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  1. #141
    I don't totally agree. I am 7.5% soft caps, rest haste. Look me up.

    Imperial Vizier 10H 10min fight:

    Keg Smash - 3 Parries
    Melee - 9
    Blackout Kick - 4
    Jab - 3
    Tiger Palm - 8

    Out of a 10 min fight? Not too shabby. When our log becomes non-private you can see for yourself. Still a progression race for US 10 mans.

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  2. #142
    Deleted
    So to get this right, you trade an approximate 20% chance to miss for an extra 10-12% haste (energy generation)?

    Statistically this MAY get you a small short time advantage, but it WILL give you a worse long term performance, no math needed for that. Also i am pretty sure we all had the situation:

    Low energy, no chi. Big hit comes in, stagger goes to red immediately. Energy goes just back up to 40 - I don't think a high miss chance is a real option here. Don't you agree? I want to purify that red stagger NOW not 1-2 GCD delayed cause stupid stuff won't hit! 1 GCD = 1 tick from that stagger, i would rather not eat that unnecessary damage.

    What exactly does that meager 10% extra haste get you? 10% more energy that you might spend 80% successfully.

    What you also did not calculate in: What happens in the rare circumstance when you get up to high energy (80 or more) and miss your stuff? That haste is now worthless cause it regenerates into an already full pool.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Collo87 View Post
    So to get this right, you trade an approximate 20% chance to miss for an extra 10-12% haste (energy generation)?
    Sigh, you get energy and Chi refunded if you miss. This of course means that 1% hit does not equate to 1% resources lost, more like 0.2%.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2012-11-15 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #144
    I'd rather still capped, if not for mitigation, then at least for dps, because those keg smashes do tons of damage. Besides, hit/exp affects GotO as well, which you didn't account for in your post.
    Btw, I'm completely reforged for hit/exp hardcap/crit (I like EB), and I have no problem keeping 100% shuffle uptime while still having chi for PB and an occasional Chi Wave. On bosses with tons of vengeance I'd actually prefer chi wave over perfect shuffle as it generates huge healing, but looking back it seems that stone guard was the only boss where it really worked.

  5. #145
    Dreadlord Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shootz View Post
    This is rather foolish. Perhaps this napkin math may apply if you're fighting a target dummy or Gara'jal but it's not realistic in any other situation. I won't fault you for it because your experience is confined solely to LFR but I must say that simply because reforging won't matter for most of the playerbase doesn't mean we need 7 page threads of misinformation.
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    Quick notes:

    1. Experience doesn't say whether someone is right or not. It merely serves to support the argument, not the backbone of your argument. Numbers are absolutely just as valid as experience. There are players who don't even raid that know far more about the class than you do. There are players who are doing world firsts that know less about the class than you do.

    Clearing content =/= Knowledge of the class
    Knowledge of the class =/= Skill (skill is execution)
    Skill =/= Clearing content
    Can we stop this argument. There have been top end BrM backing this data in this very thread. This is not my 'OMG I FOUND SUM MATHS I R SO SMART.'

    Quote Originally Posted by d07RiV View Post
    I'd rather still capped, if not for mitigation, then at least for dps, because those keg smashes do tons of damage. Besides, hit/exp affects GotO as well, which you didn't account for in your post.
    Btw, I'm completely reforged for hit/exp hardcap/crit (I like EB), and I have no problem keeping 100% shuffle uptime while still having chi for PB and an occasional Chi Wave. On bosses with tons of vengeance I'd actually prefer chi wave over perfect shuffle as it generates huge healing, but looking back it seems that stone guard was the only boss where it really worked.
    Unless you are able to grab every single orb for 0 overhealing GoTO doesn't play much into the discussion.




