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  1. #41
    I remember missing that Jab, delaying my Guard by one second. I actually never cast that Guard...

    Personally i'm not advocating hard cap, but i fully understand those who hard cap their Brewmaster on single tank fights for various reasons, or fights that do not require tank swaps (i do question the usefulness of hard capping on fights in which you spend half your time behind the boss though).
    If you miss a Keg Smash and you immediately follow it with a jab all you have lost is 1 chi, 8 energy, and 1 gcd.
    Actually it's a bit more than that. The Jab you cast instead of KS can miss too, resulting into a further loss of 8 energy and 1 gcd.
    missing Blackout Kick = bad
    Not so bad. Missing BoK gives Shuffle anyway, you just lose the damage (plus a chance to proc Gift of the Ox and your weapon enchant) if you miss.
    Last edited by Morion; 2012-11-11 at 11:30 PM.

  2. #42
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Missing 3 blackout kicks in a row can lead to Shuffle falling off
    I stopped giving credence to your post about here...as a missed BoK still gives shuffle.

  3. #43
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    Taken from Ask Mr Robot, as they explain it more clearly than I could:

    Getting exactly to the hit cap doesn’t do anything magical for you. It means you will never miss, but that comes at a cost. It means you give up another stat, like crit, haste or mastery. Mr. Robot asks you: would you rather miss ONCE per boss fight, if you could crit more often… resulting in more DPS?

    Here are some stats on missing

    Let’s assume you get out 630 attacks on an average boss fight. Mr. Robot gets people to within 0.05% to 0.1% of the hit cap. But let’s say he drops you as low a 0.25% under the hit cap (14.75% for casters and 7.25% for other classes). You have the following chances to miss:
    ■A 20% chance to NEVER miss during the boss fight
    ■A 32.5% chance to miss ONLY ONCE during the boss fight
    ■A 1.6% chance to miss FIVE times during the boss fight
    ■A 0.0005% chance to miss TEN time (yes, the 0′s and decimal are right)

    Let’s put this into perspective. This means that if you are 0.25% under the hit cap, you have about a 50% chance to never miss or only miss once. So on average, every other boss that you fight, you’ll only miss once, or never at all.

    Now Mr. Robot wants to ask, “Do you want to take your 50% chance, and add some damage to it?”

    If Mr. Robot can work out the numbers on his own, he might put you slightly under the cap, but he’ll give you more haste, crit, strength, int, or whatever stat your heart desires. This will allow you to hit harder, better, faster, stronger… on every single hit! And you get all of this for a tiny chance to miss more than once, on every other fight.

    Worried you’ll miss that one crucial shot, and the raid will wipe?

    EDIT: A revised version of this section is coming soon. This is a very common concern that “hit-cappers” bring up, but it really isn’t a good counter argument. Mr. Robot is working on a detailed mathy description of why.

    But if Hit’s stat weight is higher than my next stat, why would it ever make sense to not be hit capped?

    Mr. Robot wants to get you the highest score (which translates into the highest DPS for damagers, damage mitigation for tanks, etc). It’s easy to agree that any hit rating over the cap is wasted. But what isn’t as obvious is that getting exactly to the hit cap isn’t always the best option.

    Let’s use an example to understand this better. Let’s say +Hit is your highest weighted stat with a weight of 2. Let’s say Crit has a rating of 1.8 and Mastery 1.2. The thing to focus on in this example is that Crit is much more valuable than Mastery, AND there are a finite number of combinations to get you to an exact number. On to the example: it’s possible that to get you exactly to the hit cap, you’d have to reforge all of your Crit to Hit. BUT!!! Let’s say you can get to within 20 Hit rating of the cap but you preserve all of your Crit, and instead reforge all of your mastery – since Mastery is much less valuable than Crit. Your final score would be higher. Here are some made up numbers as an example:

    To get exactly hit capped:
    Lose 600 Crit: -1080
    Gain 600 Hit (get exactly to cap): +1200
    Total Score change: +120

    To get within 20 of hit cap:
    Lose 580 Mastery: -696
    Gain 580 Hit (20 below hit cap): +1160
    Total Score change: +464



    http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2012/11/h...bout-hit-caps/
    No game will ever kill wow. Though Blizard themselves are making a pretty damm good attempt lately.

