Thread: [BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them

1. I don't normally read or post here (as you can see), but this thread was a pretty interesting collections of players' points of view. I just wanted to chime in and point out that a lot of the logic utilized in this thread is faulty from a game-theorist perspective. Because this is a game involving multiple factors that alter our decisions (and not just a simulator), you should utilize backwards induction to determine the best way to gear your character for safe results.

For example, it is not exactly accurate to say that there is a 5% chance to miss 2 times in a row. After you miss once, you then have to make a whole new calculation for the next miss. For this attack you may not have time, stats may change, or a mob may go out of range...

Even at the most simple estimate, it is not accurate to say that you have x% change at any given time to miss 2 times in a row. You have X% chance to miss on any attack, and then X% chance to miss on the next attempt; so on and so forth.

2. Originally Posted by Discordance
Even at the most simple estimate, it is not accurate to say that you have x% change at any given time to miss 2 times in a row. You have X% chance to miss on any attack, and then X% chance to miss on the next attempt; so on and so forth.
Not sure where you are getting that when it comes to calculating the chance of consecutive events. Your chance to miss never changes between each event as your hit/expertise are static during a fight. So at the soft caps you have 7.5%*7.5%*7.5% = 0.000421875.

Yes every individual attack still has a 7.5% chance to miss when you look at it as individual events but the frequency of 3 attacks missing in a row are almost not worth acknowledging at the levels most BrM's run at. Went through the same thing on my DK when people would come screaming about "3 Death Strikes missing in a row and I died!". Sure it was probably the case that it happened but that is the exception not the rule so isn't good basis of using the argument as a reason to stack more expertise or eliminate a problem you experience < 1% of the time.

The only real argument is the cost of the individual missed attack(s) (most people focusing on Keg Smash specifically) and the gain you get by putting that rating instead into Haste/Crit/Mastery. My personal opinion is based as much on personal opinion as math but the above still holds true.

3. What I am "getting at" is that your way of calculating "consecutive events" is not applicable to this scenario from a game-theory perspective. These events do not happen as the result of one decision and therefor one quantitative statistic should not be utilized when deciding a [gearing] strategy.

When playing a game, certainty is by far one of the best factors in deciding how to make a decision on any given turn. The certainty in capping hit or expertise is extremely valuable on a qualitative level, even though it may theoretically have a lower quantitative value. Knowing that there is a 100% chance for an event to occur and lead to other preferable outcomes is not something you can put into a spreadsheet.

4. Originally Posted by Discordance
What I am "getting at" is that your way of calculating "consecutive events" is not applicable to this scenario from a game-theory perspective. These events do not happen as the result of one decision and therefor one quantitative statistic should not be utilized when deciding a [gearing] strategy.

When playing a game, certainty is by far one of the best factors in deciding how to make a decision on any given turn. The certainty in capping hit or expertise is extremely valuable on a qualitative level, even though it may theoretically have a lower quantitative value. Knowing that there is a 100% chance for an event to occur and lead to other preferable outcomes is not something you can put into a spreadsheet.
So what is it that you are suggesting... that considering probability has no relevance to discussing gearing? If a boss does not have any mechanics that cause problems for us, then we shouldn't consider dropping expertise because the probability of an oh-shit situation happening on our end is very low and we could get more throughput via other stats?

I'm sorry but I don't see how considering probability isn't applicable to this discussion. Nor, by the way, are there any cooldowns or procs which increase your chance to hit with abilities or melee attacks and the chance an attack will hit isn't changed due to you moving out of range or the frequency of attacks within a given timeframe. It's a calculation of the chance an attack will miss x times in a row, not a calculation of how many misses you will have per T units of time. The numbers that have been thrown out here are pretty much spot on. The only times that chance will change is if you lose your food / elixir buffs if they time out or you die (in the case of the food buff). Also I believe if your gear breaks... but these sorts of things, save the food buff, are likely to happen, and even then I repair after every wipe and am personally using agi / stam food and non-hit/expertise flasks / elixirs, depending, so in my case the probability calculations remain pretty constant.

