[BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them

[Obamatheone]

I might be a fucking retard and have no clue what a "single-roll" system is, but correct me if I'm wrong. Exp/hit affect the amount of attacks you effectively HIT the target with. If crit % stays the same, more hits will inevitable result in more crits over a 5 minute fight, no?

---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 11:07 AM ----------



In 10-man raids these days Chuupag, survivability and mitigation is not all that matters. A tank should be able to pull out some decent numbers, for progress raids to be able to make enrage timers. I'd definitely like to see logs of a Monk ignoring 7.5 % hit/exp in a top end PvE guild.

Furthermore, it seems like your post is looking at Brewmasters like their only job is to stay alive. This is the real misconception of the post in my honest opinion. Tanks are not like that anymore. I don't know if you realize how much affect hit/exp have on your HPS (through Guards on raid)? Well, I can tell you it's HUGE! And at the end of the day, tank deaths are definitely not the most common reason for wipes these days. So, to narrow it down, you have two options:

1. More survivability for you personally, but low DPS and HPS.
2. Lower survivability for you personally, but much higher DPS and HPS.

It might just be me, but in 10-man raiding, I'd go for option 2. It might be different in 25m.

And please remember we're talking soft cap here - not hard cap. I am definitely convinced, after much testing, that Haste > Exp, past 7.5 %, though I will be trying to get the exp hard cap at higher ilvls, so I can push my DPS/HPS even more.

Looking forward to your reply.

/Zumzar

Aid +Raid Awareness as well to #2.
Then you have a clear winner, and the fact that just about every monk tank out there worth two shits does this....well yah.

PS: A double roll system is when the game rolls a die to see if you hit the boss, and then roll another die to see if that attack crits. A single roll system essentially has a die with all the possible outcomes and whatever the die decides happens. There are no other factors.

http://www.icy-veins.com/mechanics-of-melee-attacks-wow
That is the best I have seen it explained.

[SurrealNight]

Just throwing out some of my personal experiences regarding missed abilities and taunts:
On stone guards I've seen things go wrong since you usually want to hold your taunt for swaps... pulling the 2 dogs if not hit/exp capped (soft capped), your keg smash misses and its basically a wipe...

Same if you pull Elegon first then you have to take the first protector... if DPS pulls threat due to missed kegsmash and you have to taunt Elegon, then other tank needs to pick up add and you'll be dealing with very high stack counts.

The odds of the first KS missing you are at least forced on the soft caps are pretty slim, don't think I've had it happen and I always pull the 2 dogs. I do tab between each atk to make sure I've got solid agro on both and have a rogue tricksing me so that helps.

On Elegon I actually start outside of the ring and let the warrior pull, jade lightning until 1 sec before protector then roll in and pick up the boss. Usually have 2-4 Chi from lightning so don't really care if the first KS hits or not. Me being at lower stacks helps with the stress on the healers.

[SSHA778]

Then you have a clear winner, and the fact that just about every monk tank out there worth two shits does this....well yah.

What "every monk tank out there" does doesn't make it right. It makes it popular.

DK tanks loaded up on stamina for DS. That doesn't make stamina good, and, in fact, they didn't even need any additional stamina than from what came on gear.

Also, what's this deal with 0 hit/expertise = 22.5% miss? Isn't it more like 7.5 miss + 7.5 dodge + 15 parry = 30%?

Expertise negates dodge and then parry, not both simultaneously. The boss has a 7.5% chance to parry (3% + 1.5% * (93 - 90) = 7.5%)

[Totaltotemic]

Might be a silly question but:

What exactly is the difference between going for hit cap vs going for expertise hard cap (over soft cap)?

First 2550 expertise rating gives you: -7.5 dodge, -7.5 parry.
First 2550 hit rating gives you: -7.5 miss
Second 2550 expertise rating gives you: -7.5 parry.

What's the deal with going for hit/expertise soft cap? Healthy medium? Or it might be simpler to have expertise at 10% and hit at 5%?

