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  1. #221
    Mechagnome Kagdar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    You are aware of the definition of a strain is in virological terms, yes?

    By not getting the shots you are increasing the risk to yourself and others.
    If the flu shot was actually super effective i would. You already have plenty of cases in this topic only of ppl that got the vaccine and still got the flu. And i know you can't get the flu via the vaccine.
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    Are you tired of focusing your time and energy on projects and activities without seeing any positive results? Try…not giving a f*ck!!
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I kinda feel like the autism rates going up is due in large part to increased diagnosis. It seems like any kid who is just a little bit weird is diagnosed as autistic.
    You're right, I think; this is the generally accepted explanation. I'm not sure it covers the issue entirely, and I don't want to chase away people that want to study whether there's an actual increase in rate of occurrence, but it's pretty clear that changing diagnosis criteria has the biggest effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Also, people who are like "I don't get flu shots because I kept getting the flu after I got them" you should know that a flu shot cannot cause an infection, it uses dead flu cells (at least the ones around here, some used to use small amounts of weakened live virus). You should also know that there's no such thing as the 24-hour flu or a stomach flu. There is, however, a thing known as foodborne illness. It's not one disease itself but an array of illness caused by many different bacterium and viruses. Even if you kill what's in the food, it could have still left behind toxins that would cause symptoms life vomiting.
    This is a good explanation. I wish I could get people to stop using "flu" interchangeably with "a cold".

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't really know what you're driving at. Most people (including me) are well aware that the young, the elderly, and the immunocompromised are at substantially increased risk. In the case of the '09 outbreak, this was actually fairly unusual to see so many healthy, prime of their life people die, that's correct. My point wasn't that every single person is at equal risk, it's that people who are in the lower risk groups believing that they can't die from influenza are off base. They're the equivalent of a 42 year old female driver saying, "the risk of me dying is quite low, especially relative to other groups, so I don't be wearing a seat belt".
    My point was that you were using a bad example to argue for flu vaccination. Also, putting on a seatbelt doesn't require you to go anywhere or do anything involved, so it's not comparable to getting vaccinated.

    Except for, you know, the times that it is. Also, it's a remarkably selfish attitude to say, "I probably won't die from this, so I'm fine with increasing the risk to others who could die from it".
    Yeah, people are selfish. Not really news or anything. I'm basically just saying why it's not a big deal for people to them, and if your argument comes down to reducing the risk to others, not a lot of people are going to care. I think it's also perfectly understandable to hold such a point of view. People are busy enough dealing with their own shit. Plus, having to get a vaccination every year makes people skeptical about their effectiveness. Also understandable for somebody who isn't educated on the subject.

    Now, if we came out with a vaccine that would somehow protect against influenza every year at comparable efficacy to the polio vaccine, then people would be all on board with it.

    Example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagdar View Post
    If the flu shot was actually super effective i would. You already have plenty of cases in this topic only of ppl that got the vaccine and still got the flu. And i know you can't get the flu via the vaccine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This is a good explanation. I wish I could get people to stop using "flu" interchangeably with "a cold".
    Yeah, both infections are on the tame side of things in the eyes of the majority, so that won't happen any time soon.
    Last edited by Bergtau; 2012-11-11 at 04:01 PM.

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  4. #224
    Mechagnome Kagdar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Spectral I got a question you might have an answer to.

    I've been told that the flu virus mutates or changes each season. How are scientists able to predict how it will mutate, and which vaccination will work on it? Will it ever get to a point where we can no longer create a vaccination because it has mutated beyond or capabilities?

    I've also heard that the avian flu is like 3 mutations from becoming an epidemic that could kill hundreds of million. Any truth?
    Yes the flu virus mutate each seasons. The vaccine actually tries to target the common patern in the different flu virus, but it's such a small portion of the virus that it's not super effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by JonLajoie
    Are you tired of focusing your time and energy on projects and activities without seeing any positive results? Try…not giving a f*ck!!
    Quote Originally Posted by JonLajoie
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  5. #225
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    No I don't get flu shots, but most of my family does due to Diabetes, etc.

