well.

    Stampede is the link for the WowDB tooltip. it still shows 175% at this moment, even with the 5.1 PTR already underway. and yes, this IS the PTR link.

    if you guys have some other source outside of the game where this supposed hotfix that nerfed Stampede pets to 25% damage, like a bluepost, a tweet or even a log comparison from Beta to live, then i'd love to hear it, because honestly, you're saying that it got nerfed, but I cannot find a single mention of that nerf.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  2. #22
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    Wowhead for Stampede says the tooltip was changed to 25% on Oct 1.

    How long have you played a hunter? Have you tested it? I didn't think the proof needed to be explicit with the above so I didn't bother searching for it, so I took your advice. I went and looked for it, because I knew you were wrong because I played a hunter in the beta, in live, and for quite awhile now.

    Stampede was changed during the July 13th beta patch. As you and I pointed out, it reduced the CD to 5m, increased the duration to 20s. The tooltip said the pets did 175%, which I said was wrong, and you said actually happened. I then said on Oct 1st the fixed the tooltip to 25%, which you said was a nerf, on live, from what it actually was. Now, the proof, from our very own hunter beta thread:

    Page 117, initial report of 175% damage pets, some incredulity at such a massive buff (shortened CD, increased duration, instant cast, PLUS damage on an already powerful spell?):
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mation/page117

    The next few posts go on to detail how 1) on beta it was actually doing 25% damage for each pet, and the tooltip SAID that, and 2) the damage modifier spell (http://www.wowdb.com/spells/130201-stampede) which was -75% was instead being added on the tooltip to say 175% instead of 25%, which was false.

    This is, IMO, the best post on the subject, by bil:

    Originally Posted by Aettis
    That makes the most sense. 25% seemed to low to me, but I can see why the tooltip would show as 25%(supposed to be 25% off of 100%). 75% I am happy with, 25% I am not.
    The math fits... Was 100% for 10 seconds on a 10 min cd... cd was halved (should reduce the damage by half) and duration was doubled (reduced by half again) so it's a straight shift... Regardless damage will be balanced as beta goes on.
    Is that enough proof? Do we really need to continue? I play a hunter, and I know my class, inside and out. Stampede has never been nerfed on live, in PvE, except as I already illustrated, indirectly through the Rabid nerf. You want to think it's been nerfed because you want to QQ you're somehow not as powerful as you were, and thus Blizzard has unfairly put you lower on the DPS charts - when in reality our PvE balance has only been slightly nerfed since the beginning of MoP via Rabid, and it has not changed where we are in relation to others - good on many fights, average on the rest.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 09:37 PM ----------

    IOW, for those of you who can't keep up: MMO's WoWDB is incorrectly stating the damage modifier as +75%, still, to this day, which led to the ability being listed as 175% pet damage. Wowhead states it's a -75% modifier, and all information from beta hunters indicate that that was what went live.

  3. #23
    hunters are fine.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Wowhead for Stampede says the tooltip was changed to 25% on Oct 1.
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=121818#comments

    where exactly? I looked through every comment and i cannot find a single mention of this change.

    edit: sorry, found it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alteir
    According to the in-game tooltip as of October 1st 2012, the summoned pets only deal 25% of their normal damage.
    Last edited by nzall; 2012-11-13 at 08:45 AM.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  5. #25
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    Well, this thread got real quiet.

    To sum up: Hunters are fine if you know how to play, they have a higher skillcap in PvE than the hunter community is used to, which is why you're seeing median-level hunters drop in rankings. There have been no nerfs to PvE damage on live except the Rabid change. High end hunters are still maintaining very competitive numbers, and bring great utility on many different fights.

  6. #26
    to all the guys saying that hunters are fine:
    can you explain to me why there are basically no hunters anywhere in the world of logs rankings? how can the class be fine, when there are only other classes in the top rankings?
    I was looking at mogu shan vaults 25 heroic rankings.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, this thread got real quiet.

    To sum up: Hunters are fine if you know how to play, they have a higher skillcap in PvE than the hunter community is used to, which is why you're seeing median-level hunters drop in rankings. There have been no nerfs to PvE damage on live except the Rabid change. High end hunters are still maintaining very competitive numbers, and bring great utility on many different fights.
    That's not to sum it up...

    Hunters who were doing top damage are now only in the middle of the pack. Others fall at the bottom.
    Even on fights where the mechanics are in our favor, you'll never beat half the other classes no matter how hard you try.

    Anyone saying hunters are fine think their own raid is a measure for the whole world. I top meters in my guild too but the problem remains that hunters are not competitive.
    5.1 only brings nerfs to BM and buffs to MM so that they'll both end up more closely to SV. So in general all 5.1 will do is make us perform even worse than we allready are.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, this thread got real quiet.

    To sum up: Hunters are fine if you know how to play, they have a higher skillcap in PvE than the hunter community is used to, which is why you're seeing median-level hunters drop in rankings. There have been no nerfs to PvE damage on live except the Rabid change. High end hunters are still maintaining very competitive numbers, and bring great utility on many different fights.
    No we are not. We haven't been and we've known that since beta. The logs show it and prove it on live. What I stated to start with all your bickering and dismissal only managed to reconfirm. Go back and read your own posts Eschatological.

    What's really sad is it's people like you that don't want to admit anything. You think because you're a "top hunter" and "know my class inside and out" you're in the know about everything. You're not. Before I mentioned it, you didn't even know that Stampede ever WAS 175%. So stop the egotistical chest-pounding crap. The end result is the same no matter how much you like stroking yourself in the eyes of others.

