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  1. #201
    You know what Flu shots are? They basically give you the flu, but its supposed to be a weakened version so that your body can kill it and develop a defense against it.

    Personally I never ever get flu shots. I think its stupid. And guess what? I almost never get the flu.

    When I do get the flu, it only lasts a day or two. Whereas if I were to get the flu shot, my arm would be killing me for two weeks. Why anyone gets flu shots is a mystery to me. Build up your immune system instead.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I've never gotten a flu shot. I don't know if it costs money or whatever, haven't really bothered to check because I'm absolutely terrified of needles. Most people have a general dislike, but I fucking hate them.
    I think this is a pretty good reason to not get a flu vaccine if you're otherwise healthy and you don't work with children or the elderly. I think most people would grant that an actual phobia is a perfectly good excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    If you look at that link, it also mentions that nearly half of patients had an underlying condition. It also mentions that over a third of the deaths were from people under 16 and about 5% from people over 64. Together those groups represented over 40% of the deaths but only ~25% of the population. Another thing about that article is that it's about a strain that vaccines provided basically no protection against anyway.
    I don't really know what you're driving at. Most people (including me) are well aware that the young, the elderly, and the immunocompromised are at substantially increased risk. In the case of the '09 outbreak, this was actually fairly unusual to see so many healthy, prime of their life people die, that's correct. My point wasn't that every single person is at equal risk, it's that people who are in the lower risk groups believing that they can't die from influenza are off base. They're the equivalent of a 42 year old female driver saying, "the risk of me dying is quite low, especially relative to other groups, so I don't be wearing a seat belt".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    As for more regular flu strains, going from data on the US, the highest death rate for the disease was approximately 1 flu death for every 6300 people in the country, with the highest deaths being in the very young and the very old. For the average young, healthy adult in their 20s and 30s, the flu simply isn't a big deal on a personal level.
    Except for, you know, the times that it is. Also, it's a remarkably selfish attitude to say, "I probably won't die from this, so I'm fine with increasing the risk to others who could die from it".

  3. #203
    Bloodsail Admiral Kagdar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    More evidence of history being a critical subject of study, to my mind. It is only through vaccinations that we have eliminated or at the very least marginalised diseases like smallpox, diptheria, tetanus, polio, etc. Before vaccines these diseases were scourges of humanity.
    There is still a difference with the regular flu i.e. influenza and other kind of flu i.e. H1N1. The flu shot works really great against the first one (influenza) but is not really effective against the stronger/deadlier versions of the flu (H1N1 etc.)

    I never had any flu shot and i don't want any until i'm really old and or weakened by other deseases. My immune system is working great as of now, i never get sick other than a cold sometimes and i don't over use sanitary product. I've never washed my hands before eating (except if i have really dirty hands) i prefer to eat germs and get used to them. Ok, if i have a cold i will wash my hands, watch where i sneeze etc, but it's so other ppl don't get my cold, i already have the cold i can't really give it to myself more.

    Most of germs that live around us are actually benifical to us, yet they are the ones sanitizing product will destroy...

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Lol no shit? I didn't know that.

    I do know, however, that they stopped using thimerosal in infant and child vaccines since 2001, and that autism rates have gone up since then. Maybe the thimerosal was preventing autism?!?
    Yeah, Andrew Wakefield. His data were incredibly tortured, very small samples, and obtained unethically. He's been stripped of his medical license. Of course, for the people that are really deep into conspiracies, him losing his license is just further evidence of how eeeeevil the vaccine pushers are.

  5. #205
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagdar View Post
    There is still a difference with the regular flu i.e. influenza and other kind of flu i.e. H1N1. The flu shot works really great against the first one (influenza) but is not really effective against the stronger/deadlier versions of the flu (H1N1 etc.)

    I never had any flu shot and i don't want any until i'm really old and or weakened by other deseases. My immune system is working great as of now, i never get sick other than a cold sometimes and i don't over use sanitary product. I've never washed my hands before eating (except if i have really dirty hands) i prefer to eat germs and get used to them. Ok, if i have a cold i will wash my hands, watch where i sneeze etc, but it's so other ppl don't get my cold, i already have the cold i can't really give it to myself more.

    Most of germs that live around us are actually benifical to us, yet they are the ones sanitizing product will destroy...
    You are aware of the definition of a strain is in virological terms, yes?