    Also if you're not going to go through the whole post and read all the discussion why jump in at the end and make yourself look stupid by bringing up stuff that was already discussed to death 4 pages ago. B/c most of the nontrolls who were disagreeing have come around and said that the math is sound but aren't sure if they would reforge themselves b/c of the short term vs long term outlook, whereas others are fine with the improved long term and if something statistically unlikely happens in the short term are just prepared to deal with it with the tools we have available.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 06:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Collo87 View Post
    Also i am pretty sure we all had the situation:

    Low energy, no chi. Big hit comes in, stagger goes to red immediately. Energy goes just back up to 40 - I don't think a high miss chance is a real option here. Don't you agree? I want to purify that red stagger NOW not 1-2 GCD delayed cause stupid stuff won't hit! 1 GCD = 1 tick from that stagger, i would rather not eat that unnecessary damage.

    What exactly does that meager 10% extra haste get you? 10% more energy that you might spend 80% successfully.

    What you also did not calculate in: What happens in the rare circumstance when you get up to high energy (80 or more) and miss your stuff? That haste is now worthless cause it regenerates into an already full pool.
    Yes we have all had that situation...once in a blue moon. That's why it's called a rare circumstance.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 08:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Collo87 View Post
    So to get this right, you trade an approximate 20% chance to miss for an extra 10-12% haste (energy generation)?
    I'd like to go back to this point for a moment. Let's just throw the notion of a soft cap out the window for the moment, it's not a very useful topic in this discussion. All it is is the point where exp switches from reducing dodge to reducing parry. It has no special significance in terms of stat weights. Every point of hit or exp has the exact same weight with regards to preventing something from not-landing. I think the math is pretty clear that the only thing that hit and exp give you is a bit of reliability, dps, and some raid utility, while doing very little to increase your own survivability...which is priority #1 for tanking. I think the more important discussion at this point is an internal one where you think through "do I really want to spend those points just to completely negate a small chance(>1%) of something going wrong...even if that something may not happen at all, or may not happen in such a way as to cause a wipe." As I have said convenience is a legitimate argument, but don't try to dress it up as you get better survivability out of hit/exp than haste/crit, b/c the math, and testimonials from other BrM, says that is just not accurate.

    As has been said at least a dozen times, you cannot actually get to 0/0, so let's stop talking about it. Mad said he runs with roughly 4/4 which is about as low as you can get. So the chance to not-land an attack is at worst 14.5%, or a little under 5k stat points.

    With those 5k stat points you could get 11.7% haste, 8.3% crit, or any combination thereof. I actually think, and some math from a different thread has stated this as well, that once you get a comfortable amount of haste...crit becomes the better choice due to the increase in EB uptime and the dps increase.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-15 at 01:09 PM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I'd love a link to your personal parses that show that we're always a solid 10% higher than other specs, because taking a much better look at this, we're superior on cleave fights, to such a degree that it messes with the overall data. Otherwise, we're relatively low. We're good, as far as tanks are concerned, but we're not better than the majority of DPS specs.

    Gearing for DPS as a tank is fine... once you've gotten to the point where you can comfortably survive an encounter. If that's what you're suggesting, then we're in agreement... but gearing for DPS OVER mitigation? Not in my book.
    Depends on the Scenario, Depends on the fight. We're still seeing the occasional 1% enrage. The difference in survival is fairly minor (1.13 chi/minute or something for a massive difference in dps) while the gain to dps is MASSIVE. Comparing this week(testing reforging into haste across the board over hit/expertise, haste>crit) I pulled 38k on Feng. Last week I pulled 62kish dps. That's not even a competition. I did the exact same things, I was the one with the channel spell steal. We didn't have a single epicenter( Istunned them all) as usual. No changes, except a 15% effective hit chance loss.

    I really can't see how this is worth it, unless you're nowhere NEAR enrage timers. I honestly didn't even notice a gain in chi - it just wasn't that noticeable. I did notice having trouble landing 3 tiger fists between each guard though due to the sheer AMOUNT of misses. I don't care if it gives you a 5% higher survival rate, the losses are just too large.
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  7. #147
    "Can we stop this argument. There have been top end BrM backing this data in this very thread. This is not my 'OMG I FOUND SUM MATHS I R SO SMART.'"

    Lol.