    Hunters are a pure DPS class, one that has no other options but DPS. Your validation argument that top hunters are doing great is baseless, the logs and sims have shown otherwise and been confirmed. The only other justification you've given is that "great" hunters like yourself can make up the difference. That's a pretty shallow outlook for everyone else isn't it? Maybe you are in your own guild, but across the board, the class itself is weak. To answer one of your previous inquires young man, I've been playing this class since the game started. December of 2004. I've been a top end raiding hunter in many guilds myself and even worked diligently with other hunters such as Shandara to craft the first real versions of Spreadsheets. Everything I've seen in the last 6 months is exactly what we told the devs would happen. Stampede was too powerful and sustained was horrible. PvP would suffer and PvE wouldn't scale with gear.

    The hotfixes and nerf's in this patch as well as PTR will do little to nothing to fix the major lingering issues with the class. Which sadly, is the typical way it works with Hunters. Blizzard will slowly compensate us as the gear scales till the end of the expansion and then we'll be in the top 10 again. But for now, if you want to blindly judge an entire class on your own personal achievements, go right ahead.

    The rest of us will keep submitting our data, keep giving feedback and keep doing what we must for the class we love to make sure a Pure Dps class that has no other skills can at least not be middle to bottom of the charts. Do we have utility? Yeah, the same as mages/rogues/priests/druids/Dk's ect. Every class does now and most all of those other classes have better utility than we do. Our class is out dated, clunky and falling behind.

    Btw, here's something for you to chew on before you try to fire back and tell me we've not out-dated and we've been revamped. Did you know the original hunter resource design on Alpha testing was FOCUS? Bet you didn't. Keep thinking we're fine if you want, I don't and there is a huge portion of the community that agrees as well.

    /End thread.
    Last edited by Purifico; 2012-11-15 at 12:50 AM.

  9. #29
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    I don't know what to do with you, I literally posted the proof that Stampede has never been, in either beta or live, 175% damage, and you just outright ignore it and claim a faulty tooltip on WoWDB, even when the ability was first put into the beta, was in actuality the real damage.

    I am *not* judging my experiences based on my own experiences. Method uses 3 hunters, Paragon uses 1 in a 10 man, Blood Legion uses 1 as well. You know what these top guilds have in common? They don't post their logs. Most top guilds have private parses. Which means they don't get seen by raidbots either. You would be hard pressed to find one top parse on World of Logs in the top 10. Hell, we keep our logs private during progression too, and we're a nothing guild, it's just for our own competition on the server. In a top guild like those, *everyone* is within 5k of each other except on fights with gimmicks like Garalon. The hunters are right in there. The median for hunters surely has dipped, but like I said before, that's because hunters went from being a low-effort-for-big-results class to a high-effort-for-big-results class.

    Your only valid point is that hunters are a "pure class" and that there should be some consideration that we do more damage. However, Blizz long ago stated they don't want to design for a "hybrid tax" that makes hybrids do less damage because of their utility. This has led to almost a reverse discrimination against pures who lack the same level of utility but can be matched in DPS. Hunters were always in the top 4 DPS classes when the only high DPS classes were the 4 pure classes like hunters, warlocks, mages and rogues.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I don't know what to do with you, I literally posted the proof that Stampede has never been, in either beta or live, 175% damage, and you just outright ignore it and claim a faulty tooltip on WoWDB, even when the ability was first put into the beta, was in actuality the real damage.

    I am *not* judging my experiences based on my own experiences. Method uses 3 hunters, Paragon uses 1 in a 10 man, Blood Legion uses 1 as well. You know what these top guilds have in common? They don't post their logs. Most top guilds have private parses. Which means they don't get seen by raidbots either. You would be hard pressed to find one top parse on World of Logs in the top 10. Hell, we keep our logs private during progression too, and we're a nothing guild, it's just for our own competition on the server. In a top guild like those, *everyone* is within 5k of each other except on fights with gimmicks like Garalon. The hunters are right in there. The median for hunters surely has dipped, but like I said before, that's because hunters went from being a low-effort-for-big-results class to a high-effort-for-big-results class.

    Your only valid point is that hunters are a "pure class" and that there should be some consideration that we do more damage. However, Blizz long ago stated they don't want to design for a "hybrid tax" that makes hybrids do less damage because of their utility. This has led to almost a reverse discrimination against pures who lack the same level of utility but can be matched in DPS. Hunters were always in the top 4 DPS classes when the only high DPS classes were the 4 pure classes like hunters, warlocks, mages and rogues.
    I'm honestly to the point of not really knowing if you're being serious anymore, if you're just that close-minded, if you're ADHD in the fact that you can't even read your OWN previous posts or if this is seriously just a massive joke to you in which you're finding amusement in your own ego.

    The entire point of this thread was NOT to become a pissing contest that you seem so assured of yourself to make it out to be from nothing at all. What sickens me is your down-right ignorance to everything else, yet you continue to brag about yourself and how out of a few samples, that must define a class. That's pathetic on your part. If you've totally run out of responses, good. I'm through trying to reason with a wall about a myriad of topics that don't even relate to the point of this post at all.

    Enjoy your E-peen buddy.

  11. #31
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    enjoy your ignorance and mindless QQing then.

  12. #32
    Purifico <3 you post! Supp you.

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