Subterfuge.. is it living up to its potential?

[Raldazzar]

Hi,

I just wanted to get some discussion going about this talent, I really was excited for it pre expansion, conceptually it sounded awesome. even when our stealth was broken with AOE's.. we got our openers out. and openers would be truly punishing. however in the grand scheme of things, Ive found it to be rather dissapointing.

I think one thing I expected was for it to switch my bar back, after the initial opener. so we get the benefit of stealth, whilst being able to set up our first finisher with ease. now, I'm aware through complex (or easy, Im dumb) UI changes, you could work around this. but I find it very inconvinient at present.

Would you find it easier to use, or be inclined to use it more, if it paged back to your normal bar after the initial opener? It just seems to feel clunky, as once you have done an opener, you have to WAIT for energy ticks before you can even do another move (which I'm assuming would 90% of the time be an ambush?) unless you roll a CS into a garrote, making it feel very lackluster. I think it could do with some love A'la Nightstalker, maybe if it stayed with its current function, but reduced the energy of your openers whilst under its effects by 20.

Would something like that make you more inclined to take the talent?

[Deleted]

I've personally not used anything other than Shadow Focus, when it comes to the first tier.

[Sionorra]

I think the primary power of this talent is seen in 5s and RBGs, if the enemy healers in an RBG are closely stacked I can garrote all 3 of them in the opening of the fight without breaking steath, or of course i could stun a couple melee who were starting to burst. You get the idea. It isnt a skill free talent like it looks like from a distance, using it to full potential can be very difficult but very rewarding.

[Guns]

Perhaps with less bugs, it would have been more popular. I thought it sounded awesome as well. After using it and getting pulled out of stealth numerous times in bad places... I gave up on it

I think the primary power of this talent is seen in 5s and RBGs, if the enemy healers in an RBG are closely stacked I can garrote all 3 of them in the opening of the fight without breaking steath, or of course i could stun a couple melee who were starting to burst. You get the idea. It isnt a skill free talent like it looks like from a distance, using it to full potential can be very difficult but very rewarding.

I understand what you are saying.
Other people have said the same thing - as well as adding nerve strike to provide epic peels, etc.
It sounds great on paper.

In game, its extremely situational and the bugs really overshadow the potential usefulness imo.
Now, theres nothing wrong with having a situational talent.
But in comparison to shadow focus - its a free opener, no matter what situation you are in.

[Raldazzar]

I agree fully with what you are saying, it is fantastic on paper. in theory it lets us set up each fight the way we want, on our terms, technically.. even if flared or so.

but it really doesnt work like that, I feel it needs some love, in the same way nightstalker got some love when it was well, useless.

what would they have to change, to make you take it, and im thinking more pvp based here, since in pve, the other two are clear leaders

[Deleted]

I agree fully with what you are saying, it is fantastic on paper. in theory it lets us set up each fight the way we want, on our terms, technically.. even if flared or so.

but it really doesnt work like that, I feel it needs some love, in the same way nightstalker got some love when it was well, useless.

what would they have to change, to make you take it, and im thinking more pvp based here, since in pve, the other two are clear leaders

Well, Nightstalker could really need some more loving, to be honest. It's just not that useful as a talent, even after the buff. As it is right now, Shadow Focus is just too powerful.

[Deleted]

As it is right now, Shadow Focus is just too powerful.

Shhh, not so loud. You know the next step is nerfing Shadow Focus to oblivion instead of buffing the other two talents to match it's strength.

[Raldazzar]

yes, that is something we have to be careful of, its not that shadow focus is op. its that the other two are underpowered by comparrison!

for me, as I said originally, a 20 energy reduction on everything done whilst in stealth/subterfuge would make it a much more valid vhoice for pvp

[Deleted]

Why would anyone use that broken ability, it brakes your stealth randomly, why the hell would you risk it, its broken literally. What else we got? a free ability every 2 mins, great, innovative design, ground braking game changing design, superb superb degisn.. a free ability every 2 mins, nice. What else some movement speed while in stealth some damage on our openers (not shadowdance, not shadowmeld). TBH none of these choices can make or brake pvp atm, its does not matter honestly, a free opener is the least useless and its only once every 2 mins, and you gotta blow vanish to use it.