    By not getting the shots you are increasing the risk to yourself and others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    I always get the flu when I get "vaccinated," so I stopped getting the shot and stopped getting sick.
    I'd bet every single penny I've ever made and ever will make that you don't "get the flu" when you get vaccinated.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Except for, you know, the times that it is. Also, it's a remarkably selfish attitude to say, "I probably won't die from this, so I'm fine with increasing the risk to others who could die from it".
    This would be my reason for getting regular flu shots. I have a very good immune system. Even when I do get sick, which isn't often, it doesn't affect my ability to function much. But I know even before I start to have symptoms, I could be contagious, and other people might not have such protection.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Correlation does not imply causation.
    Well, it does imply it. If correlation didn't imply causation, it'd be almost impossible to study anything. It's just that correlation doesn't equal causation, and without an understanding of the underlying mechanisms for a given problem, we can't conclude that two things are causally related.

  9. #209
    Bleh never got a flu shot since well....I don't get sick from it. I have been around people with H1N1 and I showed no symptoms whatsoever. To me its wasted since the flu can mutate pretty fast and render the vaccine pretty useless. I guess it comes down to when its my time then its my time.
    Cheese. Its amazing. Until your feet smell like it.

  10. #210
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Well, it does imply it. If correlation didn't imply causation, it'd be almost impossible to study anything. It's just that correlation doesn't equal causation, and without an understanding of the underlying mechanisms for a given problem, we can't conclude that two things are causally related.
    Varying definitions of the word imply: it can indicate the possibility of it, but it does not imply as in indicate the definitive probability of it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zechs-cenarius View Post
    Bleh never got a flu shot since well....I don't get sick from it. I have been around people with H1N1 and I showed no symptoms whatsoever. To me its wasted since the flu can mutate pretty fast and render the vaccine pretty useless. I guess it comes down to when its my time then its my time.
    Replace the flu with any other contagious disease and you'll see how silly this statement is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by iceberg265 View Post
    Personally I never ever get flu shots. I think its stupid. And guess what? I almost never get the flu.

    When I do get the flu, it only lasts a day or two.
    You've never had the flu then. Recovery from influenza in a day or isn't possible. While you might never get the flu, you also might never be in a car wreck, yet you probably wear a seat belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by iceberg265 View Post
    Whereas if I were to get the flu shot, my arm would be killing me for two weeks. Why anyone gets flu shots is a mystery to me. Build up your immune system instead.
    Your immune system isn't a body builder that just needs a certain amount of exercise to get to a necessary threshold. The way immunity against pathogens works is that your body needs targeted immunity against things that the pathogens produce. That's what vaccines do - they "teach" your immune system to recognize the things it needs to recognize. In a few select cases, natural infection provides superior long lasting immunity to vaccination, but influenza isn't one of those cases.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Lol no shit? I didn't know that.

    I do know, however, that they stopped using thimerosal in infant and child vaccines since 2001, and that autism rates have gone up since then. Maybe the thimerosal was preventing autism?!?
    I kinda feel like the autism rates going up is due in large part to increased diagnosis. It seems like any kid who is just a little bit weird is diagnosed as autistic.


    Also, people who are like "I don't get flu shots because I kept getting the flu after I got them" you should know that a flu shot cannot cause an infection, it uses dead flu cells (at least the ones around here, some used to use small amounts of weakened live virus). You should also know that there's no such thing as the 24-hour flu or a stomach flu. There is, however, a thing known as foodborne illness. It's not one disease itself but an array of illness caused by many different bacterium and viruses. Even if you kill what's in the food, it could have still left behind toxins that would cause symptoms life vomiting.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Varying definitions of the word imply: it can indicate the possibility of it, but it does not imply as in indicate the definitive probability of it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:44 AM ----------



    Replace the flu with any other contagious disease and you'll see how silly this statement is.
    Except for the fact we are talking about the flu shot. Perhaps now you see how silly your statement is with regards to this thread.
    Cheese. Its amazing. Until your feet smell like it.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Varying definitions of the word imply: it can indicate the possibility of it, but it does not imply as in indicate the definitive probability of it.
    That works. Maybe the best phrasing would be "correlation suggests causation". I generally think Bayesian logic is the best approach to evaluating whether the correlation has anything to do with causation.

  15. #215
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
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    Spectral I got a question you might have an answer to.

