Help me out with the details. It's safe to post here.
There is like 30 raiding guilds in RIFT. Why the hell would a guild need to exploit?
"A life with no changes can’t be called life. You can only call it experience." Lelouch Vi Britannia.
“Being human totally sucks most of the time. Videogames are the only thing that make life bearable.” Ernest Cline.
On the one hand you have Trion releasing broken content as usual and on the other you have people taking advantage of it,the friendly mallard must be in tears by now.
i'll just get my popcorn ready for when the next inevitable public apology thread pops up.
However, the precedent has been set countless times. If something seems questionable, you ask the raid developers to confirm.
In literally every case where Trion revoked a kill or banned individuals the actions in question were not discussed with developers, not brought to their attention until after the fact. In this specific example, several members of Coriolis had access to raid developers on Skype. None of them have the right to claim "well, we didn't have a way of contacting devs" or "devs ignored us." When Apoth's Jinoscoth kill got revoked, all they had to do before using that tactic was ask Anony if it was fine. He would have responded very swiftly, as was my experience with him during progression.
"Exploit", in the end becomes a very subjective matter. But the final authority on an acceptable strategy is the raid team. And Coriolis (along with every other guild branded exploiters) had ample opportunity to discuss their strategy with the developers. I simply don't buy any argument that feigns ignorance or thinking something is ok without contacting devs.
edit: Per the associated reddit thread, one of the members states he thought the strategy was 50/50, as in 50% acceptable, 50% chance it's not. And yet they still didn't ask the developers.
The only reason for not discussing a suspected exploit (especially when you acknowledge it as 50% chance of being disallowed) is to ensure you kill the boss using the strategy before it gets hotfixed. Aka blatant exploiting.
If you watched our streams before, in the 3-4 hour we only have one 5 min break if were lucky, doing ready checks IS FORBIDDEN - after a wipe we mass res, we buff and we pull. Hikos made sure we make the most of our 6-8 hour raid a week to get things done.
Waiting for a dev to reply 1-3 am on a weekend is probably not the best use of their limited time to raid if they want that NA 1st. Calling off their raid for that day is already 50% of their raid hours. You cant even compare the situation to Apoth because even if they take a 2 hour break for a dev to reply they still have about what? 10 hours to raid? 40 hours for the whole week?
I havent talked to Hikos or anyone in cori about this, but this is what 1st came to my mind when i read about this.
EDIT: So i just heard that Trinity and Fires of Heaven called it quits before the cori ban. Topofrift says they only have 9 guilds doing their newest raid now its down to 7 ¯\(°_o)/¯ what are they doing lol
Last edited by Yizu; 2016-06-04 at 06:12 AM.
If it is something like this, which is very clearly unintended, then I don't see how anyone could ever be 50/50 on it. Its obviously an exploit.
Ahovv would probably fill u in on his defense.
Another one i remember is the Akylios in the rehashed HK, do you really think the devs intend for everyone to do it with 2 cabs cooridating stuns on the clusterfuck of adds for the whole 15 mins? Im pretty sure Apotheosis did not even receive a go signal for that one, but it would be pretty embarrassing for the devs to revoke that kill 3 weeks after we discovered how they did it. Dealing with the adds in t1 gear is impossible and they killed it within the week or 2 that rehashed raid was released?
Threngar not doing any mechanics 50/50 of the time? How many times i pugged that raid with him not doing his mechanics. Exploit or not?
I could go on how many unintended exploits the whole rift community has been using on dungeons and raids. And your asking how can something in rift be 50/50 ¯\(°_o)/¯
Im pretty sure that ban was personal, if i was a Rift dev and this this arrogant streamer goes on and on and on and on about how shit I am on doing my job, and how shit my game is, Im definitely gonna ban the fuck of everyone in your guild, but thats me lol
Last edited by Yizu; 2016-06-04 at 08:12 PM.
If being able to CC them was unintentional, then thats on the Dev team. Using CC on them however isn't doing anything that the game rules don't allow.
I admit I'm not into raiding anymore, but I've done plenty of NTE's and not once have I seen anything in Rift that made me say "thats clearly not ment to work that way". Probably the closest I've seen is being able to walk around most of the trash mobs in Glacial Maw, but that happens in every open area dungeon in every MMO ever created. If theres a away to skip trash, people are going to take it.I could go on how many unintended exploits the whole rift community has been using on dungeons and raids. And your asking how can something in rift be 50/50 ¯\(°_o)/¯
Anyway, the "50/50 vs 100% sure" is irrelevant. You guys had the intelligence to realize something might not be behaving correctly, and yet decided it would be a waste of time to ask before using the strategy. You know what? When we asked about our Crucia strategy, if we were told it was an exploit we wouldn't have done it. Is having to constantly ask about strategies an annoying process? Sure. But in literally every case where someone got a kill revoked for exploiting, they simply did not discuss the matter with the devs beforehand. Or even worse, they got told not to do it and did it anyway.
