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  1. #241
    Absolutely, though a bit heated :P

    The issue I wanted to dispel was the blanket statement that one was better than the other, regardless of which side you're on. Stats for brewmasters are so finnickey... their efficiency differs due to so many variables that it's hard to definitively say what one should go for without getting a background check on not only the brewmaster's damage intake and ability usage, but their raiding group's progress and quirks as well as the fights the brewmaster typically does (assuming that he or she doesn't do them all and is rotated around within a relatively large tanking core).

  2. #242
    Well obviously I feel that my way is better, I just can't objectively prove it :P

  3. #243
    Hence the issue with debating blanket statements in the first place. It's too much of a personal call.

  4. #244
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    If the DPS you're playing with are doing over five times the DPS you are as a tank, when tanks are currently pushing towards the top of the DPS charts, then that's the tank's problem, not the DPS.
    1st step in replying is reading the post your replying to, you don't read a books cover if your due to give a presentation of it either...

  5. #245
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    1st step in replying is reading the post your replying to, you don't read a books cover if your due to give a presentation of it either...
    You were implying that threat is now a problem for some tanks with your response to Chuupag:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I don't think threat has been an issue since wrath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    That's because your playing with shit dps classes then, seriously
    And I responded with my post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    If the DPS you're playing with are doing over five times the DPS you are as a tank, when tanks are currently pushing towards the top of the DPS charts, then that's the tank's problem, not the DPS.
    I read the post I replied to. If you mean the OP, then I already said in the thread earlier that Hit-capping and Expertise-capping isn't optimal in some cases (Affliction Warlocks) and personal in others (Assassination Rogues, and clearly this case).
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  6. #246
    I have to say.. god damn this was a fine read, many good points to take into consideration. Even though from everything it shows that dropping hit/exp for haste is more beneficial to your overall survivability, i am still going to stick with 7.5 hit/exp (fuck the hardcap).

    Thanks mad and chuu, maybe i will change my mind about it at some point when my survivability comes into question for my raid. (just running an alts group)

    One thing i am still not 100% sure on, as i keep reading mixed results or flat out claims of "2h > DW" If at some point you ever decide to start a thread to discuss it, please PM me.

  7. #247
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alucardtnuoc View Post
    I have to say.. god damn this was a fine read, many good points to take into consideration. Even though from everything it shows that dropping hit/exp for haste is more beneficial to your overall survivability, i am still going to stick with 7.5 hit/exp (fuck the hardcap).
    I tried the hard cap all weekend and ended up hating it already reforged back to the soft caps. The DPS boost is kind of nice (ranked 102 first boss) but the reduction in energy/chi generation was very noticeable resulting in higher uptime on Yellow+ stagger and I couldn't use Chi Wave as much as I would have liked in certain points of fights.

    If I could keep my current level of haste and reach the hard cap I would but until gear allows that I'm sticking to the soft caps.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I tried the hard cap all weekend and ended up hating it already reforged back to the soft caps. The DPS boost is kind of nice (ranked 102 first boss) but the reduction in energy/chi generation was very noticeable resulting in higher uptime on Yellow+ stagger and I couldn't use Chi Wave as much as I would have liked in certain points of fights.

    If I could keep my current level of haste and reach the hard cap I would but until gear allows that I'm sticking to the soft caps.
    Main reason i say screw the hard cap, is it's 100% useless when you're not tanking, majority of the fights so far require 2 tanks.