  8. #148
    Dreadlord Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    Depends on the Scenario, Depends on the fight. We're still seeing the occasional 1% enrage. The difference in survival is fairly minor (1.13 chi/minute or something for a massive difference in dps) while the gain to dps is MASSIVE. Comparing this week(testing reforging into haste across the board over hit/expertise, haste>crit) I pulled 38k on Feng. Last week I pulled 62kish dps. That's not even a competition. I did the exact same things, I was the one with the channel spell steal. We didn't have a single epicenter( Istunned them all) as usual. No changes, except a 15% effective hit chance loss.

    I really can't see how this is worth it, unless you're nowhere NEAR enrage timers. I honestly didn't even notice a gain in chi - it just wasn't that noticeable. I did notice having trouble landing 3 tiger fists between each guard though due to the sheer AMOUNT of misses. I don't care if it gives you a 5% higher survival rate, the losses are just too large.
    Your numbers don't even make sense. There is no way that a 15% reduction in a stat that increases your dps by less than 1% can reduce you dps by almost 40%. Not even mentioning the fact that the subsequent increase in haste and crit would offset some of that 15%.

    And I also find it suspect that you would have trouble landing 3 tiger palms within 30 seconds between guards when you have about 10-15 TPs in that frame.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-15 at 02:43 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    Depends on the Scenario, Depends on the fight. We're still seeing the occasional 1% enrage. The difference in survival is fairly minor (1.13 chi/minute or something for a massive difference in dps) while the gain to dps is MASSIVE. Comparing this week(testing reforging into haste across the board over hit/expertise, haste>crit) I pulled 38k on Feng. Last week I pulled 62kish dps. That's not even a competition. I did the exact same things, I was the one with the channel spell steal. We didn't have a single epicenter( Istunned them all) as usual. No changes, except a 15% effective hit chance loss.

    I really can't see how this is worth it, unless you're nowhere NEAR enrage timers. I honestly didn't even notice a gain in chi - it just wasn't that noticeable. I did notice having trouble landing 3 tiger fists between each guard though due to the sheer AMOUNT of misses. I don't care if it gives you a 5% higher survival rate, the losses are just too large.
    Post your before and after logs. Be honest with the reforging because I bet the gap is not as big as you make it out to be. If you are talking about reforging everything away from soft caps of hit/expertise and had like 100 rating, then I might be inclined to believe it made a difference, just not that big of a difference to miss 3 Tiger Palms in a row. 62k on Feng with Shroud of Reversal? That is horrible. I pull 85k+ without even trying because that boss just dies so easily. 62k on Feng is 13k off the 200th parse.

    I realize everyone's intentions in here, math experts, etc etc etc. But we really need to have people with serious end game progression experience at a high level post their findings with actual test data supported by logs to fully come up with a clear set strategy. What may work fine in LFR may be completely horrible in 10/25H raids.

    For my viewpoints, this is coming from a BrM tank in a top US 10 man guild.
    Last edited by gynshon; 2012-11-15 at 03:30 PM.

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  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Sigh, you get energy and Chi refunded if you miss. This of course means that 1% hit does not equate to 1% resources lost, more like 0.2%.
    1) You actually do lose a small amount of energy on a miss. Most of it is refunded, but there is still an energy loss.

    2) Chi is never refunded. A nonissue because shuffle works on misses.

    3) Even if you never lost energy, a missed Keg Smash is lost chi.

    You get -most- of the energy refunded, and zero chi, and zero time. You're not losing nothing by missing.

    Also, if they're bringing you in for your raid utility, misses and dodges and parries are a direct nerf to raid utility, so that's something to consider.

  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    I remember the school of thought that Death Knight tanks didn't need Hit or Expertise back before they had to change the game due to the misinformation resulting in Death Knights being ... dead... because their attacks missed like hell. I suppose Monks will eventually get changed to support the "I don't need to be able to hit them to Tank them" philosophy.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  12. #152
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    I'm going to try out expertise hard capping for the weekend. Will be anecdotal but come back with any difference I notice over the weekend raiding.