Imo the only way we gonna fix rogue pvp is shadowstep baseline and with no cd, only an energy cost(low). there is just to much cc in the game. They will either have to remove some cc snares traps and slows knockbacks, or they will have to give us some insane movement buff, problem i am having is not being able to stay on a target.

oh and that bloody halo needs a range nerf

[Raldazzar]

I feel the first tree would be more balanced if.

Nightstalker - Increases movement speed by 20% whilst stealthed aswell as increases the damage of openers whilst in a 'stealthed' state (reduced to 10% bonus dmg during shadow dance)
Subterfuge - Your Stealth breaks 3 sec after dealing or receiving hostile actions, rather than doing so immediately, whilst stealthed, all openers energy cost reduced by 20
Shadow Focus - Abilities no longer cost Energy while you are stealthed.

I personally, would struggle to pick a clear winner out of those 3. for pvp anyway

[shadowboy]

I agree fully with what you are saying, it is fantastic on paper. in theory it lets us set up each fight the way we want, on our terms, technically.. even if flared or so.

but it really doesnt work like that, I feel it needs some love, in the same way nightstalker got some love when it was well, useless.

what would they have to change, to make you take it, and im thinking more pvp based here, since in pve, the other two are clear leaders

"Was" useless? Once you hit 90, nightstalker is still useless. It's useful 15-89.999, though. Nightstalker would be more useful if it basically mimiced master of subtlety (that passive alone is problematic for sub, imo--it should be incorporated into night stalker and sub rebalanced around not having it).

[jtstormrage]

In my experience, for control and survivability, Subterfuge is best. But for Burst Shadow Focus is really nice.

[celinamuna]

Fairly sure that you can mount up without leaving stealth with subterfuge which you can't do with shadow focus. This Makes it worth it in my opinion (unless i was just failing every single time i attempted to mount with shadow focus in the past)

[Coldkil]

It's extremely good as Sub. There are a lot of combinations available and great synergy with the spec passives.

Very lackluster for other specs anyway - Shadow Focus is just better. For PvP, they both have their uses, and i assume a quck vanish-free CS or Garrote is great, right?

[Carrastealth]

I feel the first tree would be more balanced if.

Nightstalker - Increases movement speed by 20% whilst stealthed aswell as increases the damage of openers whilst in a 'stealthed' state (reduced to 10% bonus dmg during shadow dance)
Subterfuge - Your Stealth breaks 3 sec after dealing or receiving hostile actions, rather than doing so immediately, whilst stealthed, all openers energy cost reduced by 20
Shadow Focus - Abilities no longer cost Energy while you are stealthed.

I personally, would struggle to pick a clear winner out of those 3. for pvp anyway

The reason is because you can look at a lot of trees in the rogue talents and you could say "You know.. all 3 of these abilities could/should be baseline and I wouldn't be OP in the least."

In the 90 tier you could make all 3 abilities baseline and could anyone really say you're OP?

heck in the first tier you could make all 3 of those baseline(with the exception of making shadow focus the first attack out of stealth to not cost energy, with subterfuge active) and it wouldn't be OP. That's why :P

[Verain]

I don't know why everyone isn't talking about how ambush should not cost 60 energy. Ambush is balanced around 40 energy, and even then is not amazing. At 60 energy it should give you a mocha frappucino and a blowjob.

[Firebert]

Subterfuge is amazing in PvP for all specs, especially with the Stealth glyph.

Just vanished? Got a DoT on you? Stealth on every tick, you're visible for 2s and stealthed for 3s.

I use Subterfuge in PvE (as I'm not in a raiding guild and I prefer Cheap to Garrote to Ambush on stunnable mobs to Ambushing/Mutilating from stealth).