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  1. #1
    Field Marshal Senit's Avatar
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    Garalon: They just couldn't let us have one, could they?

    I get the whole, "Rogues deserve to be shit for a while because they were good last patch" thing, but how long is this going to last?
    "¡Ustedes no tienes nadie mas para pelear! ¡Llena tus bolsillos y dejarse en paz, o quedar y pelear conmigo, y morir!"
    Senit UI -- outdated. Update... soon... maybe...

  2. #2
    i assume your talking about the cleave FIX?
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos- View Post
    I literally die every time i see people using literally wrong.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Whyevernot's Avatar
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    Do you always play with your head up your arse?

    They were doing bugged damage. I agree rogues arent the best around, but that doesnt mean that they should completely blow other classes out on any fight.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Senit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
    i assume your talking about the cleave FIX?
    Yeah. The "fix" the eliminates the only reason you'd bring a rogue to HoF in the first place.
    "¡Ustedes no tienes nadie mas para pelear! ¡Llena tus bolsillos y dejarse en paz, o quedar y pelear conmigo, y morir!"
    Senit UI -- outdated. Update... soon... maybe...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Senit View Post
    Yeah. The "fix" the eliminates the only reason you'd bring a rogue to HoF in the first place.
    No, they can still cleave and do higher damage than non cleaves.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Senit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whyevernot View Post
    Do you always play with your head up your arse?

    They were doing bugged damage. I agree rogues arent the best around, but that doesnt mean that they should completely blow other classes out on any fight.
    Please, rogues aren't on par with other classes right now. If we don't have fights where we pull ahead, then what exactly is our purpose?
    "¡Ustedes no tienes nadie mas para pelear! ¡Llena tus bolsillos y dejarse en paz, o quedar y pelear conmigo, y morir!"
    Senit UI -- outdated. Update... soon... maybe...

  7. #7
    fixing bad design (low rogue dmg) with even more bad design (stacking shitty equipped rogues as an encounter strat) isn't a good solution.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Senit View Post
    Please, rogues aren't on par with other classes right now. If we don't have fights where we pull ahead, then what exactly is our purpose?
    Not according to raid bots. Rogues are fine (pve). we all have weaker fights, but i can tell you this.... our rogue stunk it up early in MV normals. But the scaling with more haste on gear (as noted by GC), is tremendous and they are basically in line with expectations as you get out of the blues.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Senit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ril-gania View Post
    fixing bad design (low rogue dmg) with even more bad design (stacking shitty equipped rogues as an encounter strat) isn't a good solution.
    True, but it's better than no solution, isn't it?

    And I'm not talking about momentarily filling half the raid with rogues. I'm talking about letting competent players exercise their ability to DPS, which has otherwise been squandered by poor class design.
    "¡Ustedes no tienes nadie mas para pelear! ¡Llena tus bolsillos y dejarse en paz, o quedar y pelear conmigo, y morir!"
    Senit UI -- outdated. Update... soon... maybe...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Senit View Post
    Please, rogues aren't on par with other classes right now. If we don't have fights where we pull ahead, then what exactly is our purpose?
    Well, I thought raiding was fun -- that was the purpose. But if you're part of the small minded that has to top meters, you can always roll alts. I have a friend who in Cata had all classes at 85. The class "flavor" of the current patch is what he played because he always has to have a "purpose".

    Currently in Mists, he already has 7 of them to level 90. Funnily enough, the rogue is still at 85.

  11. #11
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    Gotta love it when some feel they are inadequate if they don't top the damage meters, yes it is nice to see your name near the top but it is not the end of the world. Unless you are in a strict guild that requires you to pull high numbers.

  12. #12
    We are not "shit". I'm not sure why you think we are.

  13. #13
    Nowhere near what i was in DS (even though i never got a legendary), however im still definately pulling my weight

    i still consider myself as a rogue to have garalon. previously i was able to do more DPS than the RPS (shy of 1) while tanking, now im expecting to only do 4-5 times the DPS of the other tank while tanking.

  14. #14
    So, a fight that is bugged to not behave AS INTENDED, when it is fixed (and quickly at that), is cause to complain?

    If it had not boosted Rogues, but the other classes, you'd have been screaming for them to fix it if it took more than even a single day, cause they were "abusing broken mechanics you couldn't".

    Basically, you are mad they fixed it cause it affected you, but if it hadn't, you'd be mad if they didn't fix it.
    Games are not necessarily "easier" today. You are just a better player.
    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
    Many players expect to be wow'd with every release of a beloved franchise.
    These are generally NOT the fault of the developers, but the fault of many players over-hyping and/or setting expectations too high.

  15. #15
    I think "fix" and "not working as intended" are just total BS. Mirroring damage done with buffs/debuffs has been that way until now. It was clearly intended or it wouldn't have gone on for years. What it really is, is they just now decided they didn't like that design and changed it. It isn't a fix as it wasn't broken before as it was intended to do that. They simply apparently forgot to change this specific mechanic.