If you want to find something principled to bitch about, you would look for inconsistency from developers. You know, like when Apoth had their Izkinra enrage fixed while we bashed our heads against it being told we were simply failing the enrage. Or how about Trinity being told Panacea is ok on Binding of Maelforge but we were told something different? That's a legitimate complaint. Your situation is not.
There are plenty of raid bosses both in wow and rift that revolve around that strategy, but come on, its almost 3 MINUTES of doing nothing and skip a whole phase where the raid had to do some special mechanic. EVERYONE NOT IN REKT thinks the dev you asked did not fully understand the extent of what you were going to do and what it would look like, but since they already said yes they had to stand behind what they told you. People are not stupid, it looked like it was not intended to be done that way. I still remember the thread and the only ones defending that strat were the devs and the people in raid. We do not know each other personally but you were pretty popular in crossevents, and im sure that if it was trinity who did that you would bitch all over that shit.
The times I've complained about Trinity are a result of their clear actions. Did you know a group of them sent mass e-mails to Trion employees in attempts to ban Vendetta members over our usage of Defend the Fallen reset on Binding of Maelforge? Even though it was an approved strategy? That's the type of shit only someone bitter enough like Deew would do. Or Deew being a gigantic fucking hypocrite. Back when Addiction killed Volan first, Deew was salty and just brushed the whole thing off as "lots of time spent." When Deew finally nabs some world firsts (the joke bosses of Tyrant's Forge like Pumpkin and Johan), he gets all excited and happy and proud of his guild. So these things matter when he does it, but don't matter when anyone else does it. He's a complete joke.
I don't recall ever calling their strategies an exploit. You may be confusing me with Plastic, who claimed their Abominus tactics were an exploit. When I moved to Vendetta, we ran the original strategy at first, solved it, and then used the same one Trinity was using to avoid ocular blast. It was simply how the phases were scripted; not an exploit. You just needed a sufficient amount of DPS.
edit: also, your claim of us "skipping a phase" just goes to show you don't understand Mech Crucia. We failed the phase, and the 99% hp debuff would have occurred just after our kill. This combined with her pulsing aoe damage would have resulted in an immediate raid wipe. We were literally two seconds from wiping. We failed the polarity phase. We didn't skip it. Your misunderstanding is quite clear.
Ok, whatevr Ahov
But i stand by what I said about the perma ban being personal. Everytime they stream, they voice their opinions about how shitty the developers of the game nowadays, chat discussing whos the skinniest dev, releasing raids full of bugs, and the only reason why they log on is to play with each other. Which was true for me that's why i quit the game in the 1st place, i tried to come back twice and even if I really really miss raiding and pvp with Hikos and the rest of them, it was just not worth it, the state of the game is really that bad. Id prefer to login once a month to casually play it or jump on TS.
On that Herecius (the exploited boss) kill video i watched on twitch, a minute before it died, trunks was going on about how he only login to play with the guild and the opportunity to complain how shit the game is. And after the kill they wer just all laughing about the boss and how shit the raid was. Im 99% sure thats what triggered the decision for a perma ban, it pushed a few buttons on ocho anony etc
Last edited by Yizu; 2016-06-05 at 05:34 AM.
There is a potential issue of filtering bias. For example, in Addiction we had a member who was permabanned for bypassing his forum ban on multiple accounts. However, when several members of a certain guild violated this rule and it was brought to Trion's attention, they ignored it until it occurred myriad times. I suspect this is because the guild in question became the primary testing guild, and they didn't want to lose feedback. The truth is unclear as full evidence never surfaced. So yes, perhaps they chose to handle the same issue in different, unfair ways.
But again, your best claim would be "well, other people exploited and were not banned." As long as that is the best claim, it's not one you can expect Trion to be sympathetic to.
Every top guild bitches about incompetent devs and horrible, bugged content. Coriolis was not special in that regard. So if you believe they targeted you specifically for that, you would be mistaken.
Stumbled upon something Deew-cy! Figured since u love the drama il post it here =)
OMG i havent played that game in almost a year, why am i suddenly intrigued by this now
EDIT: Hurry and read it before cup does what she does best
Last edited by Yizu; 2016-06-05 at 05:47 PM.
Anyway the new one can be found >>HERE<< I'm not trying to promote the subreddit,it contains material pertinent to this topic which could be of interest so thought it may be appreciated.
So far seems like a lot of shitposting in that subreddit. Glanced through a few threads and didn't see anything of value. I'll lurk for a while but don't have high expectations for it.