    THE FIRST RULE OF BRAWLERS GUILD IS YOU DO NOT GET INVITED TO BRAWLERS GUILD.

  4. #44
    Quick notes:

    1. Experience doesn't say whether someone is right or not. It merely serves to support the argument, not the backbone of your argument. Numbers are absolutely just as valid as experience. There are players who don't even raid that know far more about the class than you do. There are players who are doing world firsts that know less about the class than you do.

    Clearing content =/= Knowledge of the class
    Knowledge of the class =/= Skill (skill is execution)
    Skill =/= Clearing content

    2. Stated numerous times, 1 KS yields 2 chi. If you miss KS, what are you going to do? You're going to hit Jab. Therefore, all you lose is the 1 additional chi from KS and any energy thereafter. If you can't grasp this, then you should wait until you do understand it before posting.

    3. There is a significantly different approach when you look at gearing for short-term windows versus long-term (overall) windows. In long-term windows, averages are the driving forces. In short-term windows, probabilities (or more specifically, variance) and personal weights are the driving forces. The probability of what happens in a 5s sub-window is insignificant when you're analyzing a 360s window. However, when your window is 8s long and you're looking at a 5s sub-window, that's over 60% of your data, which means it will much more significantly impact your conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    Actually it's a bit more than that. The Jab you cast instead of KS can miss too, resulting into a further loss of 8 energy and 1 gcd.
    Not really all that important. The probability of these events happening in succession is 5%, or 1 in 20 times that you try to KS->Jab.

    The true average energy cost of KS/Jab is:

    Energy_Cost = 1 / (1 - F) * (40 - 32 * F), where F = chance to fail your attack (boss's effective miss%+dodge%+parry%)

    For F = 0.225 (no hit/expertise at all), Energy_Cost = 42.32

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Every 340 hit or exp saves you 1 miss/dodge/parry white and yellow attack roughly every 2 minutes. It also increases your dps by slightly less than 1% due to the inability to overcome glancing blows. That yellow attack will be one of the following: Jab, Expel Harm, Keg Smash, Blackout Kick, or Tiger Palm. Assuming an average amount of energy regen at 12/sec will give you 1440 energy during those 2 minutes. You will have 15 KS for 600 energy, and the remaining 840 will give you 21 Jab/Expel. Giving you 51 chi in those 2 minutes (57 with Power Strikes). To keep shuffle up requires 40 of that chi, 8 for Guard, and the remaining 3 (or 9) on Purifying Brew. That seems a bit low for PB usage...so you'd probably let shuffle slip at times. So of your 120 gcds I am not going to assume perfect play, but I'll assume 100 in those 2 minutes b/c of either hesitation to TP b/c KS was coming up, movement, or not queueing up your next attack while the gcd is still going. 15 will be KS, 21 will be Jab/Expel, 20(ish) will be BoK, and the remaining 44 will be Tiger Palm. Guard and PB are not on the gcd. The chance of that 1 missed yellow attack being KS is very easy to calculate in this situation...about 15%. A missed BoK still gives shuffle...so that is just a dps loss, and a missed TP is just a dps loss as well. So for every 1% hit and exp you protect against .075 missed KS per min or .1 missed Jab/Expel per min which is really the only ones that matter. Extrapolating from that, going from 0/0 to 7.5/15 you protect against ~1.7 missed KS a min and ~2.5 missed Jab/Expel a min. The question then becomes can haste and/or crit make up for that.

    Every 425 haste gives you 1% haste, which gives you roughly 1 extra white attack every 2 minutes and increases your energy regen by .11, it has no effect on yellow attacks. Since white attacks make up a small portion of our dps, 1% haste gives much less than a 1% increase in dps. It also takes almost 6 minutes for that 1% haste to give us another Jab. The 1 extra white attack gives on average .75 seconds of Elusive Brew over 2 min, assuming an average 25% crit.