  9. #249
    I think this is an issue that could be applied to a lot of wow theorycrafting. When you run the numbers you are generally looking at large periods of time, and certain things like tiny chances to miss and stuff do get easily dwarfed in a 10 minute fight. I totally agree that if you are concerned about the numbers of a constant 10 mins of doing your thing then yes the math does not lie. However in wow we are never looking at a pure 10 mins of doing something.
    For dps we have phase transitions and burning down adds over short periods of time which drastically change the value of cooldowns and the importance of not getting misses during in a short period of time.
    For tanks, often it is a two tank fight, where one tank is not really tanking for half the fight as they each taunt from one another. For instance, Garajal is not a 6 minute tank fight, it a fight with 1 minute of tanking, then 1 minute of dps and then back again. This difference means we can't just use a continual long term numbers and need to examine different time periods.
    This has all been alluded to in this thread already, but I feel that dogmatically following one or another view point without acknowledging that the other is just as valid for actual tanking is foolhardy. There also seems to a mix of input from people who actually play and experience these changes and people who simply play with numbers and do think that mathematical skill and the value of anecdotal evidence are both being used as weapons here.
    I've raided top 100 and gained server first titles in my time playing wow and I find that numbers are excellent at giving you direction, but you will only truly play at your best when you put your own effort into finding exactly what works for you, those looking for easy answer need to accept that they will not be able to be the best by just following someone else.

  10. #250
    Meant this for another thread..../wave

  11. #251
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Sorry been busy last few days, hadn't been able to get back to this thread. Thanks Mad for continuing the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    That's because your playing with shit dps classes then
    Wanted to get back to this. All tanks have a 5x threat modifier, which is why

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    If the DPS you're playing with are doing over five times the DPS you are as a tank, when tanks are currently pushing towards the top of the DPS charts, then that's the tank's problem, not the DPS.
    makes sense, and why threat isn't an issue unless you are just a bad tank.

  12. #252
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I think the difference between a dps reaching caps and a tank is 2 different issues. As a dps you have limited time to do your damage, every spell counts and a missed attack is basically you doing nothing for 2 seconds, BrM tanking is different. We spam Tiger Palm if we have nothing else to do, our gcds aren't really that valuable, and as long as I have a steady stream on chi incoming I'm a happy panda. And yes by not capping that stream will be slightly less consistent...but in the end it will be more. It's not that difficult to 'pay attention' to a missed KS, turn up your volume...it makes a different sound.
    This makes me think of my own tank (Warrior)
    You're making the argument that overall less damage is better then more consistent damage intake.
    Spikes is what kills tanks, not overall damage taken.

    Edit, just realized i was over a week to late

  13. #253
    I love this Cap vs No Cap Brewmaster debate, actually.

    Right now, It means a lot, 15% expertise is 5100 points of rating, and 7.5% hit is half that. (both combined are a whopping 7650 rating)

    If you're sitting on something like 25,000 combined points of rating which would be a lower end set of gear. (~ilvl 463) 7.65k rating is roughly 30% of your stat allocation.

    If hypothetically, You're in something like 40k worth of combined rating, middle of next tier, 7.65k is only ~20% of your stat allocation.

    And again, if you're at something like 55k in the middle of tier 16 (The supposed final tier), 13% of your allocation.



    Basically, while it's pretty taxing to spend 1/3rd of your stat budget on something like taking some of the RNG out of your rotation. (something healers might love you for, as monks are known to be somewhat spikey when things do not go their way, but I digress.) BUT. In BIS gear, it may make more sense to do so, simply because the cost is arbitrary, and as your other stats climb, their value begins to diminish.

  14. #254
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Basically, while it's pretty taxing to spend 1/3rd of your stat budget on something like taking some of the RNG out of your rotation. (something healers might love you for, as monks are known to be somewhat spikey when things do not go their way, but I digress.) BUT. In BIS gear, it may make more sense to do so, simply because the cost is arbitrary, and as your other stats climb, their value begins to diminish.
    Monk's are spikey more due to them being "avoidance" takes and it shouldn't really drastically be effected by your expertise choice. Either option should result in the same relative up-time on Shuffle/Guard, letting those drop is what creates an un-justified risk of spikes.

    Personally I found wasting on that rating on expertise over haste made me struggle a lot harder to create enough Chi to fuel everything compared to just "fixing" a missed KS every once in a while as I try to keep at least a few GCD's buffer on my Shuffle.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

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