5. No Madgod, I am not suggesting any such thing. Probability is extremely important in determining a course of action in a game. What I am asserting is that many people in this thread are incorrectly analyzing how to make decisions in a game. Hit and expertise have qualitative value that cannot be entered into a simulator, unlike crit or mastery and to properly assess their value would require a decision tree model and backwards induction.

I feel these points are all made quite clear in my posts.

6. You definitely don't have to cap hit and expertise as a Brewmaster.

However, I find it valuable to cap them. It removes RNG from resource generation. When I Keg Smash, I get 2 chi, every time (well sometimes I'm 0.3% under cap but very close to every time). When I Jab, I get 1 chi, every time.

A pleasant side effect of capping these stats is a very large dps increase, which depending on your situation can be quite valuable. Look at how much damage my auto attack did on this Will of the Emperor fight ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...756&e=2299#Amp )

To the OP, I would be careful before taking everything that a theorycrafter on Elitist Jerks says about stat priorities as a golden rule.

The best way to know how to gear is to know your own situation, level of progression and combine that with some research. High end heroic progression -> mastery is your best stat so that you don't take too large of a hit. Average group that isn't even ready for heroic raids (my guild for example) and hit/exp cap with haste/crit after works out quite well. The more haste I have the more Chi Waves I can throw out to help heal people.

7. Originally Posted by Discordance
No Madgod, I am not suggesting any such thing. Probability is extremely important in determining a course of action in a game. What I am asserting is that many people in this thread are incorrectly analyzing how to make decisions in a game. Hit and expertise have qualitative value that cannot be entered into a simulator, unlike crit or mastery and to properly assess their value would require a decision tree model and backwards induction.

I feel these points are all made quite clear in my posts.
What you're asserting has been mentioned already by many people, to an extent... that it's not simply a discussion of probability.

As well, care to show us this math, rather than just say we're wrong?

As for your posts insinuating that probability isn't relevant:

Originally Posted by Discordance
I just wanted to chime in and point out that a lot of the logic utilized in this thread is faulty from a game-theorist perspective...

For example, it is not exactly accurate to say that there is a 5% chance to miss 2 times in a row. After you miss once, you then have to make a whole new calculation for the next miss. For this attack you may not have time, stats may change, or a mob may go out of range...

Even at the most simple estimate, it is not accurate to say that you have x% change at any given time to miss 2 times in a row. You have X% chance to miss on any attack, and then X% chance to miss on the next attempt; so on and so forth.
Originally Posted by Discordance
What I am "getting at" is that your way of calculating "consecutive events" is not applicable to this scenario from a game-theory perspective.
Despite the fact that that we are calculating the probability of consecutive events in the exact way we are supposed to. The idea of the probability of something happening X times in a row is a very simple calculation, one that doesn't really take anything but multiplication, an X value for the number of consecutive events you want to calculate for, and a value for the probability of a single event happening once. As well, considering you've got two people talking to you about this, it's a pretty tidy jump of reasoning to assume that the way you wanted to convey your posts was not the way that others originally saw them. Reviewing them after this response I can tell what you meant, but without that knowledge it looked simply as if you were attacking the idea of using probability.

8. What Discordance means is that there aren't always going to be fights where it'll go 100% your way, or 100% the other way. Missing 3x in a row is bad and it sucks sure, but the likely hood it ll happen is low. Missing once and then missing again a few seconds later is, or any variation of those kinds of situations is what he is talking about (they don't kill you, but they stress your healers' mana). People here are talking about the extreme scenarios, of 3x misses or 2x misses in a row meaning quite instant death, or a clutch raid CD. However, predictable damage has a qualitative value that is important to healers. In a fight, tanks are usually the most important things out there, if they die, chances are yo'ull wipe if you don't have sufficient Brezzes, however the healers' job is to heal everyone, and they all have a finite amount of cooldowns for "oh shit" situations. Holding onto a strong cooldown (eg. LoH, Pain Supp) for the chance of a misshap on the tanks' part (RNG) costs the utility of the raid. This is all qualitative evaluation, your not being on the hardcap makes it so that you cannot gaurentee the freedom of that extra CD. That I think is what Discordance is trying to get at.