    Every 600 crit gives you 1% crit, which will give you roughly 1 extra white attack crit every 2 minutes, and (100-miss/dodge/parry)/100 yellow attack crit every 2 minutes. Since both our white and yellow attacks can crit, 1% crit gives pretty much exactly 1% increase in dps, slightly less if not hit/exp capped...but still more than haste. The reason for this is the majority of our damage is yellow, and yellow attacks use a 2-roll system, so that hit/exp give more value to crit for yellow. That 1% crit gives you roughly 3 seconds of Elusive Brew over 2 min, making it roughly equal to .75% dodge averaged out, but if played properly is worth slightly more as you can anticipate the swing timer and have EB up just prior to the hit.

    So in the end, in terms of stat points, 1% hit/exp = .8% haste = .57% crit. So the compairison breaks down to this:

    Is insurance against

    .075 KS/min(1chi, 8 energy, 1gcd per 13min20sec) + .1 Jab/min(8 energy, 1 gcd per 10min) + ~.9% dps

    worth more than either

    1 chi every 7.5 min + .6 seconds of EB (~.15% dodge) + ~.2% dps

    or

    1.7 seconds of EB (~.43% dodge) + between .6% and 1% dps (depending on hit/exp)

    Worth noting is that haste and crit compliment each other, meaning those values shore each other up the more you get of them, hit/exp do not have such a relationship with the others.

    Here is all the math, you decide for yourself.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-15 at 04:13 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Constructive criticism is appreciated, but this just seems to always be thrown around when people run out of things to back up their arguments. Kills does not equal attempts, and lack of kills in my raid group does not equal lack of knowledge of my class. I choose not to raid hardcore as I have wife/kid/job and don't have the time to commit...so the raid group I'm in is a bit lacking, most of them have never raided before. I enjoy theorycrafting so I continue to do so. I have hardcore raided in the past, which can be attested to my FoS Undying as that was only available until Ulduar hit. Can we all grow up a little and just throw the 'you don't know b/c you don't do it' argument out the window...b/c it is basically the nuclear option in terms of debating an issue.
    The problem is you don't even have math to back you up really. You are just using anecdotal evidence without any real experience.

    Hit/Exp = Energy + Chi

    That is a fact,
    Those are hardly roundabout ways of survivability...

    And seeing as most of the best tanks still shoot for something around the soft caps, well that should tell you something... Its just like how mastery is good for progression, and sims say its shit in general. Real game situations and sims, even if they are perfect, are often at odds with one another.

    Sims are only a tool, not the whole picture.
    Last edited by Obamatheone; 2012-11-12 at 01:00 AM.

  7. #47
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    Hit/Exp = Energy + Chi
    Hit/exp does not equal energy and Chi in any conceivable sense. You could arguably say that hit/exp equals negative chi...as you can gain more chi with haste. Also see above post that you apparently didn't read since it is loaded with math...as was the OP.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Hit/exp does not equal energy and Chi in any conceivable sense. You could arguably say that hit/exp equals negative chi...as you can gain more chi with haste. Also see above post that you apparently didn't read since it is loaded with math...as was the OP.
    Yes, as I said a long time ago, long before you that 15% exp is terrible and haste yields more chi.

    However, you are saying that hit/exp have no surv value by themselves and that is utterly false.
    They do yield chi and energy.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 01:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I have been using numbers and math. If X gives you more than Y, .5X will also give you more than .5Y. So if you can't actually get all 7k+ points into haste, which we all know you can't, whatever that number is is still beneficial. Say you wanted to throw them into crit instead, that's a bit under 13% crit, which is roughly another 40 seconds of EB uptime over the same 6 min in the original post. I don't think I've mentioned mastery at all...