I mean, logically, if you're going for hit cap, that means you're valuing 7.5% additional chance to hit higher than 2550 of some other rating like crit/haste, then wouldn't it be completely illogical to not do the same thing for expertise hard cap?

Also, what's this deal with 0 hit/expertise = 22.5% miss? Isn't it more like 7.5 miss + 7.5 dodge + 15 parry = 30%?

First, the base chance to parry a boss is 7.5%. Expertise reduces chance to dodge, then when it hits 0%, it starts reducing chance to parry. This ensures that every point of expertise is just as valuable as the point before it.

Secondly, the difference is acceptable risk of probability biting you in the ass. Chuupag is arguing that, based strictly on probability, a less than 1% chance of shit hitting the fan is worth the gain in a few extra Chi over the fight. People that go for the hard caps argue that even a 0.1% chance will happen over the course of attempting a boss 50 times, and wasting your guild's time on wipes that you could have insured against is terrible play. People going for expertise softcap (which is not inherently better or worse per point than 1% over or 1% under) are striving for a happy medium where they might screw up their rotation once every 30 pulls instead of every 20, but think that chance is still worth the extra EB uptime and Chi for Purifies and Chi Waves.

The edge that capping has is that it is the highest DPS option, which provides more raid Guards, easing the healing and DPS requirements of each fight and removing variance in tank damage via more consistent Purifies and Chi waves and Shuffle uptime. Going for haste instead results in less DPS, less raid Guards, but slightly more (albeit less consistent) Purifying Brews, Chi Waves, and a considerable increase in EB uptime. The question then becomes: is having less DPS and less raid protection worth the extra Purify every minute or so, even if it doesn't necessarily come when you want it to? To boil it down further, is your progression being held back by a lack of DPS or heals, or healers running out of mana specifically because the tank is taking too much damage over the course of a fight?

[Discostu]

The odds of the first KS missing you are at least forced on the soft caps are pretty slim, don't think I've had it happen and I always pull the 2 dogs. I do tab between each atk to make sure I've got solid agro on both and have a rogue tricksing me so that helps.

On Elegon I actually start outside of the ring and let the warrior pull, jade lightning until 1 sec before protector then roll in and pick up the boss. Usually have 2-4 Chi from lightning so don't really care if the first KS hits or not. Me being at lower stacks helps with the stress on the healers.

I've had it happen a couple weeks ago when I was experimenting with lower hit /exp, and it was also the same week we lost our Hunter in the Raid team so no MD and no Rogue for tricks.

On Elegon we do it with me pulling, the Pally tank standing outside and taunting off mr when the protector spawns. i taunt it, kegs mash and transcendence or roll out near ranged dps to clear my stacks.

I was commenting mainly to make the point that the deciding factor is not always what the Monk tank needs/wants, Its easier for me to go outside and reforge, than to ask the raid team to change its strategy.

My opinion is that as long as you know what you're giving up to get that extra haste or that extra expertise, or whatever... it largely depends on the situation, strategy and personal preference. I know that there is a mathematically "best" solution.. but in practice it usually pans out a bit different.

[SurrealNight]

-Snip-

I think that summarizes it pretty up pretty well and basically says there is no 'right' answer. I've gotten a good chunk of gear so might play with the hard cap a little and see if it feels any different, but I'm pretty happy being at the forced soft caps.

I already do crazy DPS as a tank and sure it gives us an advantage over guilds running double plate tanks or something, so if we still wiping to an enrage or something I'm pretty happy to lay the blame on the DPS crew. Pulled 40k more than our warrior on Elegon and 21k more on Will so rather focus more on what adds more to my survive-ability. Right now I'd like to see more EB stacks and of course more Chi is always good.

[Yoshimiko]

Just throwing out some of my personal experiences regarding missed abilities and taunts:
On stone guards I've seen things go wrong since you usually want to hold your taunt for swaps... pulling the 2 dogs if not hit/exp capped (soft capped), your keg smash misses and its basically a wipe...