There is also the fact that if tank death is not a problem, or if the dps is a problem, or if heavy raid damage is the problem, hit/exp's value goes up qualitatively. Higher dps means more shields for the raid, chances are that most tanks recieve quite a bit of overhealing due to the nature of the role, unless youre never hitting 100% hp after sinking after a hit then you can give value to Hit/ Exp. Haste and crit might be better in the grand scheme of a 9 min fight where the everything goes well, and youve saved your healers for a couple mill on healing. However, what about those fights where you progress and are coming close to a kill, and that RNG strikes. Yea sure the chance of it happening is low, but if everyone played perfectly there would never be a wipe, people make mistakes, thats how you wipe, normally those mistakes are on the players' gameplay. This kind of death is unavoidable, it is on RNG, and because of the choice of making the life of a healer that isn't really struggling to keep you up, you may have caused unneeded stress in the encounter.

If you are talking about healing and healers not being able to keep you up, then you are also indirectly helping them by increasing your dps as it provides you with more raid utility (dps and healing), it lightens their load so they can heal you more.

If you want to talk quantitatively, then there is the notion of your exp/hit having the immeasureable (almost) value that it gives to the raid. Yes WoW is a numbers game, but people are stupid, they make stupid mistakes; there are enough mistakes that people make by themselves, and adding RNG into the mix doesn't help anyone. It might take 3 hours of attempts to get RNG you to bite you in the ass, but its still there, youve wasted an attempt, you've wasted your raids' time. What if every 25 of the raiders in the team had a RNG weakness that can cause a wipe to the raid and waste everyones' time; you'd be wiping to uncontrollable stuff quite often. We dont see healers going full throughput, I mean, if they have 40% mana at the end of the fight and dont go OOM at the burn phases, spirit should suck right? That mana there is a fallback to if things do go wrong, they are sacrificing actual throughput to ensure that they can handle the "oh shit" situation.

At the end of the day, Haste and crit has its place, and hit/exp has its place, and even mastery has its place. They are all useful for different situations, and gearing one way as the end all be all way of things isn't going to help many people, whats good for a specific group of players might be dynamite for another. Not everyone can play like a machine (which is what simulators are) and the value of a stupid mistake is handled by qualitative data rather than a quantitative one. If it wasn't we'd all be as great as Paragon.

9. Originally Posted by Ampere
To the OP, I would be careful before taking everything that a theorycrafter on Elitist Jerks says about stat priorities as a golden rule.
So because I mention the spreadsheet...all my math on posts 1, 45, and 91 don't count as my own work?

10. Originally Posted by Chuupag
So because I mention the spreadsheet...all my math on posts 1, 45, and 91 don't count as my own work?
Hmmm I didn't see the copyright icon so I'm calling dibs on them!

11. @Chuupag

Ok, so let me get this straight.

Against a level 93 mob, with 0 hit/expertise rating, you have:

7.5% chance to miss
7.5% chance to be dodged
7.5% chance to be parried

And each hit/expertise rating point gives you the exact same increase in to-hit-chance as the previous (within reasonable limits - I know going from 80% -> 81% hit is marginally more effective than 99% -> 100%).

-----

The argument is that instead of dumping those 7650 rating points into making your abilities un-missable, and putting them into say, haste, instead, you're getting slightly more chi/min for increased survivability. The math is something like:

Expertise/hit build: 6 min = 360*11 = 3960 energy for 45 keg smashes & 54 jab/expel harms = 144 chi.
Haste build: 6 min = 360*(12.98) = 4672.8 energy. 34.875 keg smashes (10.125 miss) + 3196.8 remaining energy for jabs/expel harm = 75.535 jabs = 145.285 chi

------------------

Are you really suggesting that 1.285 chi/6 min is worth missing almost a quarter of the time?