    Yes, the Jenny McCarthy vaccination-autism conspiracists are perfectly welcome to contract and fall to every single disease and condition that vaccinations have protected and spared us from since their conception.

    They should absolutely not be allowed to put their children in the same danger they wish to put themselves in by not having them vaccinated. Laws should be in place if they aren't already.
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  6. #226
    I don't see the need for people to take flu shots honestly, provided you're healthy and not in danger as in being very old or have some other sickness that worsens you should you get some bug. Vaccines are stuff you get for dangerous diseases, and most of those are administered before adolescence so you really don't need more needles unless there are special circumstances, and flu isn't one of them;p

  7. #227
    I don't like flu shots. I mean for me. In my long life I have had the flu a couple time - maybe once every 5-6 years, and caught it the legit way. After it became hipster cool to get a flu shot i tried it a few times - and without a doubt when I got it the shot that same week - i got the flu. I know how a flu shot works, puts a little flu in you so your body learns how to fight that strain. But in all honesty I'd rather just get the flu every 1/2 decade - then purposely get the flu with a shot every year.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Spectral I got a question you might have an answer to.

    I've been told that the flu virus mutates or changes each season. How are scientists able to predict how it will mutate, and which vaccination will work on it? Will it ever get to a point where we can no longer create a vaccination because it has mutated beyond or capabilities?
    Basically, the strains that are chosen for each year's vaccine are taken by using an extensive surveillance network to try to get a handle early on on what the expected predominant strains will be. Trivalent and quadrivalent (specific for three or four strains) are then forumulated using the most common substrains of these strains. I'm under the impression that the reason we don't go with a greater number of valences is because of technical challenges. The whole enterprise is a huge source of potential error, and it makes it fairly difficult to get the sort of coverage that we'd get for less tricksy bugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    I've also heard that the avian flu is like 3 mutations from becoming an epidemic that could kill hundreds of million. Any truth?
    We don't really know. The reason the biomedical community was really, really wigged out in 2009 was because the strain in question was H1N1, which is the same major markers as the awful swine flu epidemic that killed so many millions. The truth is, we're not entirely clear on what makes for the difference just yet. It's entirely plausible that a super nasty strain could evolve, but it's not really something that we're likely to be able to predict until it's a bit too late; the estimates I've seen is that a strain of similar severity to what the world dealt with in 1918 would kill something on the order of 80 million. Scary stuff, and not as much to stop it as we might like.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 11:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    My point was that you were using a bad example to argue for flu vaccination. Also, putting on a seatbelt doesn't require you to go anywhere or do anything involved, so it's not comparable to getting vaccinated.
    I don't see how this is a bad example. My point isn't that everyone's at equal risk, it's that many people who think they have no risk have some, and it's not entirely trivial.

    Things don't have to be literally identical to be comparable. If you want something that has a bit of travel and expense involved, I recommend that people wear bicycle helmets, even though they're not free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Yeah, people are selfish. Not really news or anything. I'm basically just saying why it's not a big deal for people to them, and if your argument comes down to reducing the risk to others, not a lot of people are going to care. I think it's also perfectly understandable to hold such a point of view. People are busy enough dealing with their own shit. Plus, having to get a vaccination every year makes people skeptical about their effectiveness. Also understandable for somebody who isn't educated on the subject.
    In the great board o' game theory that is life, freeriding is surely the better strategy. I'm relying on the goodness of people's hearts! Wish me good luck...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 11:02 AM ----------

    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    I don't see the need for people to take flu shots honestly, provided you're healthy and not in danger as in being very old or have some other sickness that worsens you should you get some bug. Vaccines are stuff you get for dangerous diseases, and most of those are administered before adolescence so you really don't need more needles unless there are special circumstances, and flu isn't one of them;p
    At what threshold of deaths/year would you consider a disease dangerous?
    Last edited by Spectral; 2012-11-11 at 04:12 PM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by LazyJones View Post
    Hell, I think there's a good movie script in that...
    The FINAL film in the Resident Evil series, perhaps:

    A handful of survivors fighting for their lives in a world overrun with zombies... Until they realize that the zombies are right, becuase of their numbers.
    I'm fairly certain that's the plot of I am Legend.