    The only thing that annoys me about this is that they are changing it in the middle. Blade flurry is a dumb mechanic anyway, and even without mirroring the 200%, we will still be really strong on that fight.

    @OP
    You're being kinda stupid about this. The two main reasons to not bring a rogue to HoF are because we are melee or because we don't have raid cds. Our damage is fine. Our personal survivability is fine. I mean seriously, they lowered our damage on a fight we will still probably top damage on. The only way that really matters is if your entire raid is wiping because of the damage difference.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I think "fix" and "not working as intended" are just total BS. Mirroring damage done with buffs/debuffs has been that way until now. It was clearly intended or it wouldn't have gone on for years.
    That's like saying finding a cure for cancer is total BS because cancer has always been that way until now.
    Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it is right or supposed to be that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    What it really is, is they just now decided they didn't like that design and changed it.
    Congratulations, you just discovered that nature of evolution and improvement. How do you think the game evolved over 8 years? Changing, improving, adding, removing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    It isn't a fix as it wasn't broken before as it was intended to do that.
    They said it was not intended --> Blue-Tracker, so why argue otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    They simply apparently forgot to change this specific mechanic.
    And therefore changed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    The only thing that annoys me about this is that they are changing it in the middle.
    Fixing an unintended mechanic. And when would you rather they'd have done it? Never?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Blade flurry is a dumb mechanic anyway, and even without mirroring the 200%, we will still be really strong on that fight.
    Agreed. Blade Flurry mechanics need revising.
    Last edited by Topcraft; 2012-11-11 at 10:01 PM. Reason: spelling
    Originally Posted by Vaneras
    Soon™ ;-)

  17. #17
    Don't want to get into this discussion but would just like to weigh in on this point out of a progress point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Topcraft View Post
    [...]
    Fixing an unintended mechanic. And when would you rather they'd have done it? Never?
    [...]
    Changing it on a Tuesday (US) / Wednesday (EU) would be 10x better than what they did here. Even though the blue post says "after realm restarts", the nerf was live (on EU servers at least) within an hour of the post. If Garalon wasn't as easy as he is it could be a major clusterfuck if they change a mechanic like this within the first week of heroic progression.

    What they did on Elegon, for example, was handled very well. They screwed up big time on heroic with the add explosions not doing any damage but didn't fix it until the new ID started to give everyone a fair chance.
    Last edited by Ashvael; 2012-11-11 at 10:31 PM.

  18. #18
    Blade Flurry no longer works at all or what? Becaue I can swear it did for our rogue today. Also you're great at soaking the cleave with feint so you still really want a rogue on this fight, they just fixed it so other melee classes actually become viable on this fight and don't have to play on their shitty alts.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Topcraft View Post
    That's like saying finding a cure for cancer is total BS because cancer has always been that way until now.
    Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it is right or supposed to be that way.
    Except (other than garalon) it isn't a fix because previously it wasn't broken. It was intended to do that. Thats like saying my car is broken because it isn't a porsche. You can replace it with a porsche, but it wasn't intended to be one. Cancer is, at least from my understanding, caused by an error in cell division essentially and therefore not intentional.

    Congratulations, you just discovered that nature of evolution and improvement. How do you think the game evolved over 8 years? Changing, improving, adding, removing.
    You seem to have failed at comprehending what I said. It is a change, you could argue an improvement. It is not a "fix" though (except for this one specific case, the mechanics change itself isn't a fix). BF on Halfus was working as intended.

    They said it was not intended --> Blue-Tracker, so why argue otherwise?
    And therefore changed it.
    No, what they said was the behavior on Garalon wasn't intended. Go read that again. They have since changed their stance on cleaves and meant to change the mechanic entirely and Garalon was unintentionally left as an exception. BF was absolutely intended to work that way previously... they didn't miss a giant ass mistake like that for years... you really think they are that dumb?

    Fixing an unintended mechanic. And when would you rather they'd have done it? Never?

    Agreed. Blade Flurry mechanics need revising.
    I would rather them have done it before HoF was live. I'm sure some rogue tested that on the beta when they did raid testing... Alternatively, I would rather them have waited until their first 5% debuff. Changing it now essentially buffs a boss after lots of people have done it which is just dumb. Now I do agree with Ash that it probably won't be a big deal for most people, but buffing a boss after people have killed it is just dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Blade Flurry no longer works at all or what? Becaue I can swear it did for our rogue today. Also you're great at soaking the cleave with feint so you still really want a rogue on this fight, they just fixed it so other melee classes actually become viable on this fight and don't have to play on their shitty alts.
    People are over exaggerating this. Cleaving is still going to be strong on Garalon, BF included. Not sure why you think melee are weak on this fight at all though assuming you have enough non melee to kite with pheromones...
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2012-11-11 at 10:39 PM.

  20. #20
    We're really arguing semantics of prior arguments when no one's actually disagreeing seriously at this point.

    I am disappointed about the mid-content change, but eh, it's done.

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