Same if you pull Elegon first then you have to take the first protector... if DPS pulls threat due to missed kegsmash and you have to taunt Elegon, then other tank needs to pick up add and you'll be dealing with very high stack counts.

I think this is a VERY Strong point. As a class with only 1 taunt, I feel that missing my first Keg Smash can kill my rogue, multi dotting spriest and afflic lock, and destroy my warrior. It's already hard enough to hold threat on 2 different targets, but couple that with a horrendous hit rate, and you're in for an awful time.

Of course this could be countered by putting you on the second dog, but I'm personally my guilds main tank - and this risk is just far too much. Another option is to completely change the strat(from the one I use) to swapping the enraged dog back n forth, but I don't like that because of positioning.

[SurrealNight]

Of course this could be countered by putting you on the second dog, but I'm personally my guilds main tank - and this risk is just far too much. Another option is to completely change the strat(from the one I use) to swapping the enraged dog back n forth, but I don't like that because of positioning.

Could always drop your statue next to them and use it for an AoE taunt on both dogs (3rd should be far enough away to miss it). I just let DPS know that I will be targeting the dog that's petrifying and they need to switch targets as needed if they don't want to risk pulling agro.

[Chuupag]

I'm confused as to why you keep doing this. If you're trying to categorically prove that replacing hit/expertise with an equivalent amount of haste is the way to go, why does it matter what the probability of any one specific event at an arbitrary hit chance is? What you should be talking about is how many MORE Chi Waves and Purifying Brews (the only two defensive Chi abilities not constrained by long cooldowns) you should be able to do throughout a fight as opposed to the total loss of Chi and effectiveness of Chi Waves compared to the gains from haste, since a discussion on different probabilities is essentially worthless without comparing it to something.

This is all of course assuming that you're still totally and completely ignoring the 5 second window in favor of judging effectiveness over an entire fight.

I was merely trying to show the math of a missed Chi Wave because it had been brought up at a possibility of dropping the caps.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 06:38 PM ----------

Hah never even thought to try and cast Chi Wave on myself thought it had to start on an enemy =/ What other tricks are you keeping from me!

Oh I'm full of surprises...can't dish them all our at once though. Gotta save some gems to keep people paying attention.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 06:51 PM ----------

First, the base chance to parry a boss is 7.5%. Expertise reduces chance to dodge, then when it hits 0%, it starts reducing chance to parry. This ensures that every point of expertise is just as valuable as the point before it.

Secondly, the difference is acceptable risk of probability biting you in the ass. Chuupag is arguing that, based strictly on probability, a less than 1% chance of shit hitting the fan is worth the gain in a few extra Chi over the fight. People that go for the hard caps argue that even a 0.1% chance will happen over the course of attempting a boss 50 times, and wasting your guild's time on wipes that you could have insured against is terrible play. People going for expertise softcap (which is not inherently better or worse per point than 1% over or 1% under) are striving for a happy medium where they might screw up their rotation once every 30 pulls instead of every 20, but think that chance is still worth the extra EB uptime and Chi for Purifies and Chi Waves.

The edge that capping has is that it is the highest DPS option, which provides more raid Guards, easing the healing and DPS requirements of each fight and removing variance in tank damage via more consistent Purifies and Chi waves and Shuffle uptime. Going for haste instead results in less DPS, less raid Guards, but slightly more (albeit less consistent) Purifying Brews, Chi Waves, and a considerable increase in EB uptime. The question then becomes: is having less DPS and less raid protection worth the extra Purify every minute or so, even if it doesn't necessarily come when you want it to? To boil it down further, is your progression being held back by a lack of DPS or heals, or healers running out of mana specifically because the tank is taking too much damage over the course of a fight?

Let's not get into more hyperbole. I've looked at the gear, and roughly 4/4 is about as low as you can reasonably go. As Mad has said the chances are you won't have that 'oh shit' moment at all for over 80% of your attempts, and the remaining 20% you have things to hit.