    At least, the original I am Legend, and the original ending of the Will Smith version (before it was changed due to being unpopular with test audiences).

  10. #230
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    snip
    Good stuff, thanks for the info. I've been terrified of epidemics ever since I saw "Outbreak" in the 90s. That movie is a classic.
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't see how this is a bad example. My point isn't that everyone's at equal risk, it's that many people who think they have no risk have some, and it's not entirely trivial.

    Things don't have to be literally identical to be comparable. If you want something that has a bit of travel and expense involved, I recommend that people wear bicycle helmets, even though they're not free.
    The reason it's a bad example is that it was still very similar to the seasonal flu in its demographic of victims and that vaccines provided basically no protection. To go to the bicycle helmet example, it's kinda like pointing out how a person without a helmet died via being hit by a bus that also hit and killed a person wearing a helmet.

    I mean, I'm all for vaccinations, but the H1N1 example isn't the best. I think a better example would be one where vaccinations largely protected people.

    At what threshold of deaths/year would you consider a disease dangerous?
    One where somebody they knew had died or one where the media gives it any sort of serious coverage.

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  12. #232
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagdar View Post
    If the flu shot was actually super effective i would. You already have plenty of cases in this topic only of ppl that got the vaccine and still got the flu. And i know you can't get the flu via the vaccine.
    I don't regard anecdotal evidence as valid in a scientific arena.
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  13. #233
    I refuse to get the flu shot because it causes the flu more often than it helps prevent you from getting it.
    I haven't had the flu in more than 4 years.


  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Your immune system isn't a body builder that just needs a certain amount of exercise to get to a necessary threshold. The way immunity against pathogens works is that your body needs targeted immunity against things that the pathogens produce. That's what vaccines do - they "teach" your immune system to recognize the things it needs to recognize. In a few select cases, natural infection provides superior long lasting immunity to vaccination, but influenza isn't one of those cases.
    You are right, its not a body builder. Thats really not what I meant though. But there are definitely ways you can improve it. Eat well, keep the bacteria in your stomach in check (keep the bad low and the good high), and stay active and your immune system gets stronger.
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  15. #235
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I don't regard anecdotal evidence as valid in a scientific arena.
    Cause a wow off-topic board is a serious scientific arena.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    Cause a wow off-topic board is a serious scientific arena.
    Well people are trying to use it to discredit actual scientists...

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagdar View Post
    If the flu shot was actually super effective i would. You already have plenty of cases in this topic only of ppl that got the vaccine and still got the flu. And i know you can't get the flu via the vaccine.
    And yes... you can get the flue from the vaccine. It has dead or partially dead flu germs IN IT. If they aren't all the way dead and your immune system doesn't immediately respond to it then you get the flu. I've seen it happen many times.


  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    That works. Maybe the best phrasing would be "correlation suggests causation". I generally think Bayesian logic is the best approach to evaluating whether the correlation has anything to do with causation.
    I believe the author of xkcd once said something along the lines of "correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its finger suggestively and say 'look over here!'"

  19. #239
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceberg265 View Post
    You are right, its not a body builder. Thats really not what I meant though. But there are definitely ways you can improve it. Eat well, keep the bacteria in your stomach in check (keep the bad low and the good high), and stay active and your immune system gets stronger.
    Except that is not how it works. You can still contract and die from a contagious disease regardless of how "strong" your immune system is.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    The reason it's a bad example is that it was still very similar to the seasonal flu in its demographic of victims and that vaccines provided basically no protection. To go to the bicycle helmet example, it's kinda like pointing out how a person without a helmet died via being hit by a bus that also hit and killed a person wearing a helmet.

    I mean, I'm all for vaccinations, but the H1N1 example isn't the best. I think a better example would be one where vaccinations largely protected people.
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we can't vaccinate against H1N1; the efficacy wasn't anywhere near 100%, but it was on the order of ~70%. I'd love to see it get better than that, but it actually makes a bike helmet a pretty good comparison. Sure, you could get hit by a bus, but there's not really any drawback to it and it can save you from severe injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    One where somebody they knew had died or one where the media gives it any sort of serious coverage.
    Unfortunately, I'm sure you're correct here.

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