    Edit: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/a...8-69171c58036b
    That is as close as I can get while being at the soft/hard caps. The -2.30% haste looks kind of scary but Imma try it out for the heck of it. Our raid would benefit from extra DPS at least.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-11-15 at 05:44 PM.
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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I'm going to try out expertise hard capping for the weekend. Will be anecdotal but come back with any difference I notice over the weekend raiding.

    Edit: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/a...8-69171c58036b
    That is as close as I can get while being at the soft/hard caps. The -2.30% haste looks kind of scary but Imma try it out for the heck of it. Our raid would benefit from extra DPS at least.
    I am going to go out on a limb preemptively here and say your DPS will suffer by doing that. Maybe not since it has been forever since I got to use 1handers because, oh I don't know, we haven't seen any drop ever. My 2hander has been the only one as well. Totally sucks.

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  14. #154
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    I thought most were saying that the exp hard cap was a net DPS increase, or is it because of the DW? I have Spirit Kings polearm so can easily switch to 2H (I felt that DW DPS has been higher).
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  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    I remember the school of thought that Death Knight tanks didn't need Hit or Expertise back before they had to change the game due to the misinformation resulting in Death Knights being ... dead... because their attacks missed like hell. I suppose Monks will eventually get changed to support the "I don't need to be able to hit them to Tank them" philosophy.
    You remembered incorrectly.

    They changed threat and DKs because at the time no tank wanted hit or expertise in order to mitigate damage, and while they liked the DK model for using hit and expertise as mitigation stats, they didn't want to change three tanks that drasticly mid-expansion (This was during Firelands, btw.) But they also mentioned at the time that they wanted to change all the tanks in the future so that hit/expertise is a meaningful choice.

    So... no... you're not going to see monks changed to a 'don't have to hit to tank' model--if anything you're going to see DKs pulled further towards hit/expertise as they don't need it now. All five tanks get something out of hit/expertise, by design. Don't hold your breath for this one.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Can we stop this argument. There have been top end BrM backing this data in this very thread. This is not my 'OMG I FOUND SUM MATHS
    Who? Where? I'm saying that this doesn't hold up because you're not sitting on a dummy wailing away for 6min every fight. More often than not you will have periods of moving out of range of mobs, being incapacitated for periods of time, scenario after scenario where your shuffle falls off or dwindles low. Your haste is irrelevant here but you cannot afford to have several moments per encounter where you're missing too many attacks in a row for consistent shuffle uptime.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntler View Post
    1) You actually do lose a small amount of energy on a miss. Most of it is refunded, but there is still an energy loss.

    2) Chi is never refunded. A nonissue because shuffle works on misses.

    3) Even if you never lost energy, a missed Keg Smash is lost chi.

    You get -most- of the energy refunded, and zero chi, and zero time. You're not losing nothing by missing.

    Also, if they're bringing you in for your raid utility, misses and dodges and parries are a direct nerf to raid utility, so that's something to consider.
    Yes, you lose 20% energy, and all Chi is refunded when you miss. One of the benefits of playing Windwalker sometimes is that you get to see exactly when your RSK misses, but you're still sitting on that Chi.

    My point was that 1% haste = 1% extra resources, but 1% miss does NOT equal 1% loss of resources like was claimed, so you can't just "logic" out the argument that 20% hit > 12% haste in terms of resources, it doesn't work that way.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Yes, you lose 20% energy, and all Chi is refunded when you miss. One of the benefits of playing Windwalker sometimes is that you get to see exactly when your RSK misses, but you're still sitting on that Chi..
    Wrong ability.
    Wrong stance.
    Wrong spec.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntler View Post
    Wrong ability.
    Wrong stance.
    Wrong spec.
    Are you suggesting that the energy and Chi refund mechanics are specific to Brewmasters in Ox Stance?

  20. #160
    Alright, another two points.
    First, being able to hit the boss when you need to is important for other things as well - e.g. if you taunt the boss, throw a keg smash, it gets parried, the other tank gets aggro back. Sure, you can tell him to stop attacking, but that could be a significant loss of damage.
    Second, you hardly need any haste to have 100% shuffle, so any additional haste affects things like PB or chi wave usage, which are of less importance (you really don't need to PB after every attack).

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