EDIT: You made a math mistake in your first post. You do indeed get around 720 additional energy stacking haste, and you took into account all the extra energy missing 10 keg smashes would cost, but you ignored all the energy that missing jabs would cost (except those you gain with the extra 720 energy).

The cost of getting off a successful jab at 0.775 hit rate is 40 + 8((0.225) + (0.225)^2 + (0.225)^3 ...) = 40+ 8*(0.225/0.775) = 42.322 energy.

Second Edit:

Ok, I realize that I'm being -slightly- unfair because expel harm always gives you a point of chi whether or not the damage misses, and if you use it once every 15 seconds, you're going to get off 24 of them which results in slightly more than 1 chi over the course of the 6 minutes.

Regardless, 1 or 2 chi/6 min is not anywhere near incentive enough to miss almost a quarter of your attacks. I'm not trying to be insulting, but you have only experienced LFR content according to your armory, and you probably don't have an idea of how important it is to never miss your threat generation skills in the first 3 seconds.

The windblade adds on Grand Empress, for example, hit plate melee classes for around 300k-400k per swing and are ridiculously deadly. Blood Legion decided to erase melee from their kill comp when they saw that a single melee player had around a 3/40 chance, or a 7.5% chance, of being insta-gibbed from a fixate.

Going with 22.5% miss rate, you're basically saying that when the adds spawn, you're fine with a the adds running off and hitting a dps about 9 times every 10 pulls (4 adds spawn on a side). No, telling dps to slow down and give you time to establish threat is not an option.

90% failure rate is unacceptable, even if it's just 1 battle rez when you have 3 available. That's more than 10 times what top raid guilds deem as unacceptable.

Personal survivability is one of the lowest priorities as a tank this expansion.

12. Originally Posted by kaiadam
Regardless, 1 or 2 chi/6 min is not anywhere near incentive enough to miss almost a quarter of your attacks. I'm not trying to be insulting, but you have only experienced LFR content according to your armory, and you probably don't have an idea of how important it is to never miss your threat generation skills in the first 3 seconds.

The windblade adds on Grand Empress, for example, hit plate melee classes for around 300k-400k per swing and are ridiculously deadly. Blood Legion decided to erase melee from their kill comp when they saw that a single melee player had around a 3/40 chance, or a 7.5% chance, of being insta-gibbed from a fixate.

Going with 22.5% miss rate, you're basically saying that when the adds spawn, you're fine with a the adds running off and hitting a dps about 9 times every 10 pulls (4 adds spawn on a side). No, telling dps to slow down and give you time to establish threat is not an option.

90% failure rate is unacceptable, even if it's just 1 battle rez when you have 3 available. That's more than 10 times what top raid guilds deem as unacceptable.

Personal survivability is one of the lowest priorities as a tank this expansion.
For one, we will always have roughly at least approximately 4% hit and 4% expertise just from our gear, so there'll be somewhat of a difference in the numbers.

Are you also counting the increased EB procs from a faster weapon swing as a benefit?

As well, how do you explain the 22.5% miss rate equaling a 90% failure to pick up adds?

13. Originally Posted by The Madgod
For one, we will always have roughly at least approximately 4% hit and 4% expertise just from our gear, so there'll be somewhat of a difference in the numbers.

Are you also counting the increased EB procs from a faster weapon swing as a benefit?

As well, how do you explain the 22.5% miss rate equaling a 90% failure to pick up adds?
4% hit/expertise - true. Although, you can also argue that there's no way you can dump all your extra stats into haste. We're just comparing the extreme two ends of the spectrum - any difference there *has* to be greater than the difference between two "realistic" extremes, and as I calculated above, the difference really isn't that large one way or the other (just regarding chi regeneration.)