    I just find this whole situation hilarious. Whether you know it or not...I would be willing to wager large sums on money that the hit/exp being the end all stats originally came from Ven's spreadsheet. Even if you didn't hear it from that, the guide or person you read up on or theorycrafted for you probably got it from the spreadsheet. It became ingrained into the fabric of the spec, and then it was found out to be incorrect, but everyone already knew how to play with the caps. This is more about a change of play style than anything else. Our brothers the Mistweavers have a choice to sit back and cast or fistweave, so should not we have the choice to take the hardcaps and not worry about misses and have a simpler rotation and then also have the choice to alter our play style by not taking that same choice and having a bit more 'by the seat of our pants' rotation, but have more uptime on our mitigation than we could afford before.
    Just throwing up random #s is not math. Just like 13.33!

    I find it even more amusing that your only source of info is the spreadsheet you are mocking right now.

  9. #49
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Do I need to quote the entirety of post #45...or can you scroll up and see it yourself?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 08:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    Yes, as I said a long time ago, long before you that 15% exp is terrible and haste yields more chi.

    However, you are saying that hit/exp have no surv value by themselves and that is utterly false.
    They do yield chi and energy.
    How do they yield energy and chi, explain.

  10. #50
    The thing is your all arguing about a subject that really just comes down to preference.

    Sure you don't HAVE to cap hit and expertise and i know theres sims saying that it dropped down a lot in value after the first spreadsheets that were brought out but im sure like most people you've given not being expertise or hit capped a go, i did it for heroic gara'jal to go for a full mastery build so i was on about 4% hit and around 3% expertise and honestly i hated it. Running in a missing a KS on the pull is a nightmare, i know you can follow it up with jab for the chi but it doesn't hit no-where near as hard which resulted in the other tank being focused which screwed up the order and on solo tanking fights it could lead to a DPS getting aggro if i get really unlucky and at the end of the day that just makes you look bad.

    Sure you might say its a small % but its a % that could wipe you on a fight where you need to pick up adds like in the last boss of HoF, if you miss on picking them up then people will start dieing.

    For the majority of people who are 'casuals' or aren't bothered about min maxing won't be at the caps, heck the majority of players won't even read these forums let alone read up on how to tank or reforge or gem for a Brewmaster and it doesn't make much of a difference for them because their the people that everyone hates healing in LFR or heroics so most people would prefer to reach the expertise hard cap and the 2550 hit to completely get rid of that small % of wiping on a really good heroic progress pull that could mean the difference between wiping or killing it.

    Also i would much prefer to be pulling a decent amount of dps instead of maybe gaining slightly more survivablity and lets face it in the end it is a chi loss most of the time for when Power Strikes doesn't proc so when things do go tits up and you have to chi wave a bit more or help out with the healing where you can to stop people from dieing you have the extra chi.

    Plus at the end of the day when you press KS you know it'll hit and you know you will have the chi.
    Last edited by Nurhlag; 2012-11-12 at 01:19 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Do I need to quote the entirety of post #45...or can you scroll up and see it yourself?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 08:14 PM ----------



    How do they yield energy and chi, explain.
    Why would I need to explain something so basic? You are the 5 man destroyer who is here to educate us with your amazing ability to copy paste info from another source.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 01:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post

    Every 600 crit gives you 1% crit, which will give you roughly 1 extra white attack crit every 2 minutes, and (100-miss/dodge/parry)/100 yellow attack crit every 2 minutes. Since both our white and yellow attacks can crit, 1% crit gives pretty much exactly 1% increase in dps, slightly less if not hit/exp capped...but still more than haste. The reason for this is the majority of our damage is yellow, and yellow attacks use a 2-roll system, so that hit/exp give more value to crit for yellow. That 1% crit gives you roughly 3 seconds of Elusive Brew over 2 min, making it roughly equal to .75% dodge averaged out, but if played properly is worth slightly more as you can anticipate the swing timer and have EB up just prior to the hit.
    1% crit =/= 1% dps increase
    A huge part of our dmg is passive
    Time a EB for a swing, rofl...ok, gl with that. Even if it were possible, whether it would be optimal or not would still be up in the air depending completely on the bosses atk speed.

    Why even read the rest? 1 paragraph was too much
    Last edited by Obamatheone; 2012-11-12 at 01:28 AM.