It's funny too, because I used the same email (like [email protected], that nice feature gmail has) and was using the same IP address, and using the exact same posting style, and went on for well over a year without being banned again on the forums. It was only once said guild complained that I was allowed to post on another account (because everyone knew it was me) that Trino decided to start "enforcing" that rule -- but when you pointed out blatant forum rule violations made by people or that other people were doing the same thing, they basically ignored it. The last like 5 accounts I made to bypass the ban didn't make a single post, I was simply sending messages to the devs since the official forums was the only way you were allowed to appeal a ban (even though a ban made it impossible to send PMs, forcing you to create a new account) and asked for an appeal even under extreme concession from myself, including apology. This was all met with meaningless smokey "maybes" from that female who was the CM at the time, and then I was permanently banned for reporting posts on an account that made 0 posts. I was reporting blatant trolling/flaming that was far worse than what got me banned originally. And then the forum CoC was updated to include punishments on ban evasion and how your in-game account could be permanently banned for violating forum rules.
In a couple of occasions, people who got permanent forum bans for doing far worse than what I did got them reverted, and people who received bans in-game got those reverted as well by simply apologizing for their behavior publicly, an option I was never given (not that what I did was actually bad, it impacted 0 people and basically nobody knew about it except Addiction). Walsingham (a previous member of the community team) was playing in Addiction after he left Trion and confirmed that I was banned because people at Trion didn't like me and that he could probably get them to unban me by calling in favors.
But because it was months after our kill, Trion decided it was fine, so whatever. Everyone used that strat, every kill after that point was using that strat. Nobody ever killed it by doing the mechanic that was clearly intended (why else would the robots exist). If we had asked Anony/whoever during progression if we could do that (if we noticed it or tried to just burn the boss and lived long enough to see blast wouldn't be cast) I'm 100% confident they'd have patched the fight and said no. But Trion isn't going to leave a boss basically unkillable for all but 1 guild. Blizzard wouldn't do that either. I don't think any company has the balls these days to do such a thing.
What happened on Crucia was that we were working on the boss and nobody fucking understood how the phase transitions worked. We had a few ideas and spent pulls testing them (because the boss was completely trivial until the laser wall phase and dealing with that debuff afterwards). We figured out that the phase would only change after a certain ability was cast and under a certain boss health %. We still did every single mechanic in the fight, it's just that because she'd spend more and more time before doing the ability that would precede a phase transition that we could insert more time before the lightning wall phase to give us a window to burn her to 0%. That DPS check was failed, they were supposed to skip that phase entirely and just kill the boss (and that's what we told the devs would happen, and they said it was okay, mainly because they didn't think it was possible to do enough DPS to kill her in that window). The DPS required in that window was higher than the DPS required to kill her and to kill the mini boss after Pumpkin, for example, so it wasn't like "oh lol mechanic is gone" it was like "we'll do this hard thing instead of that hard thing." Apotheosys did it just to try it out and managed to hit the DPS check and kill the boss. Vendetta/Rekt failed the DPS check and had a few seconds to kill her before her pulsing AoE wiped the raid. Most (all?) other guilds didn't have the DPS required to do that strategy, so it wasn't like a "just do this and you get a free kill."
Look at WoW. Invulns completely disable mechanics. It's why Blizzard has to design mechanics that penetrate invulns. Like Xhul's Black Hole mechanic. But at the same time, empowered chains can be completely cheesed if they target someone with an invuln (hunters/mages) which completely trivializes the fight during progression, especially at 715-717 as it was intended. The snapback damage is ENORMOUS and requires huge coordination and healing to deal with (everyone ran 2 heals on that fight because the only healing was the last 20% and snapback, which they just trivialized). Things like that were often considered exploits in Rift. Just using an ability completely disables that mechanic. Completely. It's gone. That's where the line differs between these two games.
The reason I still don't like the Abom pinning thing is because the DPS required to get him to 5% was a complete joke. You gave nothing up for it. Your tanks would take the damage from the council members anyway, so you didn't take more damage (less, in fact, because blast required you to group up which meant your whole raid was likely going to take a hit from some AoE). So doing something that cost you nothing, that was very easy (like hitting an invuln) completely disabled a mechanic, *the* mechanic. You just moved your Abom burn from the end of the fight to the beginning and it essentially trivialized that whole phase. We spent so many fucking pulls trying to time the shields and dealing with buggy shields not protecting people. If we didn't have to deal with that mechanic we'd have killed the boss the first fucking night we got to the last platform after they nerfed the drone damage. That's the kind of trivialization that really crosses that line. What happened on Crucia was only doable by 2 or 3 guilds, it wasn't easier, it didn't trivialize the fight, so I understand why Trion didn't care.
Things like using beacons to intercept a 1-shot mechanic, or druid pets to tank a boss that has an AoE cleave (which pets are immune to) that was difficult to deal with so you can run more DPS and overcome a very hard DPS check. Things like standing out of LoS so that a mechanic doesn't trigger, things like purging a pillar so a mechanic gets disabled. Those are minor things that trivialize fights. Those are exploits. And those are common in WoW, which is sad.
Last edited by Plastkin; 2016-06-18 at 10:26 PM.