[BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them

[Shootz]

That 80k damage you're adding on, take passive stagger into the equation. Now in a situation where you would take 200kish damage you're now going to take 280k. That's a huge difference. Add something that's not on the swing timer like unrelenting assault or elegon's breath and you are now dead or at least in some very deep shit. It's just not worth giving that a chance to happen for a negligible amount of extra chi over the course of the entire fight.

[Chuupag]

I think I have said this multiple times, but it is not the chi that is the important part, it's EB. Just forget the chi. You are correct in stating it's not a large amount more. But even if it's the same EB is the golden ring to grab. Haste gives you roughly 33% of the EB that crit would give point for point, and haste and crit compliment each other with it as well.

[The Madgod]

That 80k damage you're adding on, take passive stagger into the equation. Now in a situation where you would take 200kish damage you're now going to take 280k. That's a huge difference. Add something that's not on the swing timer like unrelenting assault or elegon's breath and you are now dead or at least in some very deep shit. It's just not worth giving that a chance to happen for a negligible amount of extra chi over the course of the entire fight.

Actually I did take passive stagger into the equation.

20% of 200,000 damage is 40,000. Assuming at most 2 hits, that's 80,000 damage. I actually did the math the long way as well... the exact same answer.

And as Chuupag has said, with the haste, you also have a higher chance to dodge one of those two hits. So once again, we come to the point where we say "the chances of shit hitting the fan are very low." and you say "No, and it doesn't matter. It's still a chance that I'm not willing to take, nor should anyone."

[Shootz]

Yes but you didn't say 80k more than what. It's important to note that it's 80k more than 200k over two attacks which more importantly is 40% more damage taken than if you had shuffle up.

Elusive brew is great and an extra 7 stacks per minute will be excellent for your overall damage taken but almost meaningless in a clutch situation. If your healers are ooming and you just need to take less damage then sure, forget hit/exp and go haste. Generally they're not though, generally it's those clutch situations that will cause wipes. That's where you need to shine.

[SSHA778]

All that needs to happen in these situations for you to be screwed is a) you have less than 2 chi and b) your first global misses. You can't consistently remove a) without playing 100% perfectly so just remove b) and your guild has no reason to swap you for a tank with more armor and stam than you.

Condition a) only happens if you aren't looking ahead. If you aren't looking ahead, then you've already failed the very first and most logical step to mitigating risk, making how you gear a much lesser concern relatively.

Don't even think about trying to shirk off that responsibility. It's not a matter of your attacks failing to land.

And why is RNG bad? Imagine you are below 30% health. Imagine you are raiding heroic mode progression and the boss can and will kill you in two swings. Imagine you miss 3 times a row just then with a skill that could save your life. You just wiped the raid, pretty much. And if you are below 10% health, even a single miss can do it for you. And if you are seriously raiding heroic progresion, you will be in that situation very often.

Missing 3 times in a row on that ability is seriously pushing it. You're more likely to avoid eight consecutive melee attacks than miss that ability 3 times in a row.

The only reason you view RNG as bad is because you've defaulted your scope to the worst-case scenario. It's like saying mastery is a PoS for DKs because you don't always have Blood Shield up. That doesn't make any sense, now does it?

You determine how to gear from the general case and refine it for the exceptions. You don't look at the exceptions and extrapolate that result to the general case. You end up with moderately-to-horribly stupid gear choices, even though they may be the best choice for the worst-case scenario being modeled. Your conclusion is only as good as the validity of the assumptions from which it stemmed.

If you're at 10% health and not going to avoid the next hit, it doesn't matter how you gear. The only thing that can save you from that is your healers, because your gear certainly won't. You might as well just be naked to avoid the repair bill in that scenario.

Expertise and hit are point for point the most valuable stats for every class, so it does not matter.

They most certainly are not. You should take a look at Blood DK's.

[Chuupag]

Elusive brew is great and an extra 7 stacks per minute will be excellent for your overall damage taken but almost meaningless in a clutch situation. If your healers are ooming and you just need to take less damage then sure, forget hit/exp and go haste. Generally they're not though, generally it's those clutch situations that will cause wipes. That's where you need to shine.

An extra 7 seconds out of 60 seconds...are you really saying that there is no chance that those 7 seconds could have possibly coincided with your clutch situation?

[Shootz]

SSHA778 what you're saying is 'play better.' You may as well tell a tightrope walker that they don't need a net they just need to walk better. I would gladly trade 1 chi and 7 EB stacks for the extra safety, consistency and reassurance that exp/hit gives me. Leaves me free to pay more attention to fight mechanics than whether or not I have enough chi to sit on in the next down period.