  12. #52
    It's weird how you don't have math to disprove his claims. As a matter of fact, the only support for your argument is that you keep insinuating that he is an idiot and therefore not credible.

  13. #53
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    Why would I need to explain something so basic? You are the 5 man destroyer who is here to educate us with your amazing ability to copy paste info from another source.
    Yea...saying I refuse to show math after multiple posts full of my own math...just gonna stop listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    1% crit =/= 1% dps increase
    A huge part of our dmg is passive
    This doesn't even make sense. Passive damage?

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    It's weird how you don't have math to disprove his claims.
    I am not stating that hit/exp are ideal, especially not exp to 15%. I actually said that was wrong long ago, and was criticized because it was differing from the established norm and sim.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 01:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Yea...saying I refuse to show math after multiple posts full of my own math...just gonna stop listening.



    This doesn't even make sense. Passive damage?
    Math is not looked at favorably here for some reason, idk what it is.
    This is like the anti-theorycrafting forum.

    You have never heard the term passive dmg? Its anything that isn't actually initiated by the player, like auto-atk.
    Last edited by Obamatheone; 2012-11-12 at 01:42 AM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    You have never heard the term passive dmg? Its anything that isn't actually initiated by the player, like auto-atk.
    So do auto attacks not crit in your game? I'm confused, seeing as how they can in mine.

  16. #56
    I'd like to go on record saying that, while I think Chuupag is heavily overestimating the importance of long term over short term gains, his math was all technically correct and anyone that argues otherwise is being quite silly. You're not going to find math that says that hit/expertise will give more long term benefits than pure haste because it just doesn't exist.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    So do auto attacks not crit in your game? I'm confused, seeing as how they can in mine.
    Sigh... Crit diminishes the more you have.

    0 -> 1% crit
    100 dmg

    100 * 1 = 100

    100 * .99 + 100 * 0.01 *2 = 101
    101/100 = 1% gain

    99->100% crit

    2* 1 * 100 = 200

    2*100 * .99 + 100 * 0.01 = 199
    200/199 = 0.5% gain

    Maybe you should hold onto the sarcastic card till you know wtf you are talking about.


    Here is another way to explain it.
    What is the #1 secondary stat priority of WW? It sure as hell ain't crit > hit/exp 7.5%

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    Sigh... Crit diminishes the more you have.

    0 -> 1% crit
    100 dmg

    100 * 1 = 100

    100 * .99 + 100 * 0.01 *2 = 101
    101/100 = 1% gain

    99->100% crit

    2* 1 * 100 = 200

    2*100 * .99 + 100 * 0.01 = 199
    200/199 = 0.5% gain

    Maybe you should hold onto the sarcastic card till you know wtf you are talking about.


    Here is another way to explain it.
    What is the #1 secondary stat priority of WW? It sure as hell ain't crit > hit/exp 7.5%
    What does this have to do with your comment about passive damage? I don't recall anyone questioning that 1% crit is not a 1% damage increase.

  19. #59
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obamatheone View Post
    Sigh... Crit diminishes the more you have.

    0 -> 1% crit
    100 dmg

    100 * 1 = 100

    100 * .99 + 100 * 0.01 *2 = 101
    101/100 = 1% gain

    99->100% crit

    2* 1 * 100 = 200

    2*100 * .99 + 100 * 0.01 = 199
    200/199 = 0.5% gain

    Maybe you should hold onto the sarcastic card till you know wtf you are talking about.


    Here is another way to explain it.
    What is the #1 secondary stat priority of WW? It sure as hell ain't crit > hit/exp 7.5%
    This is the actual vs relative argument. I was using actual, you are using relative. I think you are stating it very poorly though.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Putting aside "min-maxing" for a moment, i am so extremely annoyed when my spells "Miss/Dodge/Parry" that i would gladly lose a big chunk of my dps/defense just to be completely rid of my spells/attacks failing to hit the target.
    This is how I feel as well. How much I hate that little weird squelchy noise!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

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