I think a larger point in favor of haste/crit is not necessarily chi, but EB uptime. The fact that 340 points from 1% hit/exp gives the equivalent of .15% dodge over a 6 min fight through haste is striking. And that goes hand in hand with crit, giving you the equiv of .43% dodge over the same points and time frame.

I think your last few statements hit the nail on the head. If your raid is lacking in the dps department hit/exp could help your raid. Same with healers going oom. But I think those situations will disappear once your dps and healers gear up and/or get more used to the fights, which is where you could switch out of some of those stats and over to more haste/crit.

[Anorax]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...imonk/advanced
Best tank in the world basically
Confirms my own suspicions that people are really undervalueing mastery

[Totaltotemic]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...imonk/advanced
Best tank in the world basically
Confirms my own suspicions that people are really undervalueing mastery

I really hate this argument every time it comes up. He's stacking mastery because he's tanking bosses like heroic Empress and heroic Will that will wreck you if you're undergeared, so reducing damage to a point where you get 3 shot instead of 2 shot is the single most important thing. That pretty much goes away iwht an extra 5 or 10 ilvls worth of stamina that he doesn't have. It's a very fringe case geared for very specific fights and is by no means the norm.

[Deleted]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...imonk/advanced
Best tank in the world basically
Confirms my own suspicions that people are really undervalueing mastery

If only you actually checked that toon when they were actually progressing on fights... so really your wrong.

At the time he was using his monk to tank Heroic Gara'jal because (like myself) you should go completly into Mastery and try to get it as high as possible because everyone will take a lot less damage from vodoo dolls resulting in less wipes. Its not needed now that most people out gear the fight but back when people were progressing it really helped.

Hence why he has a lot more heroic Gara'jal kills and why when they were progressing through Mogushan vaults the only boss it had killed on heroic was Gara'jal because thats all he used it for.

[Makova]

Hey guys,

I think that there are a few different ways to gear as a Brewmaster as people have been saying. I'm at the Hit and Expertise caps (Hard cap Expertise) and have a decent haste rating I think (12.6 energy per second using flasks). I'm finding that the certainty I have from having those caps is a great benefit to me and my raid, as I can count on Keg Smash hitting (Unless Blade Lord Tayak uses Wind Step right before I hit it ) and knowing that I have the Chi for BoK and PB. I have tried going to the Soft Cap for Expertise, but I haven't had much time to test it.

I am definitely interested in what everyone thinks about the gearing.

Cheers,

Makova.

[cyqu]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...imonk/advanced
Best tank in the world basically
Confirms my own suspicions that people are really undervalueing mastery

If only you actually checked that toon when they were actually progressing on fights... so really your wrong.

At the time he was using his monk to tank Heroic Gara'jal because (like myself) you should go completly into Mastery and try to get it as high as possible because everyone will take a lot less damage from vodoo dolls resulting in less wipes. Its not needed now that most people out gear the fight but back when people were progressing it really helped.

Hence why he has a lot more heroic Gara'jal kills and why when they were progressing through Mogushan vaults the only boss it had killed on heroic was Gara'jal because thats all he used it for.

how embarrassing this must be for you anorax, not knowing anything on your own. just simply linking riggs alt and using it as your only evidence that mastery might be good, yet having no idea really why and when you best use it. like nurhlag said he has been like that since heroic garajal when that would be the best set up.

[The Madgod]

I really hate this argument every time it comes up. He's stacking mastery because he's tanking bosses like heroic Empress and heroic Will that will wreck you if you're undergeared, so reducing damage to a point where you get 3 shot instead of 2 shot is the single most important thing. That pretty much goes away iwht an extra 5 or 10 ilvls worth of stamina that he doesn't have. It's a very fringe case geared for very specific fights and is by no means the norm.