[The Madgod]

Yes but you didn't say 80k more than what. It's important to note that it's 80k more than 200k over two attacks which more importantly is 40% more damage taken than if you had shuffle up.

If you would be so kind as to reread the post... I said the base attack was 200,000 damage including armor, so it'd basically be the difference between 60k-80k damage and 100k-120k damage, depending on the amount of mastery you have (0-10%). Argue whether or not that's accurate, but it's all semantics at this point.

Elusive brew is great and an extra 7 stacks per minute will be excellent for your overall damage taken but almost meaningless in a clutch situation. If your healers are ooming and you just need to take less damage then sure, forget hit/exp and go haste. Generally they're not though, generally it's those clutch situations that will cause wipes. That's where you need to shine.

So once again, we come to the point where we say "the chances of shit hitting the fan are very low." and you say "No, and it doesn't matter. It's still a chance that I'm not willing to take, nor should anyone."

I must be psychic :P

At this point, you're making excuses. Once again, you said it yourself:

You can't mathematically calculate the frequency of the situations I describe, there are too many variables.

If this is true for calculating the frequency of the situations you've described, then you can't definitively say that what you are saying is common enough to be a serious issue. You are only bringing anecdotal data to the table and giving us "what if's" that are the absolute worst situation and thenbasing your entire argument off that. "Because I said so" is not reason enough for us to say that what you are saying is accurate.

[Shootz]

An extra 7 seconds out of 60 seconds...are you really saying that there is no chance that those 7 seconds could have possibly coincided with your clutch situation?

I'm saying you can't reliably predict whether or not they will line up and even if they do you can't reliably predict whether that 30% dodge will allow you to avoid attacks until your shuffle comes up. You leave too much to chance. I'd rather a guaranteed 40% damage reduction on those initial attacks than a possible 40% reduction coupled with an extra 30% chance to avoid.

[SSHA778]

SSHA778 what you're saying is 'play better.' You may as well tell a tightrope walker that they don't need a net they just need to walk better. I would gladly trade 1 chi and 7 EB stacks for the extra safety, consistency and reassurance that exp/hit gives me. Leaves me free to pay more attention to fight mechanics than whether or not I have enough chi to sit on in the next down period.

No, you've missed the point of my posts entirely.

I am not saying play better. I am saying play smarter, as cliché as that sounds.

The majority of the deaths and "worst-case" scenarios you have described are player-avoidable. Instead, you're trying to play it off as RNG screwed you over and there was nothing you could do about it except gear differently entirely.

As a strong tank, you are to use all the tools you have on hand to deal with the situations with which you are confronted. If you don't use the absolute strongest tool you have available, you're setting yourself up for a frustrating battle in which you have very little hope of winning because you're viewing the events as unpreventable. If RNG is screwing you over that badly, I really must question just how much of it is RNG.

[Shootz]

Themadgod it's not you I want to convince. My anecdotal evidence may not hold weight with you but what you have to appreciate is that I raid in a world top 100 10 man and my anecdotal evidence is about as good as you're going to get. So when a monk comes here looking for advice on Brewmaster reforging, sees a thread stating you don't need hit and expertise but opens it to find a main tank in my position steadfastly disagreeing with the thread, they'll be a bit better informed and make a decision for themselves on who is more likely to know what they're talking about.

---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 01:08 PM ----------

No, you've missed the point of my posts entirely.

I am not saying play better. I am saying play smarter, as cliché as that sounds.

The majority of the deaths and "worst-case" scenarios you have described are player-avoidable. Instead, you're trying to play it off as RNG screwed you over and there was nothing you could do about it except gear differently entirely.

As a strong tank, you are to use all the tools you have on hand to deal with the situations with which you are confronted. If you don't use the absolute strongest tool you have available, you're setting yourself up for a frustrating battle in which you have very little hope of winning because you're viewing the events as unpreventable. If RNG is screwing you over that badly, I really must question just how much of it is RNG.

But why would I create that possibility for failure when the reward for doing so is so insignificant? Chuupag and I will disagree on the significance of the reward here but in my eyes sacrificing dps as well as the amount of guards you put on other players as well as creating the possibility of taking more unshuffled hits than you could reasonably avoid all for an extra chi and 7 ebs per minute is not a good trade.

Those are the cold hard facts and at the end of the day we'll all see those facts and generate our own opinions on whether or not its worth it.

[The Madgod]

Themadgod it's not you I want to convince. My anecdotal evidence may not hold weight with you but what you have to appreciate is that I raid in a world top 100 10 man and my anecdotal evidence is about as good as you're going to get. So when a monk comes here looking for advice on Brewmaster reforging, sees a thread stating you don't need hit and expertise but opens it to find a main tank in my position steadfastly disagreeing with the thread, they'll be a bit better informed and make a decision for themselves on who is more likely to know what they're talking about.