I'm actually completely unconcerned with EB procs. It's just a small benefit to decrease the amount of healing your healers have to do for you. Again, in this time and age where damage taken is not very important at all, small benefit is small benefit. A much larger factor is keeping adds off of players, positioning, using cooldowns and active mitigation at appropriate times, etc.

Well, there are 4 targets (1 reaver + 3 windblades) per side. 22.5% miss * 4 = 90% chance that your keg smash will miss at least one of these adds - very rough and inaccurate math, but it's not that far off. (It's actually 1 - .775^4 = ~64% chance, my bad). And there's no way spinning crane kick on the second gcd will keep threat over your dps going all out, and they need to go all out to kill these adds by the time the phase ends. Most scenarios aren't as dire, but I wanted a dramatic example to show how even a small chance at missing magnifies.)

14. Originally Posted by kaiadam
4% hit/expertise - true. Although, you can also argue that there's no way you can dump all your extra stats into haste. We're just comparing the extreme two ends of the spectrum - any difference there *has* to be greater than the difference between two "realistic" extremes, and as I calculated above, the difference really isn't that large one way or the other (just regarding chi regeneration.)

I'm actually completely unconcerned with EB procs. It's just a small benefit to decrease the amount of healing your healers have to do for you. Again, in this time and age where damage taken is not very important at all, small benefit is small benefit. A much larger factor is keeping adds off of players, positioning, using cooldowns and active mitigation at appropriate times, etc.

Well, there are 4 targets (1 reaver + 3 windblades) per side. 22.5% miss * 4 = 90% chance that your keg smash will miss at least one of these adds - very rough and inaccurate math, but it's not that far off. (It's actually 1 - .775^4 = ~64% chance, my bad). And there's no way spinning crane kick on the second gcd will keep threat over your dps going all out, and they need to go all out to kill these adds by the time the phase ends. Most scenarios aren't as dire, but I wanted a dramatic example to show how even a small chance at missing magnifies.)
Tanking has not changed in any way in comparison to previous expansions in terms of what is most important... only that mitigation is more based on your ability to use your skills efficiently. Personal mitigation is just as important as it always has been. Hit and expertise helps with that now, and that's a big factor to getting it, but I don't ever remember a time when people argued for hit and expertise because of its help on ensuring agro on a pull. Mind, that was a while ago, but still. Completely ignoring EB procs as a benefit of haste is a willing suspension of reality in regards to the benefits of haste versus hit and expertise.

As well, you also forget that you have a taunt. That gives you plenty of time to maintain that threat.

15. The tanking paradigm has changed significantly, however. Gone are the days of massive boss damage where tanks actually had a chance of dying to normal attacks. The overarching goal of (nearly) every boss fight is to kill the enemy before it kills you, so generally the ultimate optimization results in maximum damage.

You used to go 100% survivability because the tank living = the raid not wiping = more dps. Now, the chance of the tank dying to just plain melee attacks approaches 0 - ever since cataclysm where bosses stopped swinging for half the tank's hp every hit. Thus, it's of vital importance for a tank to have solid dependable threat. The difference of one gcd of damage is vastly more important to the raid than the tank taking slightly less damage.

Sure you have a taunt. Can you guarantee that you'll pick out the one guy in the pack of 4 that your keg smash missed and taunt him before he turns and one-shots the rogue? Arguable, but the chances are really low. Can you taunt the two targets out of the 4 that your keg smash missed? No.

In either case, tank dps is significantly more of a concern than damage mitigation. Now that tanks are the highest dpsing members of the raid, their damage is of utmost importance in killing the right things at the right time, and not stacking hit/expertise is once again a serious drawback there.

16. Have you looked at post 45? B/c it breaks down point for point the benefit of hit/exp, haste, and crit in completely equal terms. I'll quote it here for simplicity.