Absolutely this. If you understand the pretty simple concept that tanks gear different ways for different situations, then you'll understand why the bleeding edge tanks go with much more effective health than is necessary for the majority of us. This is especially true with monks, whose stats help dictate our play style to a degree much higher than other tanks. EH is only important up till a certain point, whereupon it becomes much less necessary. These bleeding edge tanks don't have the luxury of waiting to get gear like the majority of us, so they focus essentially EXCLUSIVELY on EH stats (in our case, mastery), so that they can make up for their gear. We have time to get our gear, so EH stats are not as important to our survival and we can focus on mitigational stats like haste and crit.

[Obamatheone]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...imonk/advanced
Best tank in the world basically
Confirms my own suspicions that people are really undervalueing mastery

What they said, but also why would you assume this guy is the best?

Just because he has the most Heroic Kills? That seems like a poor representation of his skill/ability, and a far better representation of the other 9/24 people.

Also, the difference between progression raiding guilds really just boils down to time investment. People can harp on about leet skills all they want, but I know better. You look at any world class guild, and these people play constantly during progression. We are talking 12 hours raiding a day 7 days a week. Which means they are doing absolutely nothing but sleeping, eating, and playing/reading about wow. Practice + Gear is the difference...the skill cap in this game is not all that high.

[Yoshimiko]

Absolutely this. If you understand the pretty simple concept that tanks gear different ways for different situations, then you'll understand why the bleeding edge tanks go with much more effective health than is necessary for the majority of us. This is especially true with monks, whose stats help dictate our play style to a degree much higher than other tanks. EH is only important up till a certain point, whereupon it becomes much less necessary. These bleeding edge tanks don't have the luxury of waiting to get gear like the majority of us, so they focus essentially EXCLUSIVELY on EH stats (in our case, mastery), so that they can make up for their gear. We have time to get our gear, so EH stats are not as important to our survival and we can focus on mitigational stats like haste and crit.

This is why I've said this before. Mastery and Stamina stacking has its place. Always ALWAYS setup for whatevers best for your raid, NOT what's best for you personally. I'm built damage because I'm meeting enrage timers, but if we were progressing heroics - Specifically heroic will/Gara'jai, I'd go Mastery/Stam.

[Reibo]

As an experienced Tank, I get the soft cap on Hit and Expertise for 1 reason, I hate missing my attacks, especially in a Heroic mode boss pull. Everyone is pre-potting and ready to go balls walls on this boss...I pull...3 misses in a row, I HATE that, especially because it causes me to generate no threat while people are going nuts and it causes problems on the pull. My best solution to that problem is to get enough expertise and hit so you are not missing like crazy, then reforge the rest to midigation. For tanks in general, not just Monks, I believe it is essential to not miss attacks, especially ones that cause important midigation procs.

[Chuupag]

As an experienced Tank, I get the soft cap on Hit and Expertise for 1 reason, I hate missing my attacks, especially in a Heroic mode boss pull. Everyone is pre-potting and ready to go balls walls on this boss...I pull...3 misses in a row, I HATE that, especially because it causes me to generate no threat while people are going nuts and it causes problems on the pull. My best solution to that problem is to get enough expertise and hit so you are not missing like crazy, then reforge the rest to midigation. For tanks in general, not just Monks, I believe it is essential to not miss attacks, especially ones that cause important midigation procs.

Can we stop with the anecdotes please? Everyone remembers the time when 20 things went wrong and you wiped, but nobody seems to recall the 200 times things went fine. If you want to take them for dps that's fine, just stop harking on and on and on about the consecutive misses crap.

[SurrealNight]

Everyone is pre-potting and ready to go balls walls on this boss...I pull...3 misses in a row, I HATE that, especially because it causes me to generate no threat while people are going nuts and it causes problems on the pull.

You know the odds of missing three yellow attacks in a row are like 0.04%? If that is happening a lot too you then RNG reaaaaally hates you. It's at least not the reason to decide if you want the hard cap or not exclusively.