    I've been told that the flu virus mutates or changes each season. How are scientists able to predict how it will mutate, and which vaccination will work on it? Will it ever get to a point where we can no longer create a vaccination because it has mutated beyond or capabilities?

    I've also heard that the avian flu is like 3 mutations from becoming an epidemic that could kill hundreds of million. Any truth?
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

  16. #216
    Bloodsail Admiral Kagdar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    You are aware of the definition of a strain is in virological terms, yes?

    By not getting the shots you are increasing the risk to yourself and others.
    If the flu shot was actually super effective i would. You already have plenty of cases in this topic only of ppl that got the vaccine and still got the flu. And i know you can't get the flu via the vaccine.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I kinda feel like the autism rates going up is due in large part to increased diagnosis. It seems like any kid who is just a little bit weird is diagnosed as autistic.
    You're right, I think; this is the generally accepted explanation. I'm not sure it covers the issue entirely, and I don't want to chase away people that want to study whether there's an actual increase in rate of occurrence, but it's pretty clear that changing diagnosis criteria has the biggest effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Also, people who are like "I don't get flu shots because I kept getting the flu after I got them" you should know that a flu shot cannot cause an infection, it uses dead flu cells (at least the ones around here, some used to use small amounts of weakened live virus). You should also know that there's no such thing as the 24-hour flu or a stomach flu. There is, however, a thing known as foodborne illness. It's not one disease itself but an array of illness caused by many different bacterium and viruses. Even if you kill what's in the food, it could have still left behind toxins that would cause symptoms life vomiting.
    This is a good explanation. I wish I could get people to stop using "flu" interchangeably with "a cold".

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't really know what you're driving at. Most people (including me) are well aware that the young, the elderly, and the immunocompromised are at substantially increased risk. In the case of the '09 outbreak, this was actually fairly unusual to see so many healthy, prime of their life people die, that's correct. My point wasn't that every single person is at equal risk, it's that people who are in the lower risk groups believing that they can't die from influenza are off base. They're the equivalent of a 42 year old female driver saying, "the risk of me dying is quite low, especially relative to other groups, so I don't be wearing a seat belt".
    My point was that you were using a bad example to argue for flu vaccination. Also, putting on a seatbelt doesn't require you to go anywhere or do anything involved, so it's not comparable to getting vaccinated.

    Except for, you know, the times that it is. Also, it's a remarkably selfish attitude to say, "I probably won't die from this, so I'm fine with increasing the risk to others who could die from it".
    Yeah, people are selfish. Not really news or anything. I'm basically just saying why it's not a big deal for people to them, and if your argument comes down to reducing the risk to others, not a lot of people are going to care. I think it's also perfectly understandable to hold such a point of view. People are busy enough dealing with their own shit. Plus, having to get a vaccination every year makes people skeptical about their effectiveness. Also understandable for somebody who isn't educated on the subject.

    Now, if we came out with a vaccine that would somehow protect against influenza every year at comparable efficacy to the polio vaccine, then people would be all on board with it.

    Example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagdar View Post
    If the flu shot was actually super effective i would. You already have plenty of cases in this topic only of ppl that got the vaccine and still got the flu. And i know you can't get the flu via the vaccine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This is a good explanation. I wish I could get people to stop using "flu" interchangeably with "a cold".
    Yeah, both infections are on the tame side of things in the eyes of the majority, so that won't happen any time soon.
    Last edited by v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk; 2012-11-11 at 04:01 PM.

  19. #219
    Bloodsail Admiral Kagdar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Spectral I got a question you might have an answer to.

    I've been told that the flu virus mutates or changes each season. How are scientists able to predict how it will mutate, and which vaccination will work on it? Will it ever get to a point where we can no longer create a vaccination because it has mutated beyond or capabilities?

    I've also heard that the avian flu is like 3 mutations from becoming an epidemic that could kill hundreds of million. Any truth?
    Yes the flu virus mutate each seasons. The vaccine actually tries to target the common patern in the different flu virus, but it's such a small portion of the virus that it's not super effective.

  20. #220
    No I don't get flu shots, but most of my family does due to Diabetes, etc.

    Yes, the Jenny McCarthy vaccination-autism conspiracists are perfectly welcome to contract and fall to every single disease and condition that vaccinations have protected and spared us from since their conception.

    They should absolutely not be allowed to put their children in the same danger they wish to put themselves in by not having them vaccinated. Laws should be in place if they aren't already.

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