Originally Posted by Chuupag
Every 340 hit or exp saves you 1 miss/dodge/parry white and yellow attack roughly every 2 minutes. It also increases your dps by slightly less than 1% due to the inability to overcome glancing blows. That yellow attack will be one of the following: Jab, Expel Harm, Keg Smash, Blackout Kick, or Tiger Palm. Assuming an average amount of energy regen at 12/sec will give you 1440 energy during those 2 minutes. You will have 15 KS for 600 energy, and the remaining 840 will give you 21 Jab/Expel. Giving you 51 chi in those 2 minutes (57 with Power Strikes). To keep shuffle up requires 40 of that chi, 8 for Guard, and the remaining 3 (or 9) on Purifying Brew. That seems a bit low for PB usage...so you'd probably let shuffle slip at times. So of your 120 gcds I am not going to assume perfect play, but I'll assume 100 in those 2 minutes b/c of either hesitation to TP b/c KS was coming up, movement, or not queueing up your next attack while the gcd is still going. 15 will be KS, 21 will be Jab/Expel, 20(ish) will be BoK, and the remaining 44 will be Tiger Palm. Guard and PB are not on the gcd. The chance of that 1 missed yellow attack being KS is very easy to calculate in this situation...about 15%. A missed BoK still gives shuffle...so that is just a dps loss, and a missed TP is just a dps loss as well. So for every 1% hit and exp you protect against .075 missed KS per min or .1 missed Jab/Expel per min which is really the only ones that matter. Extrapolating from that, going from 0/0 to 7.5/15 you protect against ~1.7 missed KS a min and ~2.5 missed Jab/Expel a min. The question then becomes can haste and/or crit make up for that.

Every 425 haste gives you 1% haste, which gives you roughly 1 extra white attack every 2 minutes and increases your energy regen by .11, it has no effect on yellow attacks. Since white attacks make up a small portion of our dps, 1% haste gives much less than a 1% increase in dps. It also takes almost 6 minutes for that 1% haste to give us another Jab. The 1 extra white attack gives on average .75 seconds of Elusive Brew over 2 min, assuming an average 25% crit.

Every 600 crit gives you 1% crit, which will give you roughly 1 extra white attack crit every 2 minutes, and (100-miss/dodge/parry)/100 yellow attack crit every 2 minutes. Since both our white and yellow attacks can crit, 1% crit gives pretty much exactly 1% increase in dps, slightly less if not hit/exp capped...but still more than haste. The reason for this is the majority of our damage is yellow, and yellow attacks use a 2-roll system, so that hit/exp give more value to crit for yellow. That 1% crit gives you roughly 3 seconds of Elusive Brew over 2 min, making it roughly equal to .75% dodge averaged out, but if played properly is worth slightly more as you can anticipate the swing timer and have EB up just prior to the hit.

So in the end, in terms of stat points, 1% hit/exp = .8% haste = .57% crit. So the compairison breaks down to this:

Is insurance against

.075 KS/min(1chi, 8 energy, 1gcd per 13min20sec) + .1 Jab/min(8 energy, 1 gcd per 10min) + ~.9% dps

worth more than either

1 chi every 7.5 min + .6 seconds of EB (~.15% dodge) + ~.2% dps

or

1.7 seconds of EB (~.43% dodge) + between .6% and 1% dps (depending on hit/exp)

Worth noting is that haste and crit compliment each other, meaning those values shore each other up the more you get of them, hit/exp do not have such a relationship with the others.

Here is all the math, you decide for yourself.

Let's try not to jump from page 1 to page 7 without reading the intervening dicussion.

17. Originally Posted by kaiadam
The tanking paradigm has changed significantly, however. Gone are the days of massive boss damage where tanks actually had a chance of dying to normal attacks. The overarching goal of (nearly) every boss fight is to kill the enemy before it kills you, so generally the ultimate optimization results in maximum damage.

