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  1. #21
    I'm no mathmatician but from my own anecdotal evidence, without having much hit and exp, you can get several misses in a row, be unable to keep shuffle up and it can very well be fatal if you're not saving your cooldowns for that moment, or you get stunned. Which means you cannot organize personal cooldowns for set moments in a fight. Sure you can have pleeeeenty of chi with the extra haste at many parts of the fight but you can and willl get unlucky with a string of misses which increases the RNG factor for your healers, even though you may take less damage overall over the course of a bossfight.

  2. #22
    In a 6 min fight, we will miss 10 Keg Smashes, so that is 10 chi, 80 energy, and 10 gcds lost.
    I take it you are assuming here that you follow up a missed Keg Smash with a Jab? Otherwise it's 20 Chi lost.

    Just so we're clear - I just tested it:

    A missed or avoided Keg Smash puts Keg Smash on cooldown, costs 8 energy and gives us 0 Chi.

    A missed or avoided Blackout Kick still costs 2 Chi, but does give us Shuffle.
    Last edited by Aurlon; 2012-11-11 at 12:25 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I think alot of people think that hit/exp are valuable in and of themselves for your own survival...when in actuality they are not.
    You could maybe make that argument as a net claim, but its absolutely false otherwise.
    You get Chi and save Energy from not missing, which can of course be used to increase your surv.

    Extremely low levels of hit/exp also makes the rotation extremely clunky, something a sim won't tell you.
    Its even quite possible to get unlucky and cap energy.

    You can say these are merely quality of life factors, but a person can only monitor so much. If you have to stare at your energy and chi bar the whole fight it will definitely hinder your raid awareness.

    That doesn't mean I am advocating 15% exp, because I am not. I argued that to be wrong from the start...
    (Another fault to sims, they can be wrong, and often are, but since its all coded it can't be discerned easily. The best sims just model what we already know from experience to be true.)
    Instead I find 7.5% hit and Exp to be a good mix. It keeps your rotation rather smooth without going overboard, and makes for an easy transition into dps.
    Last edited by Obamatheone; 2012-11-11 at 12:32 PM.

  4. #24
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzar View Post
    I might be a fucking retard and have no clue what a "single-roll" system is, but correct me if I'm wrong. Exp/hit affect the amount of attacks you effectively HIT the target with. If crit % stays the same, more hits will inevitable result in more crits over a 5 minute fight, no?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 11:07 AM ----------



    In 10-man raids these days Chuupag, survivability and mitigation is not all that matters. A tank should be able to pull out some decent numbers, for progress raids to be able to make enrage timers. I'd definitely like to see logs of a Monk ignoring 7.5 % hit/exp in a top end PvE guild.

    Furthermore, it seems like your post is looking at Brewmasters like their only job is to stay alive. This is the real misconception of the post in my honest opinion. Tanks are not like that anymore. I don't know if you realize how much affect hit/exp have on your HPS (through Guards on raid)? Well, I can tell you it's HUGE! And at the end of the day, tank deaths are definitely not the most common reason for wipes these days. So, to narrow it down, you have two options:

    1. More survivability for you personally, but low DPS and HPS.
    2. Lower survivability for you personallly, but much higher DPS and HPS.

    It might just be me, but in 10-man raiding, I'd go for option 2. It might be different in 25m.

    And please remember we're talking soft cap here - not hard cap. I am definitely convinced, after much testing, that Haste > Exp, past 7.5 %, though I will be trying to get the exp hard cap at higher ilvls, so I can push my DPS/HPS even more.

    Looking forward to your reply.

    /Zumzar
    No, what you described is a 2-roll system. Yellow attacks are on a 2-roll system. In a 2-roll system it first determines if the attack hit...then it determines if the hit was a crit. So 100-X=Y where X is your combined miss/dodge/parry/block/glancing and Y is the new total hits it then gives you your crit chance of Y. A single roll system you will get your crit chance on the original 100...not Y. So hit/exp have no affect on EB.