And for all your argument you only have your word, while we have calculations and probability that we have thought out that you simply say don't work. If someone followed your train of thought, I would be rather sad. Not because your way isn't viable, but because you haven't actually provided any concrete reason other than your word that it is such.

... but in my eyes sacrificing dps as well as the amount of guards you put on other players as well as creating the possibility of taking more unshuffled hits than you could reasonably avoid all for an extra chi and 7 ebs per minute is not a good trade.

Those are the cold hard facts and at the end of the day we'll all see those facts and generate our own opinions on whether or not its worth it.

See that is so much better. That is a simple look at facts and deriving an opinion off of them.

The issue then is if its better for everyone.

[Shootz]

I'm sure you can admit that all the math provided only works in target dummy situations where you're attacking 100% of the time. A situation that is almost never the case. If you can admit that then you can agree that it will all come down to your word against mine since the crux of the matter is not mathematically calculable.

[The Madgod]

I'm sure you can admit that all the math provided only works in target dummy situations where you're attacking 100% of the time. A situation that is almost never the case. If you can admit that then you can agree that it will all come down to your word against mine since the crux of the matter is not mathematically calculable.

I can admit that it's not 100% accurate. However, it's a pretty damn good estimate. Suggesting that just because it's in a controlled environment it has no relevance in the field is basically suggesting that all theorycrafting is useless because it too is made in a controlled environment.

[Shootz]

I see what you're saying I just think that in this particular situation the periods of time when you're not attacking (when shuffle wears off) are just far far far too important to discount which is something that the hypothetical presented in this thread does. So while the numbers might be accurate they only speak to the amount of chi and eb stacks generated without looking at the implications lacking hit and exp might have during specific situations in a fight, if that makes sense.

[The Madgod]

Once again I have to point to the math that Chuupag has done to say that such has already been mathed out to pretty concisely say that the worst case scenario is still very very unlikely to happen.

[Firebert]

Expertise and hit are point for point the most valuable stats for every class, so it does not matter.

Affliction Warlocks say hello. Best DPS at 8% hit, way below the cap.

---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 05:51 AM ----------

That's because your playing with shit dps classes then, seriously- in either case, it's not changing what I wrote Magog, just out of curiosity, is that your main character?

If the DPS you're playing with are doing over five times the DPS you are as a tank, when tanks are currently pushing towards the top of the DPS charts, then that's the tank's problem, not the DPS.

[Shootz]

Yep worst case is very unlikely, bad case is pretty unlikely, not ideal is getting likelier but still kind of unlikely. It all comes down to risk vs reward. I think it's too great a risk for not enough reward, you guys think the reward is worth the risk. I can respect that I just don't agree with it, but I do feel that if you were attempting the same content I am that you would change your minds. No way to prove that, just have to agree to disagree.

[The Madgod]

Yep worst case is very unlikely, bad case is pretty unlikely, not ideal is getting likelier but still kind of unlikely. It all comes down to risk vs reward. I think it's too great a risk for not enough reward, you guys think the reward is worth the risk. I can respect that I just don't agree with it, but I do feel that if you were attempting the same content I am that you would change your minds. No way to prove that, just have to agree to disagree.

Actually I've personally been attempting to keep a good bit of hit and expertise and put more in due to thinking about it, since it's the big question right now and considering the couple wipes I've had at 2-1%, me bumping up my DPS would be a solid benefit to the raid. I'm sitting exactly at hit cap and at about 11% expertise right now. However, I LOVE to debate and I LOVE to play devil's advocate. In terms of my general opinion on the subject, regardless of my personal preference, I think it's up to the player. It's like mastery... it's actually worse if you purely look at mitigation and overall numbers, but it reduces RNG which is pretty nice. It's basically the same thing here, except instead of saying one is better than the other per fight, one is better than the other depending on personal preference, play style, and overall raid performance. If you need to squeeze every ounce of DPS out of your raid for a kill, hit and expertise will benefit you more. If you need to focus on throughput of defensive abilities, haste will do better, if you don't mind a bit of RNG in your resource management. If you're taking spike damage, hit and expertise can potentially help alleviate that (though mastery's a better choice for such). If you're just taking too much damage overall, haste can help (the extra chi used for PB, so as to help mitigate that DoT).

[Shootz]

Ha, so you and I have very similar stats (I reforge exp but don't gem for it and I'm at around 12% I think) and I'm sure we both use the same reasoning and the same knowledge to make the decision we feel is best. Oh well at least we've given some other people a bunch of good stuff to read.