You used to go 100% survivability because the tank living = the raid not wiping = more dps. Now, the chance of the tank dying to just plain melee attacks approaches 0 - ever since cataclysm where bosses stopped swinging for half the tank's hp every hit. Thus, it's of vital importance for a tank to have solid dependable threat. The difference of one gcd of damage is vastly more important to the raid than the tank taking slightly less damage.

Sure you have a taunt. Can you guarantee that you'll pick out the one guy in the pack of 4 that your keg smash missed and taunt him before he turns and one-shots the rogue? Arguable, but the chances are really low. Can you taunt the two targets out of the 4 that your keg smash missed? No.

In either case, tank dps is significantly more of a concern than damage mitigation. Now that tanks are the highest dpsing members of the raid, their damage is of utmost importance in killing the right things at the right time, and not stacking hit/expertise is once again a serious drawback there.
So in other words tanks are basically DPS who take more damage. I apologize, but I think that's just bullcrap. Sure, tank damage means more now, since we can actually dish it out to a good degree, but that does NOT mean it's more important than our actual job, which is to mitigate damage. And if your tanks are doing the most damage in your raid (excluding certain fights were we do have an advantage), then you should check on your DPS' performance.

Also depending on how close they are, yes you can taunt more than one with your statue.

18. http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/#7vfvnr

Notice that brewmasters are a comfy 6% higher in damage than the top dps spec and about 15% more than the average dps spec. Vengeance is sort of broken atm. Tanks do outdamage everything else to a fairly stupid degree.

I'm more or less done here, my viewpoint is clear. I have raided and killed every heroic mode Blizzard has released so far as current content except for Grand Empress(and she's going down this week), usually in both 10 and 25, tanking most of it. My experience, over (quite literally) thousands of wipes on cutting edge content is that: screw damage taken, we need more DPS. When you're able to 2-heal heroic 25m Ragnaros, or 3-4 heal heroic 25m Garjal, and considering that tank damage in either situation is less than 10% of total raid damage, trying to take slightly less damage is almost a laughably insignificant optimization. Feel free to disagree - it's not as if the worst reforged brewmaster is vastly inferior to the best reforged BrM. By the time the majority of raiders clear content, you don't need to min/max anyway.

19. Originally Posted by kaiadam
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/#7vfvnr

Notice that brewmasters are a comfy 10% higher than all other specs in damage over the top dps specs. Vengeance is sort of broken atm. Tanks -do- outdamage dps specs to a fairly stupid degree.

I'm more or less done here, my viewpoint is clear. I have raided and killed every heroic mode Blizzard has released so far as current content except for Grand Empress(and she's going down this week), usually in both 10 and 25, tanking most of it. My experience, over (quite literally) thousands of wipes on cutting edge content is that: screw damage taken, we need more DPS. When you're able to 2-heal heroic 25m Ragnaros, or 3-4 heal heroic 25m Garjal, and considering that tank damage in either situation is less than 10% of total raid damage, trying to take slightly less damage is almost a laughably insignificant optimization. Feel free to disagree - it's not as if the worst reforged brewmaster is vastly inferior to the best reforged BrM. By the time the majority of raiders clear content, you don't need to min/max anyway.
I'd love a link to your personal parses that show that we're always a solid 10% higher than other specs, because taking a much better look at this, we're superior on cleave fights, to such a degree that it messes with the overall data. Otherwise, we're relatively low. We're good, as far as tanks are concerned, but we're not better than the majority of DPS specs.

Gearing for DPS as a tank is fine... once you've gotten to the point where you can comfortably survive an encounter. If that's what you're suggesting, then we're in agreement... but gearing for DPS OVER mitigation? Not in my book.

20. This is rather foolish. Perhaps this napkin math may apply if you're fighting a target dummy or Gara'jal but it's not realistic in any other situation. I won't fault you for it because your experience is confined solely to LFR but I must say that simply because reforging won't matter for most of the playerbase doesn't mean we need 7 page threads of misinformation.

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