    A tank has 3 jobs. 1) survive 2) do damage 3) provide utility...in that order. Hit/exp have little to no affect on your HPS, as all of that is based on your attack power, which you get from Agility and Vengence. Yes you will put out slightly more statue guards with hit/exp, but their size and the size of your lvl 30 talent's power comes from AP...not dps.

    So as I said before hit/exp are dps and statue stats...which come under 2 and 3 of how we do our jobs.

    And how can you say you are for the soft cap but not the hard...they do the exact same thing per point at 7.49% vs 7.50% vs 7.51%. I just don't understand how you can make the argument for the soft cap b/c to me it seems it's either you have to hard cap...or you don't need much at all.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 01:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tkain View Post
    since when does a keg smash only give you 1 chi ?

    every keg smash gives you 2 chi

    so to follow your calculations:

    missing 10 keg smash means 20 chi lost
    assuming you really have 0 haste on your gear and can reforge it all into haste you get as you say about 2 energy/sec
    this leads to 720 extra energy. as this energy is only used for jabs we get 18 jabs or 18 chi (assuming all of these hit which is very unlikly as we have no hit & expertise caps)

    So tell me how losing 20 chi is good for gaining 18 chi if we are extremly lucky ?
    You get 32 energy back from a missed Keg Smash and immediately follow with a jab, so the net loss is only 1 chi, 8 energy, and 1 gcd. You don't have to assume 0 haste as 18% haste will give you roughly 2 energy/sec no matter your current haste. And I already took the missed replacement jabs into account with the original math.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Niz View Post
    I'm no mathmatician but from my own anecdotal evidence, without having much hit and exp, you can get several misses in a row, be unable to keep shuffle up and it can very well be fatal if you're not saving your cooldowns for that moment, or you get stunned. Which means you cannot organize personal cooldowns for set moments in a fight. Sure you can have pleeeeenty of chi with the extra haste at many parts of the fight but you can and willl get unlucky with a string of misses which increases the RNG factor for your healers, even though you may take less damage overall over the course of a bossfight.
    The chance of consecutive misses was already discussed. with 0/0 you have a 5% chance to miss a jab after a KS, and a 1% chance to miss that next jab. But since you can't get to 0/0 I posited a more likely scenario with 4/4, which gives a 2% chance to miss a jab after a missed KS and a .3% chance to miss that next jab. So statistically very unlikely as you would have to play on average for roughly 45 minutes to miss 3 consecutive chi producing attacks.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 02:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    You could maybe make that argument as a net claim, but its absolutely false otherwise.
    You get Chi and save Energy from not missing, which can of course be used to increase your surv.

    Extremely low levels of hit/exp also makes the rotation extremely clunky, something a sim won't tell you.
    Its even quite possible to get unlucky and cap energy.

    You can say these are merely quality of life factors, but a person can only monitor so much. If you have to stare at your energy and chi bar the whole fight it will definitely hinder your raid awareness.

    That doesn't mean I am advocating 15% exp, because I am not. I argued that to be wrong from the start...
    (Another fault to sims, they can be wrong, and often are, but since its all coded it can't be discerned easily. The best sims just model what we already know from experience to be true.)
    Instead I find 7.5% hit and Exp to be a good mix. It keeps your rotation rather smooth without going overboard, and makes for an easy transition into dps.
    I don't see it as false. The only way hit/exp make our survival easier is QoL as they don't increase our survivability except in a round-a-bout way. I already watch my energy and chi, and since I don't take the caps I pay attention to misses.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-11 at 07:08 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I don't see it as false. The only way hit/exp make our survival easier is QoL as they don't increase our survivability except in a round-a-bout way. I already watch my energy and chi, and since I don't take the caps I pay attention to misses.
    You don't raid, how could you know what you're talking about? Unless you play a monk other than the one in your sig, you appear to be 0/16 normal modes.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You don't raid, how could you know what you're talking about? Unless you play a monk other than the one in your sig, you appear to be 0/16 normal modes.
    Constructive criticism is appreciated, but this just seems to always be thrown around when people run out of things to back up their arguments. Kills does not equal attempts, and lack of kills in my raid group does not equal lack of knowledge of my class. I choose not to raid hardcore as I have wife/kid/job and don't have the time to commit...so the raid group I'm in is a bit lacking, most of them have never raided before. I enjoy theorycrafting so I continue to do so. I have hardcore raided in the past, which can be attested to my FoS Undying as that was only available until Ulduar hit. Can we all grow up a little and just throw the 'you don't know b/c you don't do it' argument out the window...b/c it is basically the nuclear option in terms of debating an issue.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-11 at 08:25 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Constructive criticism is appreciated, but this just seems to always be thrown around when people run out of things to back up their arguments. Kills does not equal attempts, and lack of kills in my raid group does not equal lack of knowledge of my class. I choose not to raid hardcore as I have wife/kid/job and don't have the time to commit...so the raid group I'm in is a bit lacking. I enjoy theorycrafting so I continue to do so. I have hardcore raided in the past, which can be attested to my FoS Undying as that was only available until Ulduar hit. Can we all grow up a little and just throw the 'you don't know b/c you don't do it' argument out the window...b/c it is basically the nuclear option in terms of debating an issue.

    See, my main problem with your argument is that you're claiming to be right, but without the experience to back it up, how can we REALLY take your word for it? Proof is in the pudding, as they say. BrMs that have accomplished way more than anyone else swear by the current hit/exp capping, and yet you refute that and say that we should trust your theorycrafting over people with experience and success?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Constructive criticism is appreciated, but this just seems to always be thrown around when people run out of things to back up their arguments. Kills does not equal attempts, and lack of kills in my raid group does not equal lack of knowledge of my class. I choose not to raid hardcore as I have wife/kid/job and don't have the time to commit...so the raid group I'm in is a bit lacking. I enjoy theorycrafting so I continue to do so. I have hardcore raided in the past, which can be attested to my FoS Undying as that was only available until Ulduar hit. Can we all grow up a little and just throw the 'you don't know b/c you don't do it' argument out the window...b/c it is basically the nuclear option in terms of debating an issue.
    I became suspicious when you repeatedly threw away the short-term impact on survival so I wondered if maybe you hadn't done any of the harder hitting bosses like Gara'jal, Will of the Emperor, or even heroic Stone Guards. These are bosses that can take you from 100% to 0 in 4 seconds or less, making short-term survival absolutely paramount to the benefits over the course of a fight. If you had even done them once to see their damage patterns you'd know, but you don't. Short-term survival far outweighs taking 5% less damage over the course of a fight. I would have brushed it off if maybe you had only done normal modes and had never been in an imminent death situation, but you haven't even done that. You've got numbers, but you can't categorically say that missed GCDs are irrelevant in the short term when you've never been in that situation.

  9. #29
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    That doesn't disprove what I'm trying to convey. If a boss would kill you in 4 seconds a missed gcd can't really save you there, and the likelihood of multiple things going wrong is so minuscule as to be a once a night event if that. All I'm trying to do is shed some light onto a subject that many people have just taken as gospel. Feel free to try it out, preferably with an open mind, rather than just spouting all knowing proclamations.

  10. #30
    I am confused about what you are trying to convey in this thread, I don't really think you are relaying any useful information, just being derogatory to anyone who doesn't share your opinion. Also Undying was the 10 man easy mode version of the Immortal and it was available until the end of Wrath, it's not really anything close to a hardcore title at all.

  11. #31
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psykewne View Post
    I am confused about what you are trying to convey in this thread, I don't really think you are relaying any useful information, just being derogatory to anyone who doesn't share your opinion. Also Undying was the 10 man easy mode version of the Immortal and it was available until the end of Wrath, it's not really anything close to a hardcore title at all.
    Check the date, I got Undying 3/29/09, ulduar came out 4/14/09. And oh yea don't have anyone die at all even on trash since the achieve was bugged and a death on frogger counted.

  12. #32
    Having the Chi to Chi Wave yourself or Purifying Brew is very important at any given time. If you need to Guard soon and missing a single Jab or Keg Smash delays that by a single second, you could die. You don't need to miss two Jabs or two Keg Smashes in a row to screw yourself over, it only takes one. Delaying important abilities by a second or two can kill you. Having more energy throughout the fight to use one Purifying Brew per minute that you wouldn't have been able to otherwise is irrelevant because being able to use abilities exactly when you need them is more important than just using them more when you probably don't.

    You're trying to debunk an "all-knowing proclamation" with another one of your own, except yours isn't backed with experience or even a working knowledge of how much damage you take at any given second on a typical fight. Throwing RNG into the mix to get better Chi over time isn't something a tank is likely to try on a theory from someone that can't even test it himself.

  13. #33
    the main flaw with using sims is that unless you plan to run a boss 10000 times you are just gambling.

    while the math works out nicely for avoiding hit/exp, in a real scenario missing your first KS actually can kill you. might not be right then, it may not show itself until later in the fight when healers are OOM when the boss is at 5% because they had to bomb you for the very start of the fight.

    i still value haste over hit/exp, but i can also remain soft capped by doing so. the point of hit/exp is to remove the probability of things not going the way you want them to. things are MUCH easier to plan around when things are consistent.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Check the date, I got Undying 3/29/09, ulduar came out 4/14/09. And oh yea don't have anyone die at all even on trash since the achieve was bugged and a death on frogger counted.
    That is irrelevant, you said it was made a FoS after Ulduar came out, you are incorrect, I am well aware you got it before. However 10 man in wrath was not hardcore raiding and your pretense at being anything more than a random player in a sea of random players with an unremarkable raiding history does nothing to reinforce your claims at knowing anything more about this game than any other random forum goer.

    Expressing opinions and challenging theories is all well and good, but pronouncing yourself as correct and others as wrong demands far more backing.

    For my two cents worth in this debate. I find that the amount of damage a tank can do in raid now is a not insubstantial amount, this is one point that has made my select go back to the hardcap after experimenting with pushing haste more. However my second point really sums up this debate I feel. We are talking about a handful of chi at best over the course of a fight in most cases. A handful of chi in most fights will not really do alot. Most fights use two tanks, many of those have tank swaps which means you can pool chi when not tanking, those that dont often emphasize other mechanics like the dodging on the will of the emperor. Factors like these give periods where using chi is not really mitigating any damage at all due to us avoiding it in other means, I cant think of a fight where we are constantly using a full rotation for the full 10 mins or whatever of an encounter.

    When it comes down to such small numbers, I find that the best solution is to use what you feel comfortable with. I have spent several thousand gold regemming and changing things to find what I like most, there is nothing wrong in that. Mathematics when it comes to healing and tanking is not good enough to completely explain the playing of a class, heck even for dps maths only goes so far as when you have movement in fights it can affect how you choose to use abilities or the order in which you can do things.

    Arguing over semantics and tiny numbers in a game where the biggest factor in winning is to not stand in the big pool of bad on the floor seems to me to be rather futile and makes everyone come off looking bad, nitpicking away at each other for some kind of intellectual crown that won't win you any real merit. Waving a bit of paper in the scientific community claiming something only leads to many people trying to disprove you, stand by your research, sure, but like the scientific community, show some damn respect for your peers. You are not better, we all play the same game, lets try to get along shall we?

  15. #35

    Chuupag: why you're a terrible idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Damage dealers shouldn't care about reliability ever,because no matter what the dps will vary a lot due to procs/crits and other stuff. Also that 150k boss health example is kind of pointless since the chance this will happen is close to zero.
    The reason damage dealers cap hit/exp is because those stats are usually the best dps stats by far.

    They're the best dps stats becuase you do 0 dps if you don't hit. I like that you chose to disagree with him and then come to the same conclusion as him while still disagreeing. You either like to argue or your helper let you go unsupervised.


    OP needs to start making his point with actually values because all he's doing now is bullshitting. i'll say it again you aren't going to gain 7650 haste by avoiding hit and expertise. remember when you said that a lot of gear naturally has hit and exp on it so saying you'll be 0/0 is unlikely? well same goes for haste, every piece of gear in this game has haste on it.

    I'd gain roughly 300 haste if i avoided being capped, how much of a benefit is that? and again i'll repeat: show me the math behind why i should keep mastery and crit over hit/exp cap.

    you also said yourself that you aren't taking into account the statue that shields others, are you counting goto orbs? probably not. you're nitpicking very exact things so that you can be correct. who the fuck knows?

    did you have an argument in game about how useless hit/exp is and decided you'd waste 4 hours of your life doing math so you could come out correct if you controlled everything that affects your calculations?
    Last edited by itsyaboy; 2012-11-11 at 09:41 PM.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=Zumzar;19063629]I might be a fucking retard and have no clue what a "single-roll" system is, but correct me if I'm wrong. Exp/hit affect the amount of attacks you effectively HIT the target with. If crit % stays the same, more hits will inevitable result in more crits over a 5 minute fight, no?

    Incorrect.

    One roll means the system rolls exactly once

    so only one thing can happen. either you miss, crit, hit, or glance.

    i.e @33% crit and no hit cap (white hits) yellow uses double roll.

    33% chance to crit 6701-10000
    22% chance to hit 4501-6700
    15% chance to glance 3001-4500
    7.5% chance to dodge 2251-3000
    15% chance to parry 751-2250
    7.5% chance to miss 1-750

    it will roll 1-10000
    if it rolls 2500 your attack would get dodged
    nothing but empty space here bro. move along now.

  17. #37
    I think one of your original premises is flawed. Keg Smash gives 2 chi and a missed Keg smash gives 0 chi, therefore a missed Keg Smash is costing 2 chi which requires 2 GCDs to gain back with Expel Harm/Jab unless you happen to have Power Strikes up at the time. If you are relying on at 2 chi to get shuffle up after using Chi on Guard/Chi Wave then you will have to wait 3 seconds without Shuffle.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Apellosine View Post
    I think one of your original premises is flawed. Keg Smash gives 2 chi and a missed Keg smash gives 0 chi, therefore a missed Keg Smash is costing 2 chi which requires 2 GCDs to gain back with Expel Harm/Jab unless you happen to have Power Strikes up at the time. If you are relying on at 2 chi to get shuffle up after using Chi on Guard/Chi Wave then you will have to wait 3 seconds without Shuffle.
    i think he actually repeated the 1 chi statement even after he was corrected.
    he is just wanting to argue.

    and it has been stated by blues that tank dps will matter, and enrage timers are indeed tight, so...
    yeah, ill stick with hit / exp softcap, rest into haste trying not to take away to much crit, mmm elusive brew

    also wouldn't haste give less elusive brew stacks if you did ignore hit/exp?
    granted, you hit a tiny bit faster, but only white hits give it, which is why i use a 2h instead of dw, more white hits = more elusive since dw hit penalty is huge
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  19. #39
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    i think he actually repeated the 1 chi statement even after he was corrected.
    he is just wanting to argue.

    and it has been stated by blues that tank dps will matter, and enrage timers are indeed tight, so...
    yeah, ill stick with hit / exp softcap, rest into haste trying not to take away to much crit, mmm elusive brew

    also wouldn't haste give less elusive brew stacks if you did ignore hit/exp?
    granted, you hit a tiny bit faster, but only white hits give it, which is why i use a 2h instead of dw, more white hits = more elusive since dw hit penalty is huge
    How many times does this has to be explained. If you miss a Keg Smash and you immediately follow it with a jab all you have lost is 1 chi, 8 energy, and 1 gcd. When you miss with a Keg Smash it gives you 0 chi and 32 energy refunded. You plow that energy back into a jab. So the net result is 1 chi, 8 energy, and 1 gcd lost.

    How would more haste produce less EB stacks? More haste gives more white attacks, which means more chances to crit with those white attacks. Also 2-hand and DW provide just about the exact same EB stacks per min, DW is just more consistent.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 06:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by youlowgee View Post
    OP needs to start making his point with actually values because all he's doing now is bullshitting. i'll say it again you aren't going to gain 7650 haste by avoiding hit and expertise. remember when you said that a lot of gear naturally has hit and exp on it so saying you'll be 0/0 is unlikely? well same goes for haste, every piece of gear in this game has haste on it.

    I'd gain roughly 300 haste if i avoided being capped, how much of a benefit is that? and again i'll repeat: show me the math behind why i should keep mastery and crit over hit/exp cap.
    I have been using numbers and math. If X gives you more than Y, .5X will also give you more than .5Y. So if you can't actually get all 7k+ points into haste, which we all know you can't, whatever that number is is still beneficial. Say you wanted to throw them into crit instead, that's a bit under 13% crit, which is roughly another 40 seconds of EB uptime over the same 6 min in the original post. I don't think I've mentioned mastery at all...

    I just find this whole situation hilarious. Whether you know it or not...I would be willing to wager large sums on money that the hit/exp being the end all stats originally came from Ven's spreadsheet. Even if you didn't hear it from that, the guide or person you read up on or theorycrafted for you probably got it from the spreadsheet. It became ingrained into the fabric of the spec, and then it was found out to be incorrect, but everyone already knew how to play with the caps. This is more about a change of play style than anything else. Our brothers the Mistweavers have a choice to sit back and cast or fistweave, so should not we have the choice to take the hardcaps and not worry about misses and have a simpler rotation and then also have the choice to alter our play style by not taking that same choice and having a bit more 'by the seat of our pants' rotation, but have more uptime on our mitigation than we could afford before.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-11 at 11:08 PM.

  20. #40
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    In the long run, the only time that Overall Damage taken matters is a fight where you are taking damage, and your healers are at max healing, and you are steadily sliding down the bar. There is no fight like this in the game- Overall damage taken doesn't really matter as long as healers dont run oom. What DOES matter is the few seconds where you can get taken down faster then your healers can react. In this, Expertise/Hit capping is not only nice, but neccesary. Also, I did notice something you said earlier- Missing a Keg Smash is NOT 8 energy, 1 chi, and a GCD. Its 8 energy, 2 chi, a GCD, AND a Keg Smash CD. Currently, Keg Smash is our most efficient Chi generator. Missing any single one can be noticed in the overall damage taken chart, more so then, say, 5% more haste. All haste does is allow you to replace more Tiger Palm's with Jab, which still isn't as efficient as Keg Smash. Finally, not only does this affect Keg Smash chi generation, but it also affects application of Shuffle. ANY long-time tank can tell you that when they wiped because thier first 5 attacks missed the boss when they were single tanking and the boss smacked the 3 top dps stuck out a lot more then when they had a lucky dodge/parry streak and managed to avoid 10 attacks in a row. DK tanks can also tell you about that one time when they died because thier DS missed 3 times in a row, pre DS buff. For Monks, that applies to Shuffle- Missing 3 blackout kicks in a row can lead to Shuffle falling off, and on a hard-hitting boss, thats a sudden 20% extra damage coming in if you dont use Fort brew to smooth it out.



    For these reasons, Hit/Expertise capping is neccesary. Missing Keg Smash, missing Blackout